ST Regarding Rey and Snoke - we the audience were deceived - we did not see what we think we saw

Regarding Smoke's death scene:

Everything points towards this being an elaborate illusion.

Evidence:

First, Andy Serkis recently said in an interview that Snoke was much more powerful than Sidious.

Second, the movie takes great pains in the final act to show us that we the audience, and the characters in the movie themselves, can be deceived by an illusion - i.e. when Luke appears to physically present be on Crait, but is in actual fact not really there at all.

So Snoke’s presence in the throne room (and his apparent ‘death’) was possibly due to an even more powerful and potent illusion.

Third, The Last Jedi Visual Dictionary tells us that Snoke masks his true form from everyone, including those “select few” that are able to converse with him directly (that would include Kylo).


The following is about Darth Plagueis:

“Plagueis was a potent sorcerer that could create Force-illusions that encroached on reality so that even Sidious couldn't say if it was reality or a mere illusion.”

“Skilled in the more unorthodox applications of the force, Darth Plagueis was skilled in conjuring Force illusions, convincing enough to fool even Palpatine.”

I’m not saying Snoke= Plageuis, but this is more than a little interesting.


Now let’s look at Snoke’s name.

Snoke is similar to two words - Snake and Smoke.

Snake = Deception
Smoke - is often used in illusions

There is the phrase “Smoke and mirrors” - an idiom for a deceptive, fraudulent or insubstantial explanation or description. The source of the name is based on magicians' illusions.

I believe there are two scenes in The Last Jedi that set out to deceive us - the first is Snoke’s apparent ‘death’ and the second is Rey’s Cave Scene where she is confronted with a mirror image of herself when she is seeking an answer regarding her parentage (I do not believe her parents were drunk scrapyard dealers).

“Snoke and Mirrors” indeed.

Last, let’s look at this article from the beginning fo December, interviewing Andy Serkis. Serkis says:

“Snoke is the dark end of the Force.. he has his own agenda. He’s a cruel manipulator."

He was then asked whether Snoke was more powerful than Darth Vader or Palpatine. Remember, Anakin (before he became Vader) was supposed to have the potential to balance the Force and had an incredible Midichlorian rating. He was asked “Is Snoke really more powerful than that?”

Serkis gave the unequivocal reply: “Oh, without question. He has limitless resources, let’s put in that way.”

 

‭I've started a separate thread now focussing soley on Snoke, as I believe this is going to be vitally important in understanding the saga, moving forward. Let's see which thread gets more traction:

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/snoke-and-mirrors-the-master-of-illusion.50047304/

From the new thread:

Regarding Smoke's death scene:

Everything points towards this being an elaborate illusion.

Evidence:

First, Andy Serkis recently said in an interview that Snoke was much more powerful than Sidious.

Second, the movie takes great pains in the final act to show us that we the audience, and the characters in the movie themselves, can be deceived by an illusion - i.e. when Luke appears to physically present be on Crait, but is in actual fact not really there at all.

So Snoke’s presence in the throne room (and his apparent ‘death’) was possibly due to an even more powerful and potent illusion.

Third, The Last Jedi Visual Dictionary tells us that Snoke masks his true form from everyone, including those “select few” that are able to converse with him directly (that would include Kylo).


The following is about Darth Plagueis:

“Plagueis was a potent sorcerer that could create Force-illusions that encroached on reality so that even Sidious couldn't say if it was reality or a mere illusion.”

“Skilled in the more unorthodox applications of the force, Darth Plagueis was skilled in conjuring Force illusions, convincing enough to fool even Palpatine.”

I’m not saying Snoke= Plageuis, but this is more than a little interesting.


Now let’s look at Snoke’s name.

Snoke is similar to two words - Snake and Smoke.

Snake = Deception
Smoke - is often used in illusions

There is the phrase “Smoke and mirrors” - an idiom for a deceptive, fraudulent or insubstantial explanation or description. The source of the name is based on magicians' illusions.

I believe there are two scenes in The Last Jedi that set out to deceive us - the first is Snoke’s apparent ‘death’ and the second is Rey’s Cave Scene where she is confronted with a mirror image of herself when she is seeking an answer regarding her parentage (I do not believe her parents were drunk scrapyard dealers).

“Snoke and Mirrors” indeed.

Last, let’s look at this article from the beginning fo December, interviewing Andy Serkis. Serkis says:

“Snoke is the dark end of the Force.. he has his own agenda. He’s a cruel manipulator."

He was then asked whether Snoke was more powerful than Darth Vader or Palpatine. Remember, Anakin (before he became Vader) was supposed to have the potential to balance the Force and had an incredible Midichlorian rating. He was asked “Is Snoke really more powerful than that?”


Serkis gave the unequivocal reply: “Oh, without question. He has limitless resources, let’s put in that way.”

 

Well I am not sure whether there is anything in this but I am still wondering how Rey got from the throne room to the Falcons gunner seat?????????????????????????

 

Isn't this really a repeat of your other thread?

 

DP

 

Snoke was killed. That was him and he didn’t see it coming. I see this in a black and white way. There’s no illusion.

 

Maul survived the same fate as Snoke and he's far less powerful

 

This, not everything needs some elaborate back story and deceptions. He was a dark side user that waited for the right time to reveal himself & strike. Its happened before in this universe. He underestimated his appearance & paid the price, also has happened before. Sometimes things really are just what they are.

 

You know his job is to sell the movie.

What do you think he is privy to all types of information. He gets the script he does the job. You are reading into something that is not there.

 

Snoke wears a black ring in the movie. In the visual dictionary it states that the stone the ring is made from comes from beneath Vader’s castle on Mustafar. It has engraving on it from a planet that is linked to Darth Plagueis, who was known for using force Illusions.

I guess we will find out in 2 years time.

 

Snoke’s dead, he’s not coming back.

 

I thought his death was ****ing great and it worked overall for the storyline. Don't really see a problem here or necessity to bring him back. In the end he's just another CGI warlord monster in a chair.

 

I think that Snoke is probably gone. People need to remember that there is a large backstory about him that we will learn about in the future (these are movies not documentaries). As far as Rey's parentage goes, I think there is more to that as well. Rey said she had a vision that Kylo turned to the light. So far that is very wrong. Kylo's vision was that Rey's parents were nobody's. Snoke also admitted that he was manipulating their minds. The mystery of Rey's parents is not over.

 

Once Snoke realized that Kylo would fall into Darkness, might he have killed himself to help push the Sith agenda forward ? In order for a Sith to truly stand on thier own the Master must die.

 

I thought from the beginning that it didn't make sense for Snoke to bring himself and his ship into the battle. Why risk your own life and ship when you can command from afar through holograms?

 

I'd say Rey's parentage is still about 50-50 solved in my book. Maybe she is just random?

But Snoke, my friends, is DEAD. He's not coming back. I think that scene where Kylo Ren just owned Hux was one of my favorite little scenes in the movie.

 

He probably is dead, but who the hell was he anyway? Most of the fan theories were so promising, even the alleged Snoke = Mace Windu one. C'mon, it would've at least meant something, for him to want revenge on Anakin for his betrayal in Episode III.. being in the middle of Light and Dark Side. Sigh.. now we still don't know who he was and he's dead. Poof, gone. Why should anyone in the audience care?

 

This whole thread is based on a misunderstanding of narrative.

Like it or not, Snoke isn’t the story. He was a generic place holder bad guy, whose role was to chew scenery until the time was right for Kylo to usurp him. That’s pretty much been apparent from what we’ve been told all along, but all the theorising blinded us.

The fact is that hardcore fans (understandably) wanted a fairly compelling reason why this new big bad had come along, but that wasn’t the story the ST was telling; they’re telling the story of Kylo’s rise to power. I imagine that now Snoke’s fate has been addressed, someone will be tasked with writing his backstory, and there’s plenty of interesting ways to go with it. But ultimately, the sequel trilogy is about two parallel hero’s journeys, one light, one dark.

 

This is may major issue with this trilogy - the second tier of characters are almost entirely underdeveloped, paper-thin and ultimately disposable. Snoke, Finn, Poe, Hux - they're nothing more than billboards - Evil Lord, Heroic Pilot, Scared Hero, Hapless Villain. The third tier of characters (Rose, Holdo) are more interesting and developed characters.

This may be flaws in TFA that carried over to this movie but neverless they weren't fully addressed in TLJ. How can we feel for Poe and Finn when they're so thin? How can we really rage against Snoke or Hux when all they are is cutout badies?

These characters' failings are also all the more prominent when the major characters are largely excellent

 

I can't agree with this theory. For one, Rey didn't see just herself in the cave, she saw two people in shadow become one person - herself. The implication is that she has parents but can't see who they are. If they were junkers, who sold her off when she was young, it makes sense that she can't see their faces. Despite her desire to know them, the Force can't change who she is or where she comes from.

Maz saw that, which is why she insisted that Rey already knew there was no one coming back for her on Jakku.

Thematically, who she is not as important as what she does. That is the contrast she is meant to represent as a foil to Kylo Ren. He comes from a line of strong force users and galactic heroes or rulers. She comes from nothing, and is yet able to either match or surpass his power. That's intentional.

Luke made clear he had no idea who she is.​

Neither Han, Leia or Kylo recognize her as anyone they're familiar with​

Both Kylo and Snoke have both looked in her mind and seen what she can't admit to herself. She's nobody important.​

We know she is, and she's has always known who she is, which is why she says it herself. She's not a Skywalker. She wasn't trained by Jedi and then hidden. She wasn't created by the Force. She's just Rey.

I would rather have not spent the greater part of two films chasing the mystery of nothing at what I feel like was the expense of better characterization for her, but here we are.

 

Kylo was always going to be the villain of this saga, and the only way he could surpass Vader (not Anakin) was to kill his master and rule as is the way of the Sith/dark side. I always saw him eliminating Snoke at some point, I just expected them to give us some characterization for him before doing so.

I blame JJ Abrams more than Rian Johnson for that though. Had Abrams done less mystery boxing in TFA, Johnson wouldn't have had so much on his plate to try to cover here.

 

That may mean that all anyone other Hux, Kylo and the Elite Guard have ever seen of Snoke is his gargantuan holograms. Not that he creates elaborate corporeal force decoys, and then let's his apprentice take over his fleet.

 

We aren't going to have to go through this for the next 2 years, are we?

Snoke is dead. His purpose in the story was served.

What was his purpose? To build the First Order to a point where it could retake the galaxy and become the new Empire. Ben Solo couldn't have done that, so another character was needed. The Ben becomes Kylo, kills Snoke, and is apparently going to do what his Grandfather didn't; become the Emperor and establish order.

Snoke's purpose in the story is over. He isn't coming back.

 

I think TLJ makes clear the danger of speculating, and as a fan of the series LOST, which JJ had also been involved, I strongly caution against putting anymore hope into Rey's ancestry. She's no one important, and thematically that's the point. Kylo is practically royalty and yet she can match or defeat him having come from nothing. If there was only one message in this film it was that heroes can, do and must come from anywhere.

I imagine IX's theme will likely be about the galaxy these new heroes and villians decide to fight to create, once the old guard is no longer there to tell them what to do.

 

ok so the topic of this thread is that everything revealed to us in the film was fake? ok. moving along.