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Lit Rebirthing Legends ideas in new canon by transferring them to new characters, locations, eras etc.

Discussion in 'Literature' started by ColeFardreamer, Apr 6, 2020.

  1. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2013
    I know currently TFN Lit lives for headcanons, One canons and the like to either preserve Legends and merge it with new canon, or celebrate it still in its own topics. But, we see LFL more and more resurrect old ideas and concepts for new stories. Star Wars Rebels brought back Thrawn and gave him a new era to play in, Rogue One drew inspiration in part from Legends tales that had the same mission and we see a lot of storylines, ideas and concepts rebirthed in a new place, era and attached to new people. While I like many others would prefer the original over the copycat, how can LFL fit Legends stuff into new canon by redistributing it to a place where it would fit into new canon, without outright canonising said Legends element?

    F.e. The High Republic era smells as if it is trying an explore the Unknown Regions story that Legends only scratched and did not follow up with. Ezra Bridger with his many teachers (Kanan, Ahsoka, Bendu, Yoda, the Force itself) becoming a true bridger has traces of Jacen Solos journey and love for animals (Purgills). LFL brought back lots of McQuarrie art in surprising new places, Alderaan became Lothal, Monument Plaza became partially Raxus Prime in TCW, and Terrarium City of Alderaan became TROS Mirror spires from the hyperspadce skipping scene, just to name a few. And while it did not happen yet, we know there were attempts to use Darth Talon alongside Darth Maul instead of in another era.


    How, when, where and why would you bring reshuffled ideas from Legends into new canon?

    Which ideas can be separated from their respective Legends characters, and which can't and why not?

    What type of character, ship, location, culture, etc. is missing in new canon that Legends had covered? And how/where would it fit?


    Might Abeloth be dealt with before the PT? Could the Vong face the Empire and Thrawn during the OT and loose? Might we get a YJK esque class of heroes growing together with the setup of Lukes academy destined to a dark end? Or how about Some good and noble First Order folks remniscient of the Fel family? Is Alphabet Squadron the new Rogues or Wraiths or something else entirely? Is Inferno Squad the new Katarn/Ors/etc. teamup given Cassian/Jyn are out of the picture to take that role post ROTJ? Might there be some Talon Karrde slumbering inside Maz Kanata or do we have Hondo for that? And how Hextropophon is Doctor Chelli Lona Aphra really when channelling her inner Voren Naal, which might have been more like her father?
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2020
  2. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 2016
    @ColeFardreamer

    Well the Sequel Trilogy now by retcon (And also expanded material) has become the Dark Empire plot mixed with the family drama of Legacy of the Force and the Jedi Prince series but with a more optimistic ending ;p.

    I could see Ezra in a strange way being a more natural successor to Jacen Solo in a weird way now that you mentioned it, more Jacen from what I know of him as a character. Unlike Ben who is just compared to Jacen because he's the Solo kid who turned Darkside but character wise they are doing their own thing (Not that that is a bad thing)

    I mean if you good pitch is the only answer I can give you, I don't think there is any real metric except be a good writer.

    Elaborate a bit more on this...Like.....IDK....people say characters like Kyle Katarn and Mara Jade seem a bit irrelevant now because A.) So many of what they are have been splintered into other characters. Cassian is a bit of a new Kyle Katarn in some ways...so is Kanan....and Mara Jade popularity came more from her Arc as Imperial Agent to Luke's Wife/Jedi Master....I mean you could still maybe do that .

    -Personally I say if you introduce Mara Jade make her a First Order Agent then close personal girlfriend of Rey's but that's just me

    -I think the Vong might not work anymore considering how LFL these day is VERY specific that EVERYONE has the force and what not with their new force rules.

    -If certain rumors are true we could see a Thrawn Empire of the Hand in some sort of fashion.

    Sith species is still missing and i'm curious if they'll outright confirm their existence and flesh them out.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2020
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  3. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    - Exar Kun could live in a different era than Ulic Qel-Droma and the Krath. Kun could even be the founder of the Sith.

    - The Sith species could replace the Rakata as a pre-Republic dark side empire and Vong as post-Saga invaders. The Star Forge could be a creation of the Sith species.

    - Darth Bane could create the Rule of Two in 2000 BBY or even earlier, hence Yoda knowing about the Rule of Two.

    - It was suggested in the ANH novelization that Jawas are descended from malnourished humans, dialogue in KOTOR suggests that Jawas aren’t native to Tatooine, and Star Wars Galaxies suggests that Jawas were once spacefaring. We could see some of these ideas canonized. Maybe the sandcrawlers were built by the Jawas’ better-nourished ancestors.

    - The Massassi seem to be connected to the Ordu Aspectu rather than to the Sith.

    - House Palpatine could be a long lineage of dark side users like House Nadd in TOTJ.

    - Rise of Skywalker could have had Sheev’s guards dress like Carnor Jax or like the Shadow Guards in The Force Unleashed.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2020
  4. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 2016
    @darklordoftech

    In a rumored older draft of TFA, they almost did....Would have been the founders or connected to Darth Ruin.

    So the Sith species is Rakata that becomes the Sith religion that eventually rules the Galaxy ?????
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2020
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  5. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    They’d have the look and the horror theme of the Sith species, and they would rule the galaxy before the Republic. And yes, they would be the origin of the Sith Order’s name, but here they’d be admired by the Sith Order rather than getting conquered by it.
     
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  6. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jul 9, 2016
    @ColeFardreamer

    I think something to keep in mind with this question and something perhaps that could be a good B-Topic in this main topic is...WHAT is the Star Wars universe Now....With Legends Star Wars sorta....all over the place.

    We had Zahn's militarism
    Vietch's Sword and Sorcerrers.
    and Denning's ...GOT but Star Wars dark and grim to say the least.

    The Disney Era mixed with the Lucas Era is trying to be I think a bit more...Cohesive in what Star Wars is...It's limits...It's ethos.....Tone, feeling ...Etc etc...So I think we have to look if things like "The Vong" can work with the Ethos/Tone/Feel/Mission Statement that Star Wars is trying to go for now without being completely compromised.

    Star Wars is lucky in that even in the new era I do think there is still a lot of wiggle room to evolve and expand but I don't think it's gonna be like 1 to 10 in terms of the different tones and vibes tried out.

    A interesting look.
     
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  7. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2013
    Can you quote the novelisation on that please?

    I'd like ancient spacefaring Jawas. Though I wonder how much their spacefaring refers to their ancestor species the Kumumgah rather than the Jawas. And what other descendants of them live elsewhere still in the gffa in a colony or former colony that evolved separate from Jawas and Tusken?

    Also given Tatooine is the planet of myth and prophetic importance... I'd throw in some ancient epic dealing with the Kumumgah and their last stand against Rakatan oppression despite even ancient superpowered species like Gree, Kwa and Sharu etc. fearing them. Make the Kumumgah the ordinary folks that were not special but stood up against the Rakata. Being nearly wiped out for it, they'll be the inspiration to the countless species that ultimately rise up and took the Rakata down!


    I agree, good addition and important to keep in mind for this topic indeed!
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2020
  8. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 2016
    @ColeFardreamer

    Another thing about adding in characters is....Why add a character when you sorta have a character like that now for the NuCanon.

    I take the example of Garm Bell Iblis not being in NuCanon....In reality he would have been very easy to make the transfer to NuCanon....However now...He's kinda no longer needed at least in the way we remember Garm

    Garm was sorta the rebel Leader opposed to Mon Mothma and her ways.

    Well, we already have that already Saw Gerrah....Who is the Rebel leader who is against Mon Mothma's ways....too the EXTREME!

    So Garm's main purpose in that regard seems kinds mute.


    Now again another Thrawn Trilogy favorite...Talon Karde....You could still possibly make him a post Jabba smuggler heck I could see him being a post First Order-Resistance War player as well in all honesty. So he still works since we don't have a NuCanon equivalent to him.
     
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  9. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    “Their cloaks were thickly coated with dust and sand. Unhealthy red-yellow pupils glowed catlike from the depths of their hoods as they studied their captive. The Jawas conversed in low gutteral croaks and scrambled analogs of human speech. If, as anthropologists hypothesized, they had ever been human, they had long since degenerated past anything resembling the human race.”
     
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  10. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2013
    Maz Kanata already is the Smuggler kingpin as Pirate Queen and information brokerer...

    Hondo Ohnaka the shady businessman side of him...

    So like Garm, his role is taken.




    Another issue I have with nuCanon is, that they give us terrible dark events where many people died, but those have no impact cause we did not know said people like at all. No named characters among the dead, like the massacre at Lukes Jedi Temple. Only afterwards did we get shown some characters knowing they would die anyway and were supposed to care for them in Rise of Kylo Ren.
    I wish to grow up along characters and then see their lifes through to whatever gruesome or not end they face. Yet Disney shrugs away from actually ever doing that by either saving their babies, i.e. Ahsoka from TCW. Or not showing their fate, Jedi Younglings from TCW youngling arc whose death was only in a vision of Yoda briefly in Yodas arc but never shown how / if they really died in Order 66.
    Likewise we get many interesting new characters but never hear from them again despite they could carry their own series or become recurring. Like all the forcesensitive characters that could potentially be in Lukes new academy (Jacen Syndulla, if forcesensitive born; etc., Baby Yoda, etc.) Also novel and young reader characters tend to vanish into obvlivion and not be used by other authors... or reduced to namedrop cameo only as in Resistance Reborn. Meanwhile Marvel has spawned some prominent characters that do recurr or got their own ongoing like Dr. Aphra. At least authors who work not just in one medium but several, were able to bring their characters back in other media like the Graf kids making the jump to comics in Tales from Vaders castle, IDW comics and some guidebooks using their family as inuniverse author.

    In that regard, bringing back Legends characters entire in nuCanon makes fans think, will they share the same fate as in Legends or not? Will Thrawn get his "but it was so artisically done" event, even without a Noghri? Will he get another end? Will the artsy end quote be transferred to someone else like... maybe Eli Vanto post ROTJ?
     
  11. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 2016
    @ColeFardreamer

    I'll say on your first part that it's defiantly going to be a difference of opinion in terms of how you want your universe to set up....I do understand though from a certain point of view the ....Canon but retcon approach to perhaps the Post Endor Era...30 year jump, tell events and then fill it in with characters and what not with pre-determined fates.

    But i also understand perhaps wanting to grow up with a character 1 year after Endor and watching them evolve to get to the Force Awakens.

    It might have made Luke's transition from how we see him in Return of the Jedi to how we see in Last Jedi a bit easier to swallow in that regard.

    I myself and not against retconning and adding things in later myself (I find it a bit clearer in some areas...though messier in others) but again I understand.

    Maybe High Republic will take more your more preferred way of introducing characters into canon.

    And also to be fair in the grand scheme of things I don't need to know their fate to be honest......If they serve a purpose to the story or if the story is told then it's told....Leave the end to the imagination (I do have days when I wish Star Wars was just the OT and been over with but that's on my more cynical days ;p)

    However again we are only FIVE years into NuCanon......Legends had 30 plus years....and quiet frankly you have to ask yourself if maybe Disney is just taking a different approach to how the NuCanon expands (Or retracts). It doesn't have to do what Legends did because I think it's not trying to be like Legends. So I think sometimes asking it to do things like Legends is somehow foolhardily when the entire point is it's not trying to be like Legends.

    I mean do i wanna see the in-between adventures of Luke, Han and Leia...Sure...But the EU (Post Endor) was made with the idea of just ongoing stories till the day the earth explodes (Lol) ....The ST i think is made with a bitt more of a ...mythological approach to it....to be a bit grander then an adventure of the week. Though with the movies ended we might start seeing some ongoing stuff that will introduce characters.

    One has to ask if the methodology of the storytelling is trying to be different to legends hence why we don't get those ongoing stories with characters because maybe to the story tellers ...Those characters just don't matter, because it's not about them, we don't need to see them.

    You don't have like it...But it's something to keep in mind and think about.

    Again it's all part of how the Nu Canon/ Disney Era/ Post Legends whatever wants to structure the universe itself differently from legends.

    Just wanna make it clear...You aren't wrong...and you don't have to like it...But it is a factor to consider obviously...All part of fun discussion. :D



    I am also curious about the idea of dividing up concepts or characters between multiple characters

    You brought up that Ezra as a Jacen Solo type character.

    So it would be interesting if the Character of Jacen Solo is divided between Ben, Ezra (Maybe a third character)

    Ben take Jacen side of -The Solo child who went to the Darkside

    Maybe Ezra becomes a more...Morally questionable character who sees the Light and the Dark differently to say Ashoka would, or Rey would.



    As for legends characters sharing the same fate....hmm...I mean I still want Thrawn's last words to be "It was so artistically done" just because that's a EPIC final line to go off of....But for all we know Thrawn might becomes....More good? IDK...He may not work for the Empire or care if we see him in the Post Jedi world...His story could be different....Nothing wrong with a re-invention.

    Stuff like that I think should just be a case by case basis and judged when it happens.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2020
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  12. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 24, 2013
    Regarding Thrawn I think we need to keep the line attached to him, but change the road towards it.

    I too see the notions you refered to that he may turn good. But I think, that may be misleading. I think his Empire of the Hand or whatever version of it nuCanon will do that is not the FO or may lead into the FO actually is as good intended as in Legends, but ultimately will be used for the opposite by the FO and Final Order. Thrawn may learn about the FO or Final Order and while complying with them, work against them from within maybe. So there you got a good Thrawn, but one that will fail epically with his famous last words. All he worked for, built up, set up... crashing down in front of him before he dies. Unable to prevent the coming of the Dark Empire, as in Legends where fans speculated he was working against it and wasn't recalled like other warlords for a reason.

    I could see Snoke, who was known to Leia, Han, Luke, take a stint out of the Unknown Regions and play Joruus C'baoth role. Encounter Luke, teach him, then fight him. In Rise of Kylo Ren he struck me as a Joruus type character, like the guardian of some strange knowledge repository or world he was on in the comic instead of Mount Tantiss. For all the dozens of EU paralells that mixed and mashed into Snoke already as of the ST, this post ROTJ pre ST Snoke could take some more cues. Some from Joruus, some from maybe Brakiss, who went undercover to the Jedi Academy studying there, and some more maybe from Jerec and his cabal who may mirror some Knights of Ren actions.

    In that regard, was Snokes appearance in public a reaction to something Thrawn did, to prevent Thrawns further machinations and actually pull the heroes, the Big Three on his side against Thrawn so they would take him out for Snoke and not believe any warning Thrawn might offer? Like maybe Thrawn was helping or working with none other than Rey's dad who must have had prominent help to get off Exogol and out of the UR alive!

    So you may get your good Thrawn still painted as evil and failing to spill the beans to the galaxy but achieving to save Sheevs son and his family from Exegol. Kinda the dark side version of J.F.Kennedy assassination, with Thrawn threatening to uncover something and so his allies (like the CIA with Kennedy) take him out and create coverup stories about it. Occhi might be the perfect dagger happy assassin to replace Rukh as Thrawns assassin actually! Before setting off to find Rey's parents.



    PS: Snoke also has some Vergere vibes for those that viewed her as secretly Sith / evil, which I did not buy at all. Maybe they could turn the Vergere concept on its head and have Ezra be the over the top grey guy ultimately, the bridger of all extremes, and Ahsoka the White as more traditional guiding Light Vergere variant, with Snoke the dark side Vergere variant.


    PS2: What I want to see in some way though most is a nuCanon version of Tenel Ka, however split up or mixed.
     
  13. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 2016
    @ColeFardreamer

    To be fair I don't NEED nor really WANT "Good Thrawn" but it's just something I could see happening.

    I sorta have my own idea of how I would want Thrawn's story to play out which is just a rip off of Ds9 to a degree.

    -Start with Thrawn and Ezra as allies against the Gryst.

    -The Gryst weaken the Chiss Ascendancy but the Ascendancy won't listen to Thrawn and this is where Thrawn starts to go back to his old habits again.

    - Rumors of the FO are around but we don't see them till later...But when we do, Thrawn makes a deal with them and allies with the FO to take over the Chiss Ascendancy have the Ascendancy join the FO, Thrawn seeing them as the Dominat player in the galaxy.

    -Then Ezra/Ashoka/Sabine whoever stop him, Thrawn has everything he works for crashing down, the FO plans to accelerate their operations in the galaxy may be pushed back (Or for all we know Snoke/Sidious may be okay with this)

    -Thrawn is defeated and he gets his famous last words.

    P.S If i could find a way for Thrawn and Palpatine to be directly connected as a homage to Dark Empire but actually acknowledging the Thrawn and Clone Palpatine story I would do that too.

    P.S.S: I'd actually have Thrawn go more into the mysticism of the Force since that was his downfall the first time and he would try and find a way to control the Force but in his own militaristic, scientific means but get his behind bitten because of it. Seeking out Mortis too and what not.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2020
  14. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 24, 2013
    To be honest, I love DS9 but I don't like the Grysk. I love Zahn, his writing style and what he did with them in his novels so far, but the species name and description somehow do not stick with me. Neither does their threat or importance. They to me look like a farce, a mockup threat or nothing serious that easy is dealt with but able to fool the Imperial fools, not the elite.

    If the Grysk were Vong as some fans paralelled them to (I do not share that opinion), I'd rather see them as the Vongs slave race Chazrach.

    But good call on Ezra, Sabine and Ahsoka. They need to be involved in any Thrawn business I think. If Thrawn gets Ezra to trust him, might Ezra open up about the WBW to Thrawn? Might Palpatine intend to use Thrawns bond with Ezra to get access? Might tie into Sith Eternal digging for it on Exegol as per VD.

    And now i kinda imagine the Ganner NJO death "bring on your thousands" etc. transplanted to the guardian of the WBW.. be it Ezra, or Ahsoka the White combining it with Gandalfs first sacrifice before he became the White. She already got the staff for it too!
     
  15. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    Hopefully the Jedi don’t constantly think the Sith are “extinct”. Legends left me wondering why Yoda didn’t say to Mundi and Windu, “Idiots, you two are. Extinct, the Sith always appear to be.”
     
  16. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 24, 2013
    V for Vendetta style Sith Lord "You cannot kill an idea!"
     
  17. Voltron64

    Voltron64 Jedi Master star 1

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    Dec 23, 2009
    Tor Valum, given his age being around 7000 years old, could've been one of the original Jedi alongside Ajunta Pall who fell to the dark side and instigated the Hundred Year Darkness.

    And he split off from the rest of the Dark Jedi during their exile before they arrived on Korriban.
     
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  18. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 2016
    @ColeFardreamer

    Well to be fair 1.) I don't know if the Grysk will be involved and 2.) Filoni and the animation team he hire will probably be given the reign on whatever Post Ep 6 Thrawn stuff happens...This is a REBELS sequel series after all...Not a Thrawn sequel.

    My guess is anything Thrawn will be more akin to his writing in Rebels then in the Thrawn/ Zahn written novels.

    Also I still see the First Order as the main threat (Them playing more the role of the Dominion) the Grysk will be like the Klingons attacking the Cardassians during Season 4 before the Cardassian joined the Dominion.

    I believe in terms of TV they have set up for Ezra to be Thrawn's main rival/foil ,,,,,Well Hera to some extend too but Ezra now in terms of a Force user apposing Thrawn.
     
  19. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    - The Sith Holocaust, if such an event happens, could occur before the Sith Order is formed, with the founders of the Sith Order feeling that they were persecuted for embracing the dark side. I always thought Exar Kun’s story would make more sense this way.

    - Be clear about when lightsabers were invented.

    - Have Thrawn use battle droids instead of using clones now that we know that it was droids that the Republic fought against in the Clone Wars.

    - “Clone madness” could be how Palpatine explains Fives’ “assasination attempt” and claims about Order 66.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2020
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  20. SyndicThrass

    SyndicThrass Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 25, 2016
    If they’re going to change Thrawn’s death from The Last Command (which, on balance I’d prefer they didn’t) then I would put forth the notion that they should shameless ape Askeladd’s death in Vinland Saga. Have him locked into a tactical checkmate, but then have him ultimately make a move that would allow his cause to go on at the cost of his life.
     
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  21. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jul 9, 2016
    I mean Rulkh's dead, there can't be a Thrawn campaign so be necessity they have to change his death from Last Command.
     
  22. SyndicThrass

    SyndicThrass Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 25, 2016
    Not really, I mean they could always substitute Rukh with another Noghri (Rukh II for sake of argument) or have that whole Noghri element replaced whilst keeping the spirit of that betrayal.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2020
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  23. Fredrik Vallestrand

    Fredrik Vallestrand Jedi Master star 5

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    Jan 15, 2018
    What if and i mean what if, Thrawn still lives. He dealt with the treaths to his people, him and the jedi parted way, he let the other side of the galaxy deal with FO and the sith armada.

    Also i don't think Filoni wants rehash his death, just wondering why make him canon if you gonna kill him the same way. I think Filoni has something special planned for Thrawn that most likley has something to do with the force.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2020
  24. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jul 9, 2016
    Thrawn's going to Mortis!
     
  25. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    Geonosis could have the role that Wayland has in Legends.