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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Rewriting the Prequels...

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by swrescripted, Jan 23, 2013.

  1. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 11, 2019
    Curiosity. And I regret it.
     
  2. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    Honest question; and you don't have to reply if you don't want to. Do you get exhausted from reading about ALL fanfiction, or just stuff that deals with the Star Wars PT?
     
  3. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 11, 2019
    What does this have to do with my curiosity?
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2021
  4. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    Well, first you said you were exhausted from this thread. Then when asked why you were here, you stated "curiosity".

    So that led me to believe that you were curious what was in, essentially, a fanfic thread about ways to improve the PT and then you were exhausted by it. So that leads me to question whether you feel that way (meaning exhausted) about all fanfic that goes about redoing aspects of entertainment, or if it's just your response to PT fanfic specifically.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2021
  5. SlashMan

    SlashMan Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 5, 2012
    Something that I've been thinking of lately is the time gap in between the fall of Vader and the death of Leia's mother implied in Return of the Jedi. By sources of the time, this would have been two years giving Leia only the faintest memories of her biological mother. How would this then change the events as told in Revenge of the Sith? I think the decision to give Luke to his uncle on Tatooine at once would still make sense. After all, he would have never had time to bond with his mother. Leia would have likely gone into hiding on Alderaan, which was still respected enough as to not see an Imperial presence. I liked the decision to include Bail Organa in the conclusion of ROTS, as well as his role behind the scenes in the creation of the Rebellion; these would be very important when it came to building a foundation for Leia.

    On a side note, I prefer the prequel telling of Luke's aunt and uncle than what ROTJ planned for Owen being Obi-Wan's brother. This would have created a lot of conflict that's never properly explained. Back in ANH, it seemed like the plan was to simply have Owen be Anakin's brother anyways. The step-brother revelation was honestly the next best thing.

    Another thing to consider if you're going to strictly adhere to the OT is the character's ages. Obi-Wan should be in his 50s at the time of ROTS to put him in his 70s for the OT. Though this would have a ripple effect where showing Obi-Wan as a padawan would create a huge time gap across the trilogy. Not necessarily a bad thing to cover all the history involved, but it would make the aspect of having a single actor difficult. With hindsight in mind, that would unfortunately rob us of one of the series' breakout stars, Ewan McGregor.

    It seems like a lot of this would point to difficulty in condensing this into three films, especially the two year gap after the rise of the empire. For that matter, Padme's death would be an interesting mystery that really only points to her being killed by the Empire or falling deathly ill.
     
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  6. QsAssistant

    QsAssistant Jedi Master star 3

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    Apr 13, 2011
    To make the PT better, for me it’s simple. Get rid of The Phantom Menace or just make it “A Star Wars Story” title.
    It’s not really the story that needs to be told in a trilogy.
    Make Attack of the Clones the first Episode and in that one Anakin and Padmé meet for the first time and fall in love. The rest of the story can play out pretty much the same but add in more dialogue to explain Anakin’s history on Tattooine. And they don’t get married at the end of this one.
    Episode II takes place durning the Clone Wars and we see Anakin get Knighted as a Jedi. We get to see a stronger more brother like bond between Anakin and Obi-Wan. Anakin and Padmé get married in secret by the end. The Clone Wars cartoon can take place shortly after this movie and Revenge of the Sith can still play out like it already does.
    Having said all that, I will say that the PT come out shortly after I discovered SW so I practically grew up with it and I enjoy it as is. It’s given us a lot of great content in the forms of shows, books/comics and video games.
     
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  7. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    I think that's even the issue that Lucas ran into. He made TPM as a set up to a story, but then realized he only had two movies left to get from A to B. Then after AOTC he was already planning on making a Clone Wars TV show to flesh everything out.

    A lot of the choices that Lucas made for TPM are just weird, but the main one is essentially replacing the character of Obi-Wan with Qui-Gon. Lucas already knew he only had three movies (six hours essentially) to build and then destroy a friendship. And he purposely cut two whole hours out of the equation and then had to shove everything into the two follow up films. It's baffling to me.
     
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  8. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 11, 2019
    Recently, I just watched both "A New Hope" and "Return of the Jedi". I'll probably get around to "The Empire Strikes Back". For years, I had claimed that both the Original Trilogy and the Prequel Trilogy were equally good. But after watching those two films, I'm not so sure. I think the Prequel Trilogy's narrative is a little better. It's flawed. And so is the narrative for the Original Trilogy. And I love both of them. But . . . I'm beginning to feel that the Prequel Trilogy is a little better.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2021
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  9. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 10, 2011
    Wow, he only had two whole movies to build a friendship? What a terrible miscalculation on his part. If only someone could go back in time and tell Lucas that no one will care about Han Solo leaving and then coming back for his friends at the end of Episode IV, because he didn't even have a whole movie to build the friendship between them. If you think about it they really only start to become friends during the gunport battle sequence, which is like ten minutes before Han leaves the base. Total misfire.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2021
  10. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 9, 2015
    I prefer Qui-Gon's character to be where that character is. I think if Obi-Wan is Qui-Gon instead, I think that doesn't present as much showcase of the Obi-Wan character's full weight, that I think he got in the movies. I think it's flawed. But I prefer it, in concept, as is.
     
  11. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    I think Qui-Gon dying and forcing Obi-Wan into this weird dynamic of raising Anakin like an older sibling would raise a younger sibling was an interesting choice.

    My main issue is that I don't get any sense of comradery between Anakin and Obi-Wan in AOTC at all. Then we get a hint of their friendship in ROTS before everything goes south.

    Which means the relationship of Anakin and Obi-Wan, as implied by Lucas and the films is indifference in TPM, a somewhat friendship off screen that we never really see before AOTC, both of them actively speaking ill of the other person in AOTC, a friendship reforming off screen before ROTS, then finally a friendship that the audience gets to see at the beginning of ROTS just before Anakin tries to kill Obi-Wan.

    Looking at the grand scheme of things, I don't know what Lucas was going for.
     
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  12. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    First off I don't understand how you get only a "hint" of friendship from ROTS. By that standard then then Luke and Han's friendship must be just a few hints here or there over the entire OT?

    Their friendship starts on the Falcon's escape over a few moments then one more scene on the Falcon then Han's leaving scene. Then he comes back and everyone is all smiles and embracing like there has been some full movie build when it's only actually been a few short scenes.They only interact a few times in TESB which also includes one or the other being frozen or unconscious. They get two actual face to face scenes of any worth at all. One is a comedy scene and the other a quick "Good-bye take care".

    In ROTJ it's more comedy. The more meaningful interaction of Han thanking Luke was cut and transferred to a voice-over. The Endor scenes were fine but their while the friendship was there it's not the focus. Over three movies the most meaningful full on face to face acted interaction they get is when Han leaves in ANH. In their case the friendship isn't actually built off scenes between the actors where that friendship is explored and developed but mostly scenes where only one or the other is present (or active in the scene). What we really get is a quick statement and expression of friendship which is strongest and lasting from the end celebration. It's the non-verbal that really sells the Luke-Han relationship. They were friends at the end of ANH, still are in TESB, Han saves Luke then Luke tries to save Han in TESB, then Luke does save Han in ROTJ. That's certainly good but most of the heaviest lifting is not done by the actors but events the characters are in. There are no trials and tribulations with these characters. They meet, trade barbs, share danger then become friends in ANH and that's pretty much it. The next two movies just demonstrate that unfaltering friendship that was never challenged in any way.

    Yet in comparison to that Obi-Wan and Anakin has to be all around deeper, richer and far more complex. They can't just meet, quickly become best friends and never falter. It has to falter and it can't just be some completely out of nowhere cracking.

    The first segment of ROTS alone specifically highlights the fun aspect of the mature brother bond between the two Jedi (including their two ships as they move in unison like Luke and Han at the end of ANH). The middle segment of the movie goes into it that much deeper with the still prominent master to apprentice aspect then finally the last segment on Mustafar has the tragic loss of that friendship as Anakin has become Vader. All these trace back to scenes with Obi-Wan from his talks with Luke in ANH and ROTJ. Lucas had all the aspects from the OT covered in that one movie alone. In terms of the actors performing with each other in meaningful scenes ROTS by itself builds a stronger and deeper relationship in one movie than three movies of Luke and Han.

    I'd say the grand scheme was to have actual development and depth. Lucas' decided to covered the OT relationship of Obi-Wan and Anakin in ROTS as above so the first two movies were a build towards that.

    I find the relationship in AOTC terrific.The trilogy doesn't work without it. It's not the brother to brother but teacher/father to troubled student/son. Lucas had to square the difference between the original concept of Obi-Wan and Anakin being another Luke and Han "always friends" pair to Obi-Wan and Vader (the greedy pupil who wanted power). ROTS covers the former while AOTC sows the seeds of the latter which then is manifest in ROTS and pulls apart that friendship.

    I think that the reason Lucas decided that Obi-Wan finding Anakin and bringing him into the Jedi Order didn't work for him was that 1) He wanted to show us what a regular Jedi Master and apprentice relationship was so that we could compare it to Obi-Wan and Anakin later on and 2) If Obi-Wan was "Qui-Gon" then it'd complicate things because then the story would have to be just as much about how badly Obi-Wan failed Anakin.

    Compare Qui-Gon and his relationship and belief in Anakin as the Chosen One to Obi-Wan who believes more in Anakin as a person as opposed to the prophecy. If Obi-Wan had been so all in as Qui-Gon was then you'd have to focus on why he didn't do more? Qui-Gon is a guy who saw things other Jedi didn't. Having Obi-Wan not being able to see all the dimensions to Anakin's problems from his mother to Padme to Palpatine works because his trust was in Anakin doing the right thing and the Jedi Order itself. Qui-Gon looked at Anakin as more than just that. Qui-Gon is someone that Anakin could completely confide in so Palpatine's influence would be diminished. Qui-Gon would take Anakin to see Shmi from time and time and I don't think a relationship with Padme is something that would completely throw him either. As we saw he believed in the Jedi Order completely but was not strict to the rules. Obi-Wan also believed in the Jedi Order completely but also the rules. Obi-Wan as a straight-laced Jedi Council kind of Jedi who is a "wiser man" than Qui-Gon. He is the very best of the Jedi as he showed but his "failure" was that he didn't have that extra something which Qui-Gon did. No one else did.

    In terms of AOTC it's really not any much different from Luke and Han from ANH to TESB. Obi-Wan and Anakin become Master and apprentice over a few scenes in TPM then cut to the next movie years later where they spend that time together. AOTC opens with the elevator ride where their friendship and the adventures they have had are stated then throughout the movie we seen various scenes of friendship, comradery, teacher to student and student to teacher frustrations. From the apartment scenes to the chase repartee then Anakin going to save Obi-Wan to the arena, the gunship and the duel with Dooku we get multiple scenes going over and exploring and deepening their relationship.

    Everything that is necessary and relevant is contained within the movies. The only aspect that is "missing" is that which Lucas specifically provided us in TCW animated series. The between movie adventures of Obi-Wan and Anakin during the Clone Wars when they had reached the point in their relationship where they were Jedi Knights adventuring together without the same level of shadow of what was to come. ROTS shows us this and tells us this was the case between movies but what wasn't going to happen was Lucas giving us an entire movie of that. That had no place in his story. That's like doing an entire movie of Vader finding out about Luke or a movie about all the training Luke did after TESB or having a movie about Obi-Wan and Anakin between TPM and AOTC or Vader hunting down Jedi after ROTS. Things happen in-between Star Wars movies. Those stories are no doubt interesting and would be great to have but they aren't relevant to the specific story at hand that Lucas was telling.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
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  13. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 10, 2011
    Have you considered that he wasn't solely focused on showing them as the best of friends since the dawn of time, but on depicting the full breadth of a long and complicated relationship? Anakin is a rebellious teenager in Episode II and Obi-Wan is his father. The resentment engendered by this period of their lives is part of what allows the relationship to break down as seriously as it does.

    Episode III, on the other hand, goes all out in establishing Anakin and Obi-Wan as good friends. Much of the first half of the movie is spent establishing and building this relationship. Anakin puts his own life on the line to save Obi-Wan, twice. They fly and fight together in perfect sync with the other. They joke and banter like old friends almost nonstop until they part briefly on Coruscant. Obi-Wan earnestly vouches for Anakin to Yoda and Mace Windu even when neither seems to have much faith in him. Anakin, of his own volition, apologizes to Obi-Wan for disappointing him earlier and not being appreciative enough of what he's done for him, and Obi-Wan responds by telling Anakin how proud he is of him and how sure he is that Anakin will become a great Jedi. All this is just a "hint" to you?

    What would have been accomplished by having two whole other movies showing the exact same thing? How much time is spent showing that Han and Luke are friends in The Empire Strikes Back? Not much. Han rescues Luke in the beginning and they have a few dialogue scenes, mostly comprising Han being his usual cocky and sarcastic self, and then they're separated for the rest of the movie. Luke's friendship with Han is pivotal to the story of this movie! Why not send them on a more involved adventure together where they can bond more? Because we already understand that they're close friends at this point, and it would be a waste of time.

    The point of watching characters in movies is to see their relationships with each other grow and develop, not remain static. And if their relationship does remain static, then a proportionally smaller amount of time should be spent on that relationship in favor of showing other important things. In Episodes II and III, we do happen to spend a large chunk of time on the Obi-Wan/Anakin relationship, and that's because their relationship in each movie is notably different.

    Heck, I was watching GoldenEye not that long ago, and all that was needed to make Alec Trevelyan's betrayal of Bond have the impact that it does is one brief sequence at the beginning of the movie showing their friendship and camaraderie. We get that and much, much more with Anakin and Obi-Wan, because the fallout is designed to be more explosive. The idea that we needed three whole movies of Anakin and Obi-Wan reiterating to the audience over and over again that they are, indeed, friends is nonsense. The movies spent their time wisely by telling the full story of their relationship, from beginning to end.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
  14. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    For Lucas that was exactly the story that needed to be told to make the trilogy. The entire key to it for him was having a 9 year old Anakin leave his mother. Not 19, 15 or even the 12 he was going to go with at one point. He had to take it all the way back or it wasn't going to work for him. Then he had an entire movie for padawan Anakin then another one for Jedi Knight Anakin. He wanted that attachment issue to start at that age for both leaving his mother and meeting Padme.

    I would agree with you that some version or variation on this would have been that much more crowd pleasing (and certainly more critic pleasing) overall.

    One can see a version of the PT that has only Obi-Wan and no Qui-Gon where Episode I mixes elements of TPM with AOTC and an older Anakin (maybe he and Padme are 16) then joins the Jedi. The Clone Wars start early in AOTC and we get an adventurous TCW style movie. How exactly it'd be worked for ROTS to follow this would be the problem.

    I just don't think it'd be as good a story.

    It is such an interesting aspect of the OT. For all the feeling of Luke's great relationship with Han and Leia it's very simply and beautifully (and very quickly) established in ANH more with vision and sound than acting (which plays it's part) then it's restated most strongly in scenes where the actors don't work together or if they do it's some repartee with capture rescue. Han saves Luke, Leia saves Luke, Luke goes to save Leia and Han. Han punches Lando making them part of a plot to lure Luke.

    Leia and Han have to in TESB to develop their relationship but with Luke's friendship with the two of them known then it's strength is present because Vader wants to us them as bait. Luke then has the one actual important scene with Leia in ROTJ and nothing of real consequence with Han.Vader gets Luke to go wild referencing that maybe Leia will turn to the Dark side.

    I admire Lucas' storytelling so much because he knows what needs to be done and does it. Could he have had more of Luke, Leia and Han together in TESB? He could have had an entire section of Han and Leia going to rescue the lost Luke then finding him and being set upon by Wampas? Sure he could but to what story purpose?

    All that was needed was in the movie.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
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  15. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    Acting goes a long way for Han and Luke. We actually see them acting like real human beings and not weird space monks. They're also bickering, but in an annoyed with each other way, not in a "I hate this other person" kind of way. Plus, we don't begin TESB with a scene where Han talks to Leia about how much Luke is holding him back. They bicker like friends, but there's animosity between them.

    As for all the other points, it really just boils down to what we see versus what we're told is going on. It seems like the audience is supposed top view Obi-Wan and Anakin in AOTC as two goods friends who have been spending too much time together and are nipping at each other. You can see a similar dynamic between Batman and Robin in the movie of the same name from 1997. But the audience only ever gets to see one scene in AOTC with Anakin and Obi-Wan where they're not nipping at each other. Lucas expects the audience to see Anakin and Obi-Wan as old friends by the time we get to AOTC, but he also chose to completely skip over that friendship with a ten year gap.

    Which is why I think it was a weird choice to establish a relationship between Anakin and Qui-Gon in TPM without also having any sort of comradery between Anakin and Obi-Wan. They're two characters who get thrown together at the very end of TPM, then shown again at the beginning of AOTC and through a few quick lines of dialogue, we're told what they're relationship is, but we only see it in one scene; the elevator scene. The rest is just them both talking bad behind the others back.

    In ANH we get tons of interaction moments between Luke, Han, and Leia during the Death Star scenes. No such scenes exist in TPM. Obi-Wan doesn't even go into Mos Espa with the rest of the group and everyone is separated for the climax. Plus there's just plain, normal human body language. Han, Luke, and Leia act like friends in the OT. Like I said, if you're going to have your characters act like weird space monks, then you gotta put effort into other areas to split the difference.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
  16. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 10, 2011
    He understands storytelling economy. Take Attack of the Clones. The first act is spent establishing how Obi-Wan and Anakin relate to each other. It's an uneasy relationship where Anakin feels constricted by Obi-Wan even as Obi-Wan tries, with limited success, to connect emotionally with Anakin. It's a very easy relationship to understand. It's realistic.

    Having established that relationship, he knows it's time to move on. He splits Anakin and Obi-Wan up so that Anakin and Padme's relationship can develop while Obi-Wan bears the burden of progressing the mystery plot forward.

    Then in the third act he brings everyone together again by putting Obi-Wan's life in jeopardy and having Anakin rush to save him along with Padme. As war breaks out, Obi-Wan praises Anakin's judgment for the first time in the movie ("Good call, my young Padawan!") and then puts his faith in his abilities after he saves his life and engages Dooku (tossing him the extra lightsaber).

    Then in the next movie we see that the seeds of this newfound respect, planted by the hardships of war, have blossomed into true friendship. For the first two acts we get to see Anakin and Obi-Wan having the exact relationship we've been yearning for them to have, only for it to dramatically blow apart by the end of the movie. In order for there to be forward progression in the story Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship has to change over the course of each movie. That means it can't have its ups without also having its downs on either side of it.

    When it comes to Luke and Han, their friendship is essentially just a plot device after the first movie. The real story is the relationship between Luke and Vader and the relationship between Han and Leia. Those develop and change a lot and so we spend a lot of time on them in each movie. Not so with the Luke/Han relationship.

    Why would you think that? He clearly expects no such thing. He expects us to see Anakin and Obi-Wan as a troubled teen and a young father who's in over his head. I never had any problem believing that. They successfully convey the impression that they've been dealing with each other for years.

    Again, false. We see it just after the scene with Padme in the apartment, when Obi-Wan goes out of his way to reassure Anakin despite the argument they just had ("She was pleased to see us"). We see it when he tries to comfort Anakin about the nightmares he's been having ("Dreams pass in time.") We see it as they fight together at the end of the movie.

    And in ROTS we get tons of interaction moments with Obi-Wan and Anakin during the opening battle and rescue sequence, and plenty more after that besides.

    What's your problem with the body language here?

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    These people don't seem like friends to you?
     
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  17. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    Because this is what Lucas says in the commentary and almost all of the special features released on the DVD that came out in 2002.

    I already stated they do seem like friends in the beginning of ROTS. Thanks for agreeing with me and also posting examples.
     
  18. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    I think they can be both old friends and have a strained interplay. @The_Phantom_Calamari said in the post:
    I think the movie can show both sides of that. To me, an older brother, rebellious younger brother dynamic, but still people who can be friendly and seek to help and give advice and help. Brothers can care about eachother and fight and bicker and argue like children, but still show caring and try to help eachother.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
  19. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    Yeah, a movie can do that. But does AOTC accomplish that? And why go about trying to show that dynamic in the way that it does? Why lean so hard into hating each other territory. Even little moments like when Anakin and Padme get brought out to the arena and Anakin says they came to rescue Obi-Wan, why can't Obi-Wan give a legitimate heartfelt thanks.? Instead the two of them are constantly nipping at one another throughout the runtime.

    My main issue is that all of the character development happens off screen. Nothing about TPM informs us about AOTC, it all happens between films. And then the dynamic between Anakin and Obi-Wan changes again for ROTS, but again it happens off screen.

    I honestly wonder if anyone who hadn't already seen the OT would even know that these two characters are supposed to be friends during AOTC.
     
  20. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    It goes even further for Obi-Wan and Anakin over two movies in multiple sequences that explore their relationship and it's development. Unlike the former who really only have actually meaningful scenes in a very few scenes in one movie. A relationship that is beautifully simple. Two guys meet, find one another annoying, share a couple of gun battles and decide they'd like to hang out but the one guy takes off but then comes back and they are now best friends and that is that.

    That's great as it is but that is nice and simple which is not what Obi-Wan and Anakin have. That's a whole other level of build and change necessary.

    So that means that you didn't at all buy Luke's relationships with those "weird space monks" Obi-Wan and Yoda? Never mind with Vader. That one is really weirdo!

    AOTC has the bickering and annoyance but it's actually "I love this other person." kind of way.

    Well there wouldn't be because Han is his friend not his teacher. The comparison there is to Yoda.

    Yes, camaraderie, animosity, and total faith in each other are all in the mix.

    What we see is what we are being told. It's one and the same. The approach is no different than Luke and Han. What is different is what is being told in the story.

    Of course they are friends but at this point they are teacher/father and student/son first and foremost. The brothers aspect comes later and this is all part of how it's being built to then seen in ROTS.

    That is demonstrably not the case. The ten years is clearly about the training Anakin has been getting. The parallel to Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan is that at 19 Anakin is impatient to break away and become a Jedi Knight compared to the ever calm Obi-Wan who is patient and will wait until he is called to the Jedi trials.

    How can Anakin have any relationship with those "weird" space monks? For that to happen doesn't he have to join the space monks and learn their ways so that he too can become a weird space monk himself?

    TPM clearly gives us the reason for their relationship. Qui-Gon has Obi-Wan take on training Anakin. Qui-Gon believed in him which is why Obi-Wan is doing it.

    Between myself and The_Phantom_Calamari we've given point after point on the state of, intentions for and development of Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship over AOTC and ROTS. For whatever reason you are focused on some "old friends" camradery that is not part of nor is present in AOTC in the particular way that you seem to want it. I get that you wanted that to be there and wish it was but it isn't there in that way and was never going to be. Then the great friendship and camaraderie that you seem to want is fully and completely on display in ROTS but somehow it's only a "hint".

    With them bitching, whining and complaining to each other. They're also bickering not in an annoyed with each other way but an "I hate this other person" kind of way. See how easy that was to do? The full context for those scenes come out of what happens afterwards. Anakin so dislikes Obi-Wan that he goes to save him, they fight together at the arena then they work together going after Dooku.

    Yes. There are no Death Star scenes in TPM.

    We do however have the Jedi battling Darth Maul together while Padme attacks the castle and Anakin shuts down the droids as they all work together to defeat the Trade Federation as Luke, Leia and Han are all separate as they ultimately play their parts to destroy the Death Star.

    Not sure what you mean by plain normal human body language. What that means to you exactly I don't know. This is Star Wars so it's more about grand mythic space opera body language and movement from the human characters plus add in the droids, vehicles etc etc.

    I think that has all be ably gone over already. The difference between the kind of relationship that Luke and Han have compared to Obi-Wan and Anakin. I could do another whole analysis of Leia compared to Padme but let's set that one aside this time and go with what was the focus of the recent posts.

    The effort and results to do this "split the difference" referred to is exactly what was done. Luke and Han as demonstrated were very simple and direct. They met and very quickly became friends. End of story. There was no more to tell.

    Obi-Wan and Anakin met and very quickly became teacher and student. Beginning of story. There was way more to tell. And it was first in AOTC with their father/son and teacher/student dynamic. Then the next part was the brothers-in arms to brother vs brother in ROTS.

    They weren't together because they simply met and became friends. Their relationship was based on a "weird space monk" from the weird space monk order bringing someone into being a weird space monk but that weird space monkness was very difficult for him to get a handle on because he came into it too late.

    As I said before Obi-Wan is Obi-Wan not Han. Obi-Wan, Yoda and Vader all get different relationships with Luke. None of them are going to be in the same vein as the simple Tom Sawyer to Huck Finn or whatever kind of boyhood friend relationships that exist. Their relationship as per the story had to be deeper, more developed and nuanced and fault in the end because it had to crack. Something that never was going to happen to Luke and Han because that was not the story that was going to be told.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
  21. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    What's with the attitude? You don't have to be condescending.

    You know what I mean The fun/ action scene banter. We don't get any of that until AOTC.

    I'm sorry, but by the time we get to ROTS and we're supposed to be watching these heartbreak scenes as Anakin destroys these relationships that he's built over this trilogy, I'm just not buying it.

    I do find it funny that people keep coming into a thread about redoing the PT and being surprised that there are posters in here that weren't happy with the end product of the PT. What did you expect to find?
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
  22. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    That commentary/rhetorical question was neither needed nor appropriate.
     
  23. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    What does he say specifically? I'd be interested to see what you're referring to. Context is important.

    Is that a rhetorical question?

    (That was rhetorical, you don't have to answer that.)
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2021
    Qui-Riv-Brid likes this.
  24. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    Have Maul be on the main ship of the blockade from the get go. Have Palpatine already know that the Jedi are on their way and have the blockade destroy the Republic ship that the Jedi are on as soon as the Jedi arrive. The Jedi would survive this and still manage to save the Queen.

    Have Maul be hesitant to tell Palpatine that the Jedi weren't killed and managed to escape with the Queen. Maul goes to Tatooine to kill them before they can reach Coruscant.

    Maul fails at killing the Jedi and the Queen on Tatooine. Palpatine finds out about everything that has happened (implied to have been told by the Neimoidians) and we get the following exchange.

    ---

    A red light is flashing on the center holoprojector as Mauls' speeder can be heard nearing from the distance. The speeder comes to a stop outside the boarding ramp. Maul comes up into the ship. He looks to the blinking light with worry on his face. He walks over to a computer built into the wall with his back to the projector as he tries to get his breath. Maul turns to the light once more, and then turns away trying to build the courage to answer. Suddenly a hologram of a dark cloaked figure appears.

    SIDIOUS: How long did you think you could ignore me?

    Maul quickly turns around, speeds to the hologram, and drops to his knees.

    MAUL: I am sorry. I have failed you.

    The hologram points to Maul.

    SIDIOUS: I told you to destroy the Jedi upon their arrival and then proceed with the invasion unbeknownst to the Republic. Only once we secured Naboo would we inform the Republic capital and watch them lose their collective minds. Instead you allowed the Jedi to escape.

    MAUL: (defeated) Yes, my lord.

    SIDIOUS: I can use that to my advantage.

    Maul turns his gaze upward to the shadowy hologram with a bit of relief in his eyes.

    SIDIOUS: What I can’t use is a Jedi corpse in the middle of the desert.

    The hologram suddenly makes a clenched fist. Maul is lifted into the air and begins to choke.

    SIDIOUS: Once the Jedi and the Queen reach Coruscant I will be able to manipulate things to our benefit, but I need time to come up with a plan. This is why it is important that you communicate with me so I don’t have to find out about these problems of yours through secondary channels. I do not have time for you to lick your wounds and come up with excuses of which I am sure you have many.

    The hologram opens its hand and drops Maul to the floor, gasping.

    SIDIOUS: Do not fail me again

    The dark lord points at Maul before the hologram flickers out. Maul looks to where the hologram just was as he rubs his neck in astonishment.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2021
  25. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2019
    Are you sure you weren't just openly accepting Obi-Wan's words without questioning them . . . just as Luke did? Also, friendship or not, Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship originally had to be one between teacher and student. After all, Obi-Wan did state that he had been Anakin's Jedi teacher.
     
    The_Phantom_Calamari likes this.