Full Series Rebels 4.01-4.02 - Heroes of Mandalore - Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Yay, I live westcoast and receive eastcoast time = Rebels @ 9:30 PM!
Andrew Kishino and Cary-Hiroyuki Tagawa!

Spoiler

Where did Tiber Saxon come from? Wish he had more buildup. (But Tobias Menzies was in Casino Royale, so that's cool!)
Nice to finally see Sabine's personal arc resolved. Good for her.
Clans are united against the Empire. Mandos vs stormies!

Is this how fans originally envisioned Mandalorians?

 

I definitely hope we see more of Mandalore in the future. We've only seen a few clans up until now... Kryze, Vizsla, Rook, Wren, Protectors, Saxon, Elda/Elder?
I think they'll be a huge part of the lore if Disney commissions a canon Old Republic story.

 

Please remember to use spoiler tags.

 

Sort of, though I'm personally more interested in going back to the Old Republic era and seeing one of the Jedi-Mandalorian wars, especially after the season 3 bluray extras. They've built up the Mandos too much for fighting stormtroopers to be too satisfying.

I thought the episodes were great with a few exceptions.


- Ezra's jetpack slapstick. Too much of this. I want to like this character but they do everything they can to make him obnoxious and silly. Why couldn't Sabine or one of the other Mandos just teach him to use a jetpack offscreen so we can skip this?

Spoiler

- Not killing Ursa and Tristan. I loved Ursa in the episode, and I understand how killing them might have thrown Sabine's arc into one of recovery rather than progress but I still the bait and switch was very cheap.

- I liked Sabine's dad but...why was he the one talking about their armor? He clearly isn't a warrior himself and likely has no armor, so are we getting any exposition from him of all characters?

- The choreography was fun, it was great seeing Bo-Katan and her two warriors come in and trash the Imps early on in episode 1 but a lot of the fights seemed to drag on way too long with noone hitting anything on either side.

 

DavrelKex

Please use spoiler tags.

Also don't edit a mods post. You've been warned before. I already added the spoiler tag for you. DavrelKex

 

I do believe there is a minor continuity mistake in these episodes.

Spoiler

They imply that prior to these events nobody knew about Sabines hand in creating the death machine. But last season it was heavily implied they did.

Sure, most of the anger in Legacy of Mandalore was focused on the fact that she left at all. And that could have worked well continuity wise, if not for a few lines that sticks out.

"When you ran away, it saved you" (Ursa to Sabine implying that the death machine was common knowledge, and put her in danger.)

"It's the only thing I could do to prevent the other clans from destroying us for what you did!" (Implying they know about the weapon and would wipe clan Wren out for it given the chance.)

"I didn't know the Empire would use the weapon I designed against our people!" (Confirming the implications above)

Pretty much the only justification I have for that is the developers thought everybody knew about the weapon in season 3, but reconsidered by the time of season 4. If we stretch it a bit I guess we could say it was just Bo Katan who didn't know (Who was the only one we see react to the revelation in the moment) and when they meet the other mandos a bit later this was the first time Sabine confronted the individuals from the other clans who were aware of it beforehand, which is why the act so hostile towards her. Still feels a bit of a stretch though.

 

Even with three lightsabers on their team, they do a fantastic job of never hitting anyone with them and instead seem content to cut guns in half and kick their enemies into submission.

A pity, but I suppose it can't be helped.

 

What are the rules for this season? Unless it was a unique time for the premiere, the episodes will first air at 12:30am Eastern. Should we wait until after the prime time airing (if there is one?)

edit: so 5:30 eastern/9:30 west is the daytime time slot. The episode did officially premier late last night however.

 

Spoiler

A bit disappointing opener. These episodes could have been much better if only Filoni & crew had the courage (and bigger budget) to experiment and make some risky decisions. But it looks like that despite all the talk about Season 4 being darker and episodic, it will still be the same old Rebels without any real changes. Which is fine, I still enjoy the show, but it could be so much better if they only directed it a bit more towards more adult themes and less slapsticky jokes sometimes.

Few additional points:
- Hera/Kanan moment - the highlight of these episodes for me.
- Immature Ezra continues - for an 18 year old who's been fighting a guerilla war for 4 years and killed thousands of people, he's still acting like a 12 year old kid most of the time.
- The animation continues to improve, but some of the fight choreography was really cartoonish. People shoot at each other from few metres and yet nobody can hit anyone.
- Tristan/Ursa survival was such a waste of a powerful dramatic scene. After this, I'm even more convinced that Ezra and the rest of Ghosts (minus Kanan) will survive for sure.
- Pity we didn't see the insides of Sundari, but I guess that's were the lack of budget comes in.
- A second Imperial-class Star Destroyer obliterated. Together with its crew of more than 45,000 men and women serving the Empire. And probably tens of thousands of Mandalorian civilians who died in the resulting explosion and debris crash.
- And the new Mandalore is a woman who committed ethnic cleansing, was a member of a terrorist organisation and supported an extremist who helped kill her sister. Pretty good references for that position actually, if we look at previous Mandalores from Legends.

Actually, this show is pretty dark, when you start thinking about the consequences of Rebels actions

 

Okay, a pretty good season premier, possibly tied with Steps Into Shadow.

Spoiler

Man that first half went by quick.

I liked Bo-Katan's reintroduction and the way she turned down the darksaber, but wish she had said 'Besides that thing killed my sister.' I also like that despite the fact that at first glance she's barley aged in seventeen years, the more we see of her the clearer it is that she has, even with a subtle scar on her forehead.

Tiber Saxon is so similar to Gar Saxon in appearance and personality I wonder why they bothered killing him off in Legacy of Mandalore. They have one moment where they talk about him but he's brushed off rather quickly.

I like Aldric but I wish we had gotten more of a reunion with he and his wife and son.

I admit, they fooled me into thinking Ursa and Tristan were dead, but I'm glad they're not, since it would have been a waste of characters. Though I do wish they would have made how they survived a bit more clear. And while I agree that it was a bit of a wasted opportunity to give Sabine someone to mourn and more of a grudge against the empire, I'm against killing characters who haven't been developed enough or without much personality yet unless necessary.

Sabine's secret weapon that's been built up is a pretty menacing one, I've always found vaporizing people a bit disturbing and I kinda liked how it was shown in that recording, but how did they record it? And that cut away was pretty lame. Though I like how they found a way for it not to kill Storm Troopers, kinda like how the Defoliator Tanks wouldn't kill Battle Droids.

I also kinda wish we had seen Sabine get genuinely mad and use the darksaber to kill some of Saxon's men.

'A Mandalorian with a jetpack is a weapon' That is such an awesome line, too bad Ezra had to follow it up with a stupid comment.

Speaking of Ezra I found him pretty irritating this episode.

Loved Thrawn's artistic take on the weapon and that he can find something meaningful, ironic, and even art-y in something so horrifying. And the fact that he sees its flaws and points out its limits shows his intelligence.

Also like how Hark actually points out that the Empire isn't above just using it on them.

Love how Bo-Katan snapped at Sabine, she actually got furious with her, and I admire the fact that they actually have a reason as to why they can't just get new armor, it's part of their heritage and cultural identity.

I like the fact that Sabine is so guilty and horrified by the weapon she doesn't even want to use it against the Empire, shows she has a strong moral code.

Liked how Bo-Katan was a bit offended by the fact that Sabine named the weapon after Satine. 'It was a series of bad decisions, okay?'

I also like that Hark has a conscience, but that scene also enforces the whole 'why kill Gar Saxon and make someone exactly like him?' question from earlier.

Loved how Sabine turned it around, but not enough to kill them, showing that shes sticking to her morality. Her ironic echo to Saxon was fantastic. I also like how he was probably killed by 'The Duchess' blowing up in his face.

My one disappointment with these episodes is the budget: Hark's helmet never comes off, even when he's being zapped, doesn't speak highly of the budget and we don't go into the capital, nor do we see the Destroyer explode entirely when it hits the ground, which probably should have blown a hole in the dome. It's kinda sad that Disney is one of the richest companies in the world, yet can't spare an extra million to make one of their biggest shows look better.

There's also the fact that Disney's censors are ridiculous. Lightsabers aren't allowed to kill anyone and people a few meters away from each other can't hit one another, and Ezra still acts too young for his age.

I mean, it gets ridiculous that they can't have Kanan and Sabine kill people with lightsabers, yet they get away with disturbing and violent content on Gravity Falls; The Shapeshifter in 'Enter the Bunker' on Gravity Falls got an axe slammed into its gut by the heroes for god's sake and the main villain literally said "I have some children I need to turn into corpses' and on Star vs The Forces of Evil, one of the main villains was literally reduced to a melting skeletal torso by Star, fifteen year old girl. Yet Star Wars, a series known for violence and deaths, can't get away with a few glowing slash marks?

 

Good little episode, it had some wonderfully great moments bogged down by a few eye rolling moments.

Spoiler

The hightlights:
- Kanan and Hera's conversation. It was nice to be reminded that the two of them are meant to be romantically involved.
- Thrawn going off like an art critic was great, you can feel the raw hatred coming from him.
- The ending for episode 1 was beautifully done, it was dark and raised the stakes for Sabine.

And the low points:
- That fantastic ending for part 1 lost it's impact when Sabine's mother and brother somehow survived a weapon that's meant to be unavoidable. Definitely a cop out.
- I cannot believe Saxon was that stupid to just stand there and let Sabine obviously sabotage the weapon. I guess he thinks just as well as a Stormtrooper shoots. Then again the Mandalorians were poor shots too.
- Ezra. Seeing him fly about like a joker with the jetpack was like watching C-3PO fight on Geonosis, only that's his only character trait these days.

It was fine fun sure, but I need to let the critic in me come out sometimes. It was nice to see Bo-Katan again but it wasn't really her story.

 

Good episode but I hope they move onto Yavin (Alliance) now and finish with the Mandalorian stuff. For some reason it never appeals to me.

 

Rebels. Watery soup. Getting watery-er every season.

Spoiler

Con:

-I don't care about Sabine's family. I don't care, I don't care, I don't care. No one cracks a (funny) joke, no one has a personality that isn't 'hard-ass' or 'gentle'. Don't care if they live, don't care if they die.

-Ezra reached a peak in Season 2 then degenerated or something.

-"I won't kill you because that makes me bad, but I'll leave you to die horribly in a molten metal explosion lololol" Christ, stop using this cliche. At the very least stop contradicting yourself when using it.

Pro:

-Mandalorians being incinerated by the Sheevcannon. Thank you Based Sheev.

 

A good episode.

Spoiler

Obviously the main appeal to me was Bo-Katan. I figured she'd reemerge at some point during the Mandalorian stories in Rebels. I guess the one part that kind of rubbed me the wrong way was how she so quickly changed her attitude from one scene to another with Sabine. When she tossed her against the wall, that was the Bo-Katan I remember from TCW. Then she essentially defends her against the other Mandalorians when it was revealed about the weapon that Sabine had developed. Maybe it's just me; but seeing a non-vengeful Bo-Katan doesn't seem right. At least they gave some acknowledgement to the Dutchess Satine. She was part of easily one of the most memorable episodes of TCW.

 

Great start to season 4. Both episodes were very good. Good jetpack action in both of these episodes. I'm glad things went the way they went. I just hope Sabine stays with the Ghost and the jetpack for the remainder of the season. I think it will be fun.

Once this season is over, Marvel has to do some comic books in this era. There are still stories to tell that don't have to end up on animation you know.

 

This two parter fell flat for me. I know Rebels has a lower budget than Clone Wars, but the action felt especially dull and the environments even more so. I understand Mandalore is a wasteland, but they could have set some of the episode in the capital city or another settlement. I am happy to see Sabine finally getting some meaningful depth added to her character, though I still find her less interesting than Hera, Kanan or Ezra. This show has been frustrating me recently and has been failing to match the highs of season two. I give this two parter a 6/10.


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so where's the rebel recon?

 

Spoiler

The more I think about Bo-Katan, the more I think she should be the focus of a novel at some point. Her transition from terrorist willing to attack her own people and work with monsters like Vizsla and Maul to depose her own sister to a sympathetic, revered leader who's more or less sold to us as a hero seemed a bit jarring at first. I think her conversations with Sabine really did a lot to address this in small packages though. For one, the first time she's offered the saber, obviously she regrets losing Mandalore to the Empire and Clan Saxon, but I feel like she's also rejecting it because she carries a lot of guilt for who she used to be and doesn't feel like she deserves the respect she has. And I think the even more telling interaction is talking to Sabine about choosing between honor and fear. I get the impression she wrestled with that herself quite a bit after enabling the events that wound up with her sister murdered. It seems like a lot of soul searching followed and she had to figure out what was most important to her and her place as a Mandalorian. Seems like there's a lot of potential there to explore in other stories.

 

Having now seen both episodes in full, it's...

Spoiler

Heroes of Mandalore was easily the weakest premier to date. (IMO, Best to Worst: 2, 3, 1, 4)

"Hello, my name is Ezra Bridger, he who walked the line between the Light and Dark sides of the Force, he who faced down the Grand Inquisitor, Darth Vader, and Dathomirian Nightsister Specters without instantly dying. I'll be your comedic relief for this Premier."

In true Rebels fashion, nobody important dies and thus there goes whatever potential character development could've been had.
We're in the final stretch, surely someone close to the heroes could stand to kick the bucket.

Sure, it ends with a turning point for Mandalore, but are we ever going to see any of that?

Probably not.

Sure, people are probably tired of Mandalore plots, but there's still going to be those who want to know how/if/when Mandalore ever throws off the Imperial reigns and becomes independent again or if they'll be subjugated offscreen (the vicious cycle of Mandalore continues!)

Come Series Finale, we'll probably be wishing for another ten episodes to see the fallout of actions taken during each concluding story arc.

 

I enjoyed the episode despite several weaknesses it had story-wise- but this is Rebels- I don't expect it to be that good really... Rebels is more clearly for children than The Clone Wars was- that's why fights usually have very little casualties- good guys usually none. So what was bad in these episodes is bad in this whole show.

Spoiler

+ It was great to see Mandalore and Bo-Katan again
+ Sabine was a little bit less Mary Sue this time.... a little bit less... I liked the way she tortured that Saxon fellow Evil Sabine!
+ Bad guys actually got some kills- unnamed red shirt mandalorians but still.... they actually hit their target.... or at least something... every time that happens in Rebels it's a positive thing.

- Ezra with jetpack is twice as annoying.... and it was not fun at all
- Stormtroopers and imperial mandos don't even try to hit our heroes.... what if they would actually miss just a bit, not ten meters... I mean having blaster bolts hit close when you're in cover at least provides some sense of danger- but in Rebels you don't even need to take cover- you can just stand on an empty field when stormtroopers shoot somewhere and hit nowhere close while there is absolutely nothing else there.... I mean come on- they could make it look like they are trying- but in rebels they seem to know in-universe that their enemy cannot hit them anyway- let's not even care about those incoming blaster bolts....
- Yeah I get the moral behind destroying the Duchess, but weapon that would turn stormtrooper armor against all imperials would be very great to have in possession of the Rebel Alliance(you could just use it to incapacitate imperial troops- no need for mass genocide or anything).... oh well that would ruin the OT-continuity and all...but still you don't have to be Saw Gerrera to agree that it would have been VERY useful....
- Way they let us to believe Sabine's mom and brother actually died in the blast and then revealed they didn't (Sabine's character shield is so strong it protects her entire family) .... For a moment I thought we actually had a tragic scene there, actually some good storytelling... the great irony that Sabine's own creation kills her own family.... but then I remembered it's Rebels and nothing cool like that can really happen.

I hope we don't see Mandalore again in this show- mandalorians are cool but they deserve show that is bit more mature and dark- they are warriors - they kill and are killed, and that's not really suitable for kid's show.... I don't think we need to see more mandalorian civil war in rebels anyway.

 

I, for one, do not need violence and death to enjoy Star Wars. Again, the Game Of Thrones effect. It was never the main draw of Star Wars. I think Rebels has captured the themes of the OT whereas TCW captured that of the PT. Both trilogies has rather different tones. How can one expect Rebels to be like TCW?

That said, the episode did have flaws and was far from perfect.

Mary Sue? What we've seen from Sabine is nothing out of continuity throughout Star Wars history. I would've seen the merit behind this if it wasn't for the latter half of Season 3 and 4's premier establishing that she isn't perfect.

 

Ezra's line in the second episode:

Spoiler

"Mandalorian? I don't want to be a Mandalorian."

A possible hint what could happen with Ezra at the end of the series?

 

I really enjoyed it. Though as others have said it didn't really feel like a series opener. More like wrapping up Sabine's Mandalore arc.

Spoiler

TBH I would probably have preferred Sabine's mother and brother to have actually died at the end of part 1. Them surviving felt like it robbed some of the emotional weight from that ending. This arc was about Sabine's journey and backing away from their deaths felt like it robbed took away some story potential and would have added more weight to Sabine not using the weapon to kill at the end.

As much as everything, in season 3 and this opener, seemed to build naturally to Sabine becoming the new leader, I'm glad they went with Bo Katan. It might not be quite as organic but it means we get Sabine back with the Ghost crew where she belongs.

I have to agree a little with everyone saying Ezra's comic relief felt a bit out of place. I enjoyed it but it doesn't really fit where his character should be right now (I'd actually forgotten how old he should be until someone mentioned it in this thread!)

Now that this story is wrapped up, hopefully next week's 2 parter will feel like the real opener for this season.