PT Reshoots/restructuring of Episode 2

Watching Attack of The Clones, I wonder why Lucas messed with his initial cut/conception of the film so much.
And it also makes me wonder about his initial intent for the film and for the prequels in general.
We know that he softened Obi Wan and Anakin's relationship a LOT in the reshoots.
Not only the elevator scene, but the scene outside the nightclub where Obi Wan originally says "But you haven't learned anything Anakin".
(1:23 in this video)

Notice also how the next scene in that trailer is the "It's all Obi Wan's fault!" line.
It seems like Lucas' initial idea of their relationship was INTENTIONALLY more antagonistic.
The narrative seems to be that he looked at rough cut the film and decided to show thier friendship more in reshoots, and while that may be true, I don't think it was just bringing out a part of the story that got buried, i think it might have been an attempt to fundamentally alter the story.

Remember Obi Wan's thoughts about Anakin in TPM?
"Another pathetic lifeform"
"The boy is dangerous the council all know it"

Any thoughts on this idea and/or the reshoots of Attack of The Clones in general?

 

I also noticed that the reshoot scene with Obi Wan in the restraint on Geonosis is in that trailer, but it's still using non-reshoot footage for the "You haven't learned anything" bit, indicating a VERY late change.

 

Episode II is about Obi-Wan and Anakin in the father/son phase of their relationship. Lucas has spoken before (I'll post the quote if I can find it) about how fathers are, in some sense, authoritarian by nature; they tend more toward the disciplinarian side than the nurturing side. I think he sought to reflect this in the way Obi-Wan and Anakin relate to each other in the film, which is why Obi-Wan comes across as so harsh at times. But I don't think he ever intended there to be anything more sinister behind it, if that's what you're implying. I think Obi-Wan was always supposed to be someone who truly loved Anakin, even if he was often frustrated by him. The purpose of the reshoots was to better communicate that aspect of their relationship, which ended up not coming through strong enough in the original cut.

 

I guess it's just a shame he figures this stuff out in reshoots. It adds to the unreality, both the even more removed from reality nature of the reshoots, and the fake beard...
Ewan's performance seems a little off in some of the fake beard shots too.
Lucas got his reshoot act together a little bit more for Episode 3, thank god.

 

Why would it be a shame?
That's how movie-making works. You try to tell something, you shoot it, you find out that it doesn't quite work as you intended, so you change it. Movies change the entire time. Multiple drafts get written, changes to them happen throughout the shooting, reshoots add or change stuff, the list goes on and on. You can't plan on when you are going to find out about something or when you will get a better idea, nor can you know how something appears on screen before you've actually done it.

 

Here's the quote:

https://www.rollingstone.com/movies/movie-news/george-lucas-and-the-cult-of-darth-vader-247142/

 

This. I don't think the reshoots altered the Obi-Anakin relationship in any significant way, unless there are more examples than the two you provided. Anakin is a stubborn teenager in Clones, and Obi-Wan is the strict master. That was always a phase that would have to develop into "he was a good friend", which was established in the OT.
The elevator scene has been explained by Lucas: in the original cut, there was no time to establish the more friendly relationship between Obi and Anakin, so Lucas added that scene.
I don't think there could be many more examples of them not getting along. They don't share that many scenes after all.

Another, separate issue (that you seem to be implying) is whether Lucas' method of shooting pick-ups is a good one or not. That's up to discussion, but it's how Lucas likes to work, since he creates his movies in the editing room. The fact that a change could be made REALLY late in the process doesn't mean (IMO) that the change is not good, or that it doesn't work with the rest of the story. Not necessarily at least.

The only "bad" thing about reshoots is that sometimes you can tell the different beards, hairstyle and so forth…. But then, those continuity issues can happen in scenes shot during principal photography as well (Alec Guinness' hair for example is very inconsistent).

 

I guess my problem just comes down to the beard and the even more green screen that goes with those shots.
People complain about fat Ewan in the TPM reshoots, but that doesn't really bother me like the beard does.
I think if Lucas had kept the franchise that a CGI beard would be among his next round of changes.

However I still do think that certain elements of the movie play better with the original versions of scenes intact.
For instance, I don't get why Lucas cut out the scene where Obi Wan tells Mace that Anakin has an emotional connection to Padme.
The scene he replaced it with could have included a line like that, but it doesn't.
The original scene also maybe (????) Implies that the council knows about the emotional connection and is testing Anakin. "Obi-Wan you must have faith that he will choose the right path".
On the other hand, Palpatine is the one who recommended Anakin/Obi Wan for the mission, so I could be reading too much into it.
But on the other OTHER hand, Yoda seems to have his third eye trained on Anakin throughout the movie so IDK.

 

Also another little piece that supports my OP is this line from the script
"I realise now what you and Master Yoda knew from the beginning... the boy was too old to start the training..."

 

it's interesting you say this because I have always thought Anakin escorting Padme was his Jedi trail to let go of attachment, which of course he failed miserably. They could have also been testing to see if Anakin would try to free his mother if given the chance. Maybe.

 

A thing that got altered quite a bit in reshoots was the Sido-Dyas/Sifo-Dyas thing.

Originally it was Sido-Dyas, a Jedi that did not exist and Mace and co knew that.
They suspected that someone in the senate might be behind the clone army.
Jango also said a Darth Tyrannus hired him, whom Yoda later said must be a Sith.
The Kamino people also say that they have kept this army a secret per instructions, that Sido-Dyas told them to expect jango and that they are opposed to Dooku.

So this makes it very obvious who is behind the army and that is why Lucas changed some stuff.
Now we have a real if dead Jedi, Sifo-Dyas. But considerable doubt is established about his involvement.

The original version makes the mystery very obvious but to me, the Jedi seem a bit smarter. They ask more questions, they talk about what certain things might mean and speculate about who is really doing this.
The newer version makes the mystery slightly less obvious but it also makes the Jedi seem a lot more dumb.
Far too many of the questionable things around the army they never even comment on and seemingly make no effort in unraveling.

Lucas did say that he planned to do more with Sifo-Dyas in RotS but that wasn't possible due to how much RotS had to do.

The clone army is a fairly complicated plot point and changing that late in the game is risky and here I think it shows.

About Obi-Wan and Anakin.
Partly I think the problem is that TPM did not do much with their relationship.
They met but that is about it.
So AotC had to both show an established friendship but also show that it is breaking down.
And to me, it didn't really accomplish that.
Oh I saw quite a lot of animosity between them but not enough friendship. RotS did a better job there.
Overall the journey of these two characters was a bit uneven. Sometimes they were quite friendly and next scene they were very antagonistic. It wasn't a slow and steady journey from good friends to bitter enemies, it jumped around too much.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

the episode 2 novel talks about Anakin being the hero of the Clone Wars and a celebrity of sorts, but the Council keep putting Anakin in his place to prevent his ego from getting bigger, which causes resentment. This is from Ani's point of view.

 

I can't resist saying this, your opinions on the PT are tainted to me since you subscribe to Plinkett stuff that he gets obviously wrong- like wondering why the Jedi don't send more people back to Naboo. Ki Adi says they want to "draw out the queen's attacker" which wouldn't happen if more Jedi go back.

I've lurked here for a long time and your PT posts often seem in bad faith.

A more on topic example would be your Syfo-Dyas complaint.
You say the plotting is weak, but Lucas was so confident in his story that just as a middle finger to people like Plinkett he had the Jedi find out that the Clone Army was ordered by the Sith in TCW.
I don't bring that up to say that the films need TCW, I bring that up to show that George is saying that his story hangs together SO WELL that the Jedi can KNOW that the clones were Sith a plot of some kind and that Revenge of The Sith's script would STILL work.

 

Bad faith?
So instead of dealing with my arguments, you instead attack me and try to dismiss my opinion.

For your information I had my opinions and issues on the PT long before I ever saw the Plinkett stuff.
So those didn't change my mind.

As for TPM, sending a small boy into a war-zone makes very little sense.
And yes sending too many Jedi might cause Maul not to show but sending too few might just leave them with two jedi dead and the mission failed totally. Would Maul not show if say 4-5 were sent? Would he know?

As for the clone army, if in RotS the Jedi knew that the sith were behind the army, then their actions make no sense and they are idiots for being so trusting with the clones.
RotS shows the Jedi being taken by total surprise when the clones turn on them. If the Jedi knew that the clone army was a sith plot from day one, then why are they so surprised?

Bye.

 

yeah we're all fans discussing a movie we like. it's ok if we all don't agree on everything.

 

"How would he know?" His eyes. The force. The list goes on.
You're objectively wrong.

The small boy is sent into the warzone because Qui-Gon promised Shmi he'd watch after him. There's no where else to go that fits that. You will notice also that Qui-Gon tells Anakin to hide. He doesn't give him a gun or anything like that.
If you need anymore reason than that then you must also think the AT ATs moving at 5 mph in the OT is a problem.
Eagles to Mordor etc.

As for the Clones, the Jedi are caught because they've been fighting with these guys for three years. They have no choice but to use them, and the clones haven't done anything fishy themselves, so the logical deduction would be that the Sith want a galactic war that they control from both sides, and that they can thin the Jedi's ranks that way.
They can have suspicions without being able to formulate a defence.

 

Kenobi didnt really seem like he cared for Anakin even in TPM, at one point he felt he was dangerous. There was certainly what amounted to animosity and jealously which seemed to be cause of Jinn and Jinn's focal attention went more towards his new found obsession with Anakin and the Chosen One legend. Plus Jinn wanting to train him and have Kenobi move on in the trials and the Council was against the boy being trained going back to TPM which was enough for Kenobi. In AOTC Kenobi still doesn't really care for Anakin even more so and the feeling is mutual as Anakin also expresses his dislike for Kenobi and his teaching methods. Anakin went on a few angry rants about Kenobi and eventually all of this kinda brotherly rivalry and mutual tension resurfaces when he turns into Vader in ROTS.

I think by ROTS they softened the relationship whether that was cause of natural growth or cause Lucas changed his ideas or both I dont know.

In ROTS things were a bit different, they seemed more like friends. Kenobi even sticks up for him against Yoda and Windu. While in AOTC Yoda stuck up for Anakin, while Kenobi was basically throwing him under the bus.

TCW would further change their relationship and even Anakin was softened a lot more considerably to make him more likeable and all of those kinda things, to where Kenobi and Anakin were more friendlier, and Anakin gets a lil sister-like character in the form of Ahsoka ect. But as Lucas got more involved with TCW I think we saw Anakin moved just a lil bit more dark as time went on to eventually get him to where he needs to be for ROTS.

 

Yeah! This is what I mean. It's almost like each installment (including TCW) ever so slightly revised the story. But whether it was one story or four slightly different ones, I think TCW was the bridge too far. Anakin is like a fanfic character in that show.
Though you're right, Anakin was slightly less OOC in season 5/6.

 

Of course, the OT shows its between movie rewrites just as much if not more so it's nothing new really. But it is a funny way to work.

 

I see absolutely nothing in AOTC that even remotely suggests that the two don't care about each other. On the contrary, it is rather obvious that they do. At best there is some mild annoyance about certain details, but there is no doubt that each would give his life for the other, as evidenced by Anakin wanting to go and save Obi Wan when he gets captured, as well as jumping in to save Obi Wan after he gets beaten by Dooku. He also says that he is grateful that Obi Wan is his master, and that he is as wise as Master Yoda and as powerful as Master Windu, hardly things he would say if he wasn't fond of him or what he is trying to teach him. It's just that this is the one time that Anakin can actually vent to someone he knows. Before he met Padme again, all there was for him were the Jedi, hardly the people you could talk about t his matter with.

Don't confuse Obi Wan being a strict teachter with him not caring about Anakin either. In fact, he's strict because he cares, because it is important that Anakin learns this stuff or it may harm him in the future. If Obi Wan didn't care, he wouldn't bother and let Anakin just fail without doing anything to improve his behaviour in the future. He also doesn't tell Anakin that he would be expelled from the Order if he went and helped Padme after she falls out ofthe ship because he demands strict adherence to the rules, he is telling him that because he doesn't want Anakin to be gone or make such a mistake.

One also shouldn't forget that the issues that do exist arise from the situation at hand. Anakin is more emotional than the average Jedi due to starting so late with his training. He hasn't reached the stage yet where he is in control of his emotions. Which makes it all the harder for him to accept what Obi Wan is trying to teach him. Obi Wan, on the other hand, can't really teach him anything different than what he was taught and what is deemed necessary for all Jedi. He can't get into Anakin's mindset, because it is rather alien to him. As TPM has taught us, Obi Wan is a more of a by the book Jedi, while Qui Gon is the maverick. That's what may have made Qui Gon one of, if it the only proper teacher for Anakin. But that's not really something you can blame on Obi Wan or Anakin.

I don't see what's supposed to be so odd about it. It's standard procedure in Hollywood, it happens all the time. There is never one coherent line of work, it is always a meandering line that evolves in different directions before setting onto one.

 

honestly i didn'tfeel like obi and anakin were in a father son relationship.
their age difference were not that great for one.
for two obiwan was far too lenient in some aspects, trying to stay on anakins good side and sort of shrugging his shoulders when anakin did things he didnt agree with. I feel a real father wouldve been more ready to put their foot down and mark their inherent authority (whether they are right or wrong).

if anything they were closer to an older brother younger brother relationship. in fact doesnt obiwan himself refer to anakin as his "brother"?? could you ever imagine Qui-Gon calling Anakin "brother"??? I dont think I can. He would refer to him as a student and comment on his growth. But he wouldn't call him a brother.

qui-gon appeared far more like a father figure to anakin in the fairly short time they were together in tpm. In contrast to Jinn, obi-wans shortcomings as being a father figure were even more clear. Qui-Gon showed an immediate strong devotion to Anakin, whereas Obi-Wan only reluctantly took anakin on as padawan due to unfortunate external circumstances.

Obi and Annies relationship was always one of Obi-Wan being unready and incapable of him, and Anakin being frustrated at Obi-Wans "by the book" approach whose strict accordance to jedi rules didnt work for someone like anakin who wasn't a normal pupil. Obviously they develop some friendship and raport over the decade or so of their mentor relationship, but the cracks were always there from the start. And I feel that is all fairly well presented in the films.

Tbh I feel like Obi-Wan is a character who is misenterpreted as some kind of hero character and is given more credit than he deserves - in terms him having the correct outloook and actions - and maybe that plays a role in people elevating him up to father status or something. But really the films show numerous times that obiwan does some quite questionable things. But I feel people overlook a lot of his faults because Ewan was so good and charismatic in the role.

So I just checked out his scene again. I dont how sincere anakin was being right there, but right after that he goes on to say: "In some ways... In a lot of ways, I'm ahead of Obi-Wan."

Meaning that in a lot of ways, by implication, anakin also considers himself above yoda and windu. lol. The arrogance of that boy!...

 

"Mild annoyance" ?! Well thats your view I guess not the way it was, but you need to watch the movie/movies again.

Kenobi was taken at an unusually late age of three, since younglings were typically identified within 6 months of birth and taken in canon. Anakin isn't particularly unique in that regard either.

Kenobi even in TPM spoke out of place to is master Jinn quite a few times, and was described as impatient and headstrong in novel and by Jinn even even in the movie where he even said to Yoda that he was headstrong and had much to learn despite being capable of the trials ect.

Yoda often had to remind Kenobi that he was not much different when he was training Anakin as they were similar. While in ESB Kenobi reminded Yoda that he was not much different than Luke or Anakin(reckless), "So was I if you remember".

The Jedi are imperfect characters, that includes Kenobi and Yoda. Probably one of the more interesting things about TPM was that despite that Jedi being in their prime they clearly represented a flawed Order. This was also shown when Kenobi embraced the dark side to avenge Jinn's death when he attacked Maul by breaking the hilt, he was unbalanced since that was not the Jedi way. Maul was able to goad Kenobi a few times cause Jinn's death made him angry as this was done on TCW . And TCW did explore that the Jedi order and the Jedi Council was corrupted by the Dark Side. We were gonna get the Sith Shrine buried under the Jedi Temple. *The last two PT films themselves also made clear that the Jedi were losing their ability to use the Force.