Full Series Reconciling "The Last of the Jedi" with Rebels

There's hardly a whole crowd of Jedi out there right now. There's Obi Wan and Yoda as the only confirmed survivors of the original Jedi Order - as in, they officially became Jedi Knights, and Masters. Ahsoka deliberately disassociated herself from the Order - she's had the training but she's definitely NOT a Jedi, she rejected the code and stepped away. Kanan follows the code as best he can and Yoda has given him the thumbs up but he's not been shown to be anywhere near any of the older Jedi power-wise. Ezra is still up in the air, he's got plenty of mojo but little formal training, he's dabbled with the dark side (albeit unwillingly.) Ventress is presumably still out there but she's a loose cannon and definitely not a Jedi by any definition.

Tarkin might know of a few other people running around the galaxy waving lightsabers but as a political/military influence, the Jedi are GONE - Vader is the only force wielder he knows of who actually makes any difference at the scale Tarkin operates at, he is all that's left. Vader and Sidious are both amongst the most powerful force users ever, so while they can't stop new force-sensitives being born they probably reckon that with Obi-Wan dead there is no-one to train them and there is no threat to them.

It's all about how strict a definition of 'Jedi' you go with.

 

Bingo.

Obi-Wan and Yoda are probably the only two, who can realistically overthrow the Sith.

 

Filoni knows that his words will be analysed in great detail, so he may go out of his way to deny that any combination of Ezra, Kanan and Ahsoka up to and including all of them are doomed to die until the point at which it's undeniable.

His lengthy rationalisation of Yoda's words in ROTJ? That's quite possibly just a feint - a diversion for fans to argue over at the expense of other explanations for meshing Rebels with the films.

He's been at this fan engagement and showrunning game for the better part of a decade. He isn't going to spill the beans on critical future plot details just after the first season. As he did with TCW, he'll keep on muddying the waters by saying things like, "We'll see what makes sense," as he does in the OP's quoted interview.

 

Ezra, Kanan and Ahsoka could form a grey sect - which preserves the knowledge of the light side, but reject the dogma of the Jedi Order. This protects any ex Jedi surviving the OT and not effecting Luke. Luke sees himself, and so does Yoda, as the heir to the old Order - which Kanan and Ahsoka have both rejected.

 

I would guess that the implied suggestion that there might be other developed force users out there besides the Jedi and Sith really originated in canon during the TCW. Besides Ahsoka leaving the Order and now showing up in Rebels, there were also the Nightsisters depicted as well. Though the Nightsisters are heavily influenced by the darkside of the force (or may identify with that side of the force), they aren't therefore linked to the Sith. Ventress is another example of being somewhat non-affiliated as she went (to my understanding) from being in the Jedi Order, to working for the Sith, to being betrayed by the Sith, to having her former clan destroyed by the Sith so she was alone, and then finally becoming a bounty hunter. However with Ventress as it stands right now, we don't know whether she would continue to uphold/follow the traditions of the Nightsisters or even pass that on, let alone survive past the end of the war period. But as Mother Talzin put it:

So the whole idea is that there are only two distinct organizations, Jedi and Sith, has really been blown out of the water even prior to what Filoni said in the interview. I would be interested to hear about the discussion between Lucas and Filoni regarding their usage in TCW though. I have to wonder if in the discussion of how to rectify Ahsoka not being in or mentioned in ROTS, that the Nightsisters simply existing as a coven in canon (and only one example of which is shown in TCW, so there is a possibility that there could be more) was used by Filoni as an argument to keep her alive and subsequently leave the Jedi Order as other force users that aren't Sith or Jedi have been established in canon.

 

these different 'sects' are beginning to make my head spin

 

I think it is fair to suggest Jedi appearing in Rebels is just as controversial to some as Sith showing up in the ST. Maybe we're witnessing a minor (or major, depending on your point of view) retcon from Disney on the Star Wars franchise.

Will it have a positive or negative impact on the OT? depends. TCW helped the PT and added so much more depth to it, Rebels has the potential to damage some key and powerful scenes (i.e Luke being "last of the Jedi").

To understand the full consequences and effect, we're going have to wait until Rebels finishes. If there is zero explanation to explain why Ahsoka, Ezra or Kanan survives up to, or past, ANH then plot holes will appear.

 

Maybe everyone forgot -- but once upon a time Obi-Wan said the famous line "...from a certain point of view..."

There really isn't anything left to say here.

 

I believe it's now established that Force sensitive beings, both following the path of the light and dark will always exist, even if one faction wipes out another for a time. The Force will continue to imbue beings with its power and essence. A number of Jedi survived Order 66 and the purge, whether they remain Jedi is subjective. In the case of Ahsoka, she left the Order, but has the power, skill, and training of a Jedi Knight, and is one in everything but name. The same can be said of Maul - he is a Sith, and could be roaming the galaxy in this era as well. The CW, Rebels, and EU made all of this a grey area. The absolute black and white view established by the OT has changed.

 

Agreed.

I'm not sure if it can be classified as a retcon, but it is a huge expansion of understanding Force users. As I said, will it help or hinder the OT? Probably too early to say. But, you're quite right, a huge grey area has been added to the OT era

 

I don't mind different sects, I actually don't like there only being two groups. I don't like how they did the whole force thing in the movies. I'd have it more like a power people are born with. Anger doesn't always lead to darkside.
Darkside could be kind of like the dark arts. (please don't read too much into this) I am trying to stay just have the force as a power people are born with and they can choose to do good or evil with it.
Sith and Jedi are organizations you join, not something that you automatically are. Having varying beliefs is realistic.

but still don't want a bunch of force using freedom fighters in the OT.

More Jedi/Sith/force users/whatever you want to call them = more toys
Super powered "gary sue" "mary sue" Jedi = video game
more Kid Jedi running around= more coloring books and learn to read books

I can see why Disney would want to bring more in $$$$

 

I get where you are coming from, but this would require a reboot of the entire franchise. Also, anger wasn't the only thing that has been mentioned that in the franchise to lead to the darkside, but I am guessing you probably just picked that as it is often highlighted in the franchise.

Again this would require a reboot as it appears that children are recruited (abducted) to join the Jedi Order and indoctrinated in the Jedi ways. Except for Ezra and Luke, there haven't been any other instances in canon that we have seen that this isn't the case.

That's cool, but it also makes sense when looking at the beliefs of the Jedi that we have been provided so far and three force users being associated with the rebellion is far from a bunch when you consider how large the rebellion is. This is a galaxy wide conflict.

It isn't just Disney milking the cash cow that is is Star Wars, Lucas earned a fair bit of cash doing similar things by owning Lucasfilm and its different divisions.

 

The puzzling thing is that not every fan is crazy about the Jedi. Some are more interested in say, the clones or bounty hunters etc.

 

True, but Disney isn't going to satisfy every fan, and the above was sort of an exaggerated attempt at humor.

Still I think money plays a big factor in what they are doing.

 

Which is why a part of me died when Star Wars 1313 got canned....

 

Just curious, what do you think is a major reason ESB and ROTJ were made?

 

Because of the success of ANH, yes money plays a factor.
George Lucas couldn't make these films without money. He didn't start out big. That's not the point I'm getting at and ROTJ is wasn't too great.

If money was an issue I think they could make better things, but Disney and a smaller company aren't the same thing. I don't see Disney as a huge creative force, but one that cashes in on creativity.

Paying people to create things vs Creating them yourself.

I'll use an example. Tolkien created Lord of the Rings cause he wanted too. I don't think money was an issue for him. He never did sell the book rights, which is why a bunch of middle earth books aren't popping up and movies to go with.
He only sold the movie and merchandizing rights to the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings to pay a tax debt apparently so I think that shows money wasn't his sole driving force. He didn't work for a company with deadlines and had to meet quotas. He tried to write a sequel to lotr but gave up on it. I think he cared about the quality of his work and didn't want to release stuff just to make money. Christopher Tolkien could cash in a lot if he wanted too.


Can you imagine what Disney would do to Lord of the Rings if they owned it? Would they take time and put a lot of time into it? They have to pay people for their time remember.

 

Well there's always going to be force-sensitive children being born across the galaxy so it's hard to pin down on what scale Yoda is thinking when he says that line. There's probably a few Ezra/Luke/Anakins out there stuck on backwater worlds that aren't even aware of their potential. They could be anywhere from 9 to 14 or just toddlers when Yoda died... it's crazy to think about it.
I'm more interested in seeing them explain why Mas Amedda didn't arrive at the 2nd Death Star with Palps!

 

This is entirely the point I was making with my question. The success of ANH influenced Lucas to continue to work within the SWU. Finanical success, which is often used as a barometer of success in addition to critical review, was a factor in determining it like you said, but Lucas chose to continue to work on the OT when he could have easily walked away from it. Lucas also chose to do the PT years later. If Lucas considers himself to be a storyteller. If he didn't want to tell the story, he could have walked away from it but he didn't.

Due to the success of the franchise in general, others have been inspired to write stories to continue the franchise's legacy. If there wasn't any interest in continuing the story or no possibility to do so, then there wouldn't be any more movies, TV shows, games, comics, or books being produced and Disney would most likely not have bought the whole lot and immediately commissioned three films to be made for the ST. As well as stand alone films within the same universe. Yes, purchasing the franchise was a monetary move because the potential amount of money to be made was high.

There is also no reason not to deny that those currently working in the franchise are interested in seeing the franchise continue with quality material. JJ Abrams is a fan of the franchise and Filoni is also interested in the franchise.

You are comparing a story that was written in whole and told a complete journey adapted to film, to a film that told a portion of that story with the possibility to continue. Two complete different mediums of story telling, with vastly different constraints (novel vs film). This is in no way a fair comparison as the source material for that (LOTR) franchise of film was completed well, well before the films we have now were even considered.

BTW didn't Christopher Tolkien file legal proceedings for royalties?

I respect entrepreneurs and creators of material, but you also have to recognize that not everything that is created comes solely from a private individual. And yes, you have to pay people for the work they do just like private individuals that create something that is brought to market are paid. But I will point you to the MCU as an example of the amount of investment, time, dedication, and quality of product that Disney has put into a franchise. If a film isn't successful, then it makes it less likely that a sequel will be made.

 

Because George Lucas is a storyteller and had a story he wanted to tell. His goal wasn't money, but storytelling and film making.

 

Perhaps this is naive of me, but I personally have a bit more faith in Dave Filoni and think at least 2/3 of those characters will be dead before the show is out. I don't care what he said, of course he was going to dodge/steer around the question at this point in the series.

 

Indeed, and none of them are Jedi in the traditional sense. Luke is the last Jedi to be trained by Masters of the Order. Kanan wasnt dubbed a Knight, nor did he receive the permission of the Council to train a padawan. He couldnt because the Order and Council are gone. So what Yoda says is true in the sense that he was the last officially trained Jedi tasked with an objective from the last member of the Council.

 

That is completely not the point I was making. Just because a storyteller has a story to tell, doesn't mean that it will be told/will get made..... I think most would agree that Lucas considers himself a storyteller though. Like I said above, if a film isn't successful, then it is less likely to have a sequel.

 

Luke had training. They didn't. Yet.

 

Exactly. My point was that the motivation for Lucas to make the original three was not money.