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PT Rewriting the Prequels...

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by swrescripted, Jan 23, 2013.

  1. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Yes, preference derives from function...but that is merely part of it.


    The fact that you prefer the Anakin/Obi-Wan dynamic in the PT to the Luke/Han dynamic in the OT speaks to the incredible amount of subjectivity that we (the individual viewer) brings to the experience.

    From a writing standpoint, Han and Luke's relationship is more clearly, more efficiently, and (in many cases) more effectively written than the Obi-Wan/Anakin relationship.

    Again, part of this is because Anakin and Obi-Wan are more central to the overall PT narrative (and have more narrative weight to bear), yet some of this comes down to the fact that (again) we are mostly "told" about Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship through on the nose dialogue/exposition. Whereas the OT shows us the why/what/how of Luke and Han's relationship.

    Consider the following exchange:

    PADME:
    Annie, are you just going to sit here and let him die?? He's your friend... your mentor...

    ANAKIN: ...He's like my father, but you heard Master Windu. He gave me strict orders to stay here.

    This dialogue is used to tell us that Obi-Wan is Anakin's friend, mentor, father figure. Yet, we only really see the mentor dynamic in action in this film.

    We have no experience with /examples of Obi-Wan and Anakin being particularly friendly with each other and we are 1/2 through the PT. Heck @ThisIsTheWay claims that they aren't even friends at this point, but merely master and apprentice.

    We have no examples of Anakin and Obi-Wan behaving like father and son either, despite the fact that this analogy is made twice in the movie...though dialogue.

    If it were not for this dialogue we'd have no inkling that Kenobi and Anakin are like father son because this doesn't come across in the writing, the acting, their portrayals, how the characters behave/interact, etc.

    Bottom line:

    You like Anakin/Obi-Wan's dynamic more (find it more interesting) than the dynamic between Han and Luke. That's cool. That doesn't mean that (objectively speaking) their dynamic "functions better" within the structure of the movie/narrative/plot. It simply means you like it better. There is nothing wrong with that. I think these two are my favorite duo as well.

    However, I also acknowledge that the PT narrative could have done a much better job showing us the development/growth of the Obi-Wan/Anakin relationship rather than jumping from point to point and telling us what they are to each other via dialogue.

    Again, I think re-writing Episode 1 to have Obi-Wan be the Jedi that discovers/advocates for/bonds with Anakin would have been a stronger choice for the entire saga. Certainly, this is what the OT had hinted at.

    As I said, I think it's only ROTS that really nailed the execution of showing us the how, what, and why of Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
  2. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    Good for you, I guess? Obi-Wan/Anakin absolutely functions better to me. That's why I like it. You're just using a lot of words to essentially throw back, "yell, well that's your opinion!"

    Sorry, but I'm not a "I like the PT, but..." type of guy.
     
  3. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    Not according to George Lucas. Listen to the DVD commentary of AOTC when Anakin and Obi-Wan are on the elevator up to Padme's apartment.
     
  4. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    I'm sorry. I thought we were in a thread devoted to the fantasy of re-writing the PT to enhance it, make it work better, make it function more seamlessly than it does. Are we not?

    If you are in here to merely say: The PT is perfect as is, or that you aren't open to considering other viewpoints, or weak spots in the PT, I'm not sure what the point is.

    Essentially, you are telling us that it's works well for you without providing examples illustrating/backing up your point of view. In an effort to engage you, I did ask you to expand on your take on things a few times, but you've refused.

    Simply put: You are the one saying, "Nope! It's all good for me" and not contributing much else other than your opinion.

    And I'm not someone that needs to label those with differing opinions or put them into boxes. Thanks for the chat.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
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  5. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    So? This isn't a fan fiction forum, so blanket praise for other ideas just because they're other ideas isn't required. Also I could dissect a bunch of scenes in the PT where I get a sense of a relationship that entails friendship, mentor/protege, and father/son elements. I assume the effort will just be wasted in another around of "that's your opinion!"
     
  6. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Not at all. I welcome it this type of thing is why I engaged you in the first place. I'd love to see examples that you provide. Perhaps I am overlooking something.

    Make no mistake. I am am an absolute fan/lover of the PT. I just was geeking out in getting into the hypothetical posited by this thread about how one could improve/enhance the trilogy through a re-write. I agree with @FightoftheForgotten and the assessment that Kenobi in place of Qui-Gon's role in Episode 1 would have been a stronger choice.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
  7. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    The elevator scene, how Obi-Wan attempts to get Anakin to refocus his nervous energy. Very brotherly moment, then the tone changes a bit to Obi-Wan taking over when they actually talk to Padme and I get a real sense of Anakin feeling more like a kid feeling a bit downgraded compared to his father taking center stage when it comes time for business. It's such a natural moment to me, how being with a parent can suddenly transition from total loose normalcy to awkwardness when one's crush is thrown into the situation.

    "Why do I get the feeling you'll be the death of me." Anakin's reaction strikes me as genuinely apologetic in a manner similar to a kid realizing just how much they can frustrate their parent, but then the moment quickly passes and the two just get on with things. Also a hallmark of a healthy parent/kid relationship, how the tense personal moments can suddenly just evaporate.

    The "dreams pass in time" moment in Padme's apartment. Anakin bares his soul in such a manner it's painfully clear to me Obi-Wan is one of the few people he's comfortable enough to be himself around. And Obi-Wan's reaction is spot on in terms of someone who is sympathetic to the fact of his friend being troubled while also cognizant of the realities of the situation and what is best for Anakin. Spot on job of a scene that details the multi-faceted complexities of the relationship for me.

    Basically anytime they interact I get a sense of this.
     
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  8. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    The one scene that I think works best between Hayden and Ewan is the scene in ROTS where Obi-Wan tells Anakin that he is expected to spy on the Chancellor. Everything about that scene is spot on as far as their friendship being strained by the powers that be. When Anakin asks Obi-Wan why he is putting him in this position and Obi-Wan puts blame on the Jedi council, I feel that strain between them.

    My issue with that is, we're roughly 45 minutes (somewhere around that point??) into the third film by this point. As an audience member I've seen 13 years worth of relationship spread out over the course of roughly five hours by this point. And yet, the earliest scene's of this friendship are only a little over a half an hour ago in this movie.

    Everything about this great scene gets deflated because it's referencing a friendship I never got a chance to invest in because I never saw it blossom between AOTC and ROTS. Even if you're the type of person who thinks that Anakin and Obi-Wan have a workable friendship in AOTC, that relationship still began off-screen between TPM and AOTC.

    To me, these little strains on their friendship would be way more meaningful if we'd got to see this friendship for longer than 30 to 45 minutes.

    As counterpoint to what I've written above, and in reference to OT friendships, I'd like to bring up the relationship between Han and Lando. We only get to see Lando in the last 40 some odd minutes of TESB and yet Han and Lando go through ups and downs. I have a feeling it's because, although we're told they have a past history that resulted in a falling out, the audience never actually experiences it. We only see these two from the forgiveness point onward.

    I guess what I'm saying is adding difficulties to the Anakin and Obi-Wan relationship prior to the events of ROTS seems like a detriment (IMO) to the overall purpose of their dynamic; that being two friends who have a falling out because one of them falls to the dark side.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
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  9. ThisIsTheWay

    ThisIsTheWay Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2019
    Anakin and Obi-Wan aren't just friends like Han and Luke or Finn and Poe were. Over time their relationship evolved and each movie should reflect that (and does with varying degrees of success).

    I don't particularly care what the commentary says. Between what's shown on screen and what we know about their relationship up to this point, they can't be friends yet. It doesn't make sense that they would be until they are free from the burden of being teacher/student.

    Can they like and care about one another? Of course they can (and do).
    Can they be friends? No.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
  10. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    Then you have to also admit that Lucas missed whatever mark he set for himself then. You can't have it both ways.
     
  11. ThisIsTheWay

    ThisIsTheWay Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2019
    ... I don’t recall arguing about that one way or the other. All I said was how I viewed the status of their relationship during AOTC.
     
  12. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    Just trying to get clarification for my own sake, that's all.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
  13. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011

    Luke and Han's relationship develops in a very simplistic way over the course of A New Hope (as already acknowledged), doesn't really develop at all in Empire, and then culminates in Return of the Jedi when Han acknowledges Luke's abilities and says he owes him one. This is of course development, but it's very rudimentary compared to that of Anakin and Obi-Wan. It is not a deep or complex relationship.

    The entirety of Attack of the Clones is about showing this teacher/student relationship. Maybe you missed that one, it came out back in 2002.

    Oh, so you have seen it. Baffling.

    Anakin's assertion that Obi-Wan is jealous is his own perception. We can see the sorts of situations that cause Anakin to think this, such as when Anakin publicly contradicts Obi-Wan about the parameters of their mission and is harshly rebuked, despite being later proven correct. There's also this exchange:

    This is so transparently about the exact thing we're talking about that I'm not sure how you could have missed it.

    We likewise see multiple instances of Obi-Wan trying to reel Anakin in or otherwise restrain his recklessness--holding him back. Also not sure how you could have missed this.

    We did see it develop, during the final battle sequence in Episode II. For the first time, Obi-Wan praises Anakin's good judgment, and then has to trust in Anakin's abilities to save his life during the duel with Dooku. This carries over to and is expanded on in Episode III.

    Recall that the development of Han and Luke's friendship occurs in a comparable way, as result of fighting beside each other in life-or-death situations. The difference is that Luke and Han do not start off with nearly as complicated a relationship as Anakin and Obi-Wan, and as a result we get much less insight into it through its development, simply because there's not as much there. There's nothing wrong with that, because there doesn't need to be.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2021
  14. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004

    The point stands: The Han and Luke relationship features more onscreen development than we witness onscreen with Anakin and Obi-Wan...which, again, develops mainly offscreen.

    Also, we are not arguing on the deepness or complexity of the relationship, we are arguing about if it is developed on screen, or not.

    Right, but we never see it evolve into or out of that.

    In Episode 1, Obi-Wan and Anakin have no relationship and the movie ends with Obi-Wan taking the kid on as a Padawan.

    Furthermore, in Episode 2, their relationship is static. It doesn't change/evolve in the film at all. Episode 2 closes out with Anakin and Obi-Wan having the exact same relationship they have at the beginning. The relationship/dynamic between these two simply does not evolve/change in Episode 2 at all.

    Zing! You got me. Good one. :-B I'm a huge fan of the film. Sorry if that's disappointing to you.

    Right, but this dynamic between them exists right off the bat from the outset of Episode 2. There is no onscreen development that occurs. Again, as the film begins...Anakin and Obi-Wan already exist this way, and the film closes out with them having the same dynamic. The relationship does not evolve onscreen, it is static from the beginning of the film to the end.

    I'm not sure what you are arguing, or if you are "hearing" me. Of course Obi-Wan and Anakin have tenuous mentor/student relationship. We just never see how it got there, nor how it evolves into one of friendship/brotherhood. These changes all occur offscreen.

    What? This is a serious reframing of events and not accurate. Let's break it down.

    The final battle sequence features Obi-Wan yelling at/reprimanding Anakin on the gunship when Anakin wants to put the ship down after Padme falls out. Obi-Wan chastises him and brings up expulsion from the Jedi order. Then, when they've cornered Dooku, Anakin (once again) disobeys Obi-Wan's instructions/advice and both pay the price for it.

    When does Obi-Wan praise his good judgement? For knowing when to blast an escaping ship? Is this what you are talking about?

    This occurs moments before Anakin has an epic meltdown and crisis of conscience and Obi-Wan is (once again) talking his apprentice off the proverbial ledge... just like he's been doing since the beginning of the movie. The relationship hasn't evolved.

    Why does he have to trust Anakin to save him in the duel with Dooku? Because, just like at the beginning of the film, Anakin doesn't listen to his master. He's still arrogant and headstrong. Again, this is the same as it was at the beginning of the film. Plus, Anakin doesn't ultimately save Obi-Wan...Yoda does.

    At no point is Obi-Wan like, "Hey good job on jeopardizing the mission over personal feelings for Padme." "Good job on jeopardizing our lives by rushing in to take Dooku yourself." Obi-Wan comments on Anakin's ability to recognize when to blow stuff up. Hell, Anakin was good at this skill as a 9/10 year old. What's new?

    Again, whether Han and Luke's relationship is complicated, or not, is irrelevant. Unlike, Obi-Wan and Anakin, we see Han and Luke's relationship form, change, grow, and evolve ONSCREEN over the course of 3 films.

    Heck, the fact that Obi/Annie have a more complicated relationship is all the more reason we should have seen it evolve/play out onscreen, rather than in between films.

    With Anakin and Obi-Wan, they start each film in a new spot with the relationship having evolved/changed offscreen in between films. As I have said, Episode 3 is the only film that really shows a (de)evolution of their dynamic.

    Ergo, when "rewriting the Prequels" it would be a nice touch to show the Anakin/Obi-Wan relationship evolving onscreen. A good start might have been to have Obi-Wan in the Qui-Gon role from the outset because, as it currently exists, Obi-Wan and Anakin have virtually no relationship in that film.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2021
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  15. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    That's already been gone over by several posters in this thread. We can quibble about a word here or there but IIRC there was the one poster who used the terminology that all we got from ROTS was a "hint" of a friendship between Obi-Wan and Anakin.

    That is something I would definitely use the term "bogus" for because if that was a hint then Luke and Han must be less than a hint. Maybe a glimmer at best. I'd say that is not the case in either relationship. Both are done very well and economically but between the two the breadth of development of character and time placed into them across the trilogy, especially Episodes II and III is very demonstrable.

    I agree with your use of the term economical. Their relationship for what it is used for in the movies is done very well. As
    The_Phantom_Calamari says

    "The point of watching characters in movies is to see their relationships with each other grow and develop, not remain static. And if their relationship does remain static, then a proportionally smaller amount of time should be spent on that relationship in favor of showing other important things. In Episodes II and III, we do happen to spend a large chunk of time on the Obi-Wan/Anakin relationship, and that's because their relationship in each movie is notably different."

    He understands storytelling economy. Take Attack of the Clones. The first act is spent establishing how Obi-Wan and Anakin relate to each other. It's an uneasy relationship where Anakin feels constricted by Obi-Wan even as Obi-Wan tries, with limited success, to connect emotionally with Anakin. It's a very easy relationship to understand. It's realistic.

    Having established that relationship, he knows it's time to move on. He splits Anakin and Obi-Wan up so that Anakin and Padme's relationship can develop while Obi-Wan bears the burden of progressing the mystery plot forward.

    Then in the third act he brings everyone together again by putting Obi-Wan's life in jeopardy and having Anakin rush to save him along with Padme. As war breaks out, Obi-Wan praises Anakin's judgment for the first time in the movie ("Good call, my young Padawan!") and then puts his faith in his abilities after he saves his life and engages Dooku (tossing him the extra lightsaber).

    Then in the next movie we see that the seeds of this newfound respect, planted by the hardships of war, have blossomed into true friendship. For the first two acts we get to see Anakin and Obi-Wan having the exact relationship we've been yearning for them to have, only for it to dramatically blow apart by the end of the movie. In order for there to be forward progression in the story Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship has to change over the course of each movie. That means it can't have its ups without also having its downs on either side of it.

    When it comes to Luke and Han, their friendship is essentially just a plot device after the first movie. The real story is the relationship between Luke and Vader and the relationship between Han and Leia. Those develop and change a lot and so we spend a lot of time on them in each movie. Not so with the Luke/Han relationship
    .

    Not in the least. The Obi-Wan and Anakin relationship is many-fold onscreen to anything Luke and Han do. It's simply not comparable in depth. In form there are parallels. Luke and Han basically meet in ANH, have some jostling as you describe then have a good friendship and that is basically that. The rudimentary development you talk about happens. What actual evolution is there? They are best friends at the end of ANH and remain that for the next two movies. Nothing develops in any major way. Luke and Han have no scenes of any real import because that isn't where Luke's story exists. His story is with Obi-Wan, Yoda, Vader and Sidious with one scene with Leia so Vader can have a way to incite Luke to anger later.

    It's explicitly shown and developed onscreen for everything that is of the utmost importance to the story!

    I will never understand the perspective of seeing Lucas' movies through the dialogue. The dialogue is support for the visuals and music. The dialogue has a lot of importance but it's NOT where the movie exists. We are told Obi-Wan takes on being Anakin's teacher by all the scenes after Obi-Wan has cut down Maul. The scenes with Qui-Gon, then Obi-Wan and Yoda then Obi-Wan and Anakin then the end scene where Anakin in now in padawan gear with his haircut. That's like saying that the Luke and Han friendship is told to us by dialogue and not Han coming back, saving Luke, letting him take the shot then embracing later and walking side by side in the medal ceremony.

    Yet unlike ANH Obi-Wan and Anakin are together but with separation between them. The friendship and unity visually speaks at the start of ROTS after the events of AOTC.

    That's like saying that all we need to know about Luke on the homestead is through his dialogue with Owen. The whole staring at the twin suns that follows that dialogue isn't necessary I guess?

    I think it's safe to say you wouldn't want that scene cut? That's like saying that Lucas should have added another paragraph to the opening crawl, pan down to Tatooine and start the movie proper with the droids getting out of the escape capsule!

    For the second time I will assert the not understanding this perspective of seeing the movie through dialogue. Scene after scene in AOTC through visuals and music with support from dialogue shows us the state of their teacher to student and father to son relationship. His resentment is a son to his father and/or a frustrated student to his teacher who he also very clearly loves and wants approval from. Anakin has never had a solo assignment before. This is where the dialogue supports the frustrations because we see his bristling under Obi-Wan as well as how they care for one another. The dialogue like inter-text in a silent movie tells us that Anakin feels he is ready for the trials.

    In the way Lucas movies work we see the direct parallel between the TPM relationship where Qui-Gon believes that his student Obi-Wan has little more to learn from him compared to AOTC where it's the student Anakin who is the one who believes he had little more to learn from Obi-Wan.

    The entire point is that Anakin's perception that Obi-Wan is "holding him back" is in his head and not actually the case. This is the young Vader that wanted power that Obi-Wan talked about that was seduced by the Dark side. Anakin simply could not be portrayed as everything being always great and wonderful between himself and Obi-Wan. If Anakin has no thoughts of wanting power for the things he wants then there is literally no basis for the turn in ROTS.

    I know this is probably tiring for you to see me write this but once I will assert not understanding seeing the movie through dialogue. Words are important but secondary and supportive to where Lucas tells the story of the movie through his characters, the visual designs, motion and movements through the cuts and the music:

    " I like visual imagery, but I started out in pure film which is really a kinetic experience. So that's where my focus is. That's why I intend more of a kinship with silent films than more modern film. I like the old cinema. My films are more of a hybrid – a different style of filmmaking to what I call talking head movies."

    " I believe half a movie is the sound. The sound is extremely important, but the dialogue is not. That's not where the issue is."

    "On the editorial level, which is the cinematic level, movies are a mass of objects moving across a large surface. You're watching these little details, which are the ones that make the cut work, as they move through the back of the frame. You're orchestrating how these things flow, by deciding how you cut from one shot to another. The subtlety of the medium demands that a star break the frame at the right moment, because what reaction you get has a lot to do with spatial relationships: where things are in the frame, what color things are, where the bright objects are--and where you eye is going to be.

    "When the movie cuts to a different shot, if your eye has to move a great distance to follow an object, it becomes a rough cut; if your eye stays in the same place, then it's a smooth cut. If your eye has to move too much, you're usually lost for two frames on a cut. You don't understand what you're seeing because you can't register it that fast. If you're just cutting dialogue, it doesn't matter; it's just talking heads and the emphasis is all on the dialogue. But in my films, the dialogue is not where the movie is. My films are basically in the graphics. The emotional impact comes from the music and from juxtaposing one image with the next.

    "Cinema is about moving images. But it's moving from one image to the next that creates emotional impact."

    The entirety of AOTC was in a far more involved and complex way parallel to Luke and Han in ANH. Not exactly the same of course but they both follow the basic jostle and argue, split apart then come together at the end as friends.

    The actual visual and music difference is that we get this scene at the end of ANH:



    While Lucas held the parallel scene of unity and friendship at the start of ROTS:



    Lucas made a point of having them be together but not totally 100% yet. Hence they go to fight Dooku together but Lucas makes the point of Anakin's impatience. Each loses to Dooku but protect each other. Then in ROTS we get not only the above but the entire sequence with the two of them in unison together to fight Dooku together then even after Obi-Wan is knocked out Anakin refuses to leave him behind even at the urging of Palpatine.

    I just don't know what to say to that. It's pretty much completely the opposite. The bulk of the actual true development and evolution takes place onscreen. At the end of TPM they are teacher and student. In-between the movies they are just that. AOTC then sees where they are at that time. AOTC ends with them as two Jedi working together. Anakin makes the decision to do his Jedi duty and remain with the order fighting in the Clone Wars. Sure we don't get to see some formal change like Anakin getting a knighthood but we don't need to as that will be evident at the start of the next movie. Then ROTS is nothing but showing us the development and evolution that relationship took and takes.

    Once again I have to disagree with your stance on seeing the movie through the dialogue. The dialogue has it's importance but it's secondary to the visuals and music which is were Lucas' movies exist.

    The point is that for the PT and ROTS it isn't. It's entirely the basis of the turn. When there are comments like "Anakin's turn comes out of nowhere doesn't it?" I respond with: "It's been building through two and half movies by the time it happens so no I don' t think it's out of nowhere at all." It's not a quick turn but a slow burn.

    I'm discussing the copious amounts of onscreen development through all 3 movies but particularly Obi-Wan and Anakin from the end of TPM through AOTC and ROTS. The reason why it's so brilliant in ROTS is due to all the groundwork done in the two movies previous to that.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2021
  16. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    @Qui-Riv-Brid
    I appreciate the long, thought out, detailed response.

    If you don't mind, I am going to avoid responding to you reposting of @The_Phantom_Calamari 's ideas as I have already debated those points.

    In particular, my last post addressed the fact that Obi-Wan and Anakin have a static relationship throughout Episode 2 and (almost) no relationship in Episode 1, etc.

    I've already stated that Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship is much more of a central focus to the plot of the PT than anything between Luke and Han in the OT.

    Yet, this doesn't negate the fact that we don't really see the development of Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship occur on screen until Episode 3. It occurs in between films, whereas Luke and Han evolve on screen....despite the fact that the Han/Luke dynamic doesn't bear as much narrative weight.


    Han and Luke are antagonistic towards each other when first meeting. We literally see them become great friends onscreen within the first film. That's still more onscreen relationship building than we see between Anakin and Obi-Wan.

    We NEVER see the moment Anakin and Obi-Wan bond, become friends, brothers, etc. This all occurs offscreen.

    Again, they begin Episode 2 and Episode 3 with their relationship already pre-made. It changed in between films.

    You are absolutely right. Luke's relationship with Han is NOT central to his arc or the overall narrative. That's why it's so confounding that the evolution Han and Luke's relationship (rudimentary as you claim it is) is more developed onscreen than Obi-Wan/Anakin.

    Please illustrate how Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship is developed/different from the beginning of Episode 2 to the end of Episode 2. I just don't see it.

    I agree! Which is why it's perplexing that we are primarily told of Anakin/Obi-Wan's relationship rather than shown.

    Yes. This is established through primarily through dialogue. A big talking scene between Yoda and Kenobi. Obi-Wan will train Anakin. Tell me, what information did we get about Obi-Wan/Anakin's relationship did we get that we didn't already know from Episode 4?

    What? I am not sure what you are getting at. We aren't told that Han and Luke are friends via a talk heavy exposition scene. We are shown when Han saves Luke and they embrace/celebrate/get medals together after the battle.

    Compare this to the Yoda/Obi-Wan exposition scene that relies completely on dialogue to let us know Obi-Wan will be training Anakin.

    Again, this is unclear as to what you are getting at. They aren't friends until Episode 3? How/when did they go from simply master/apprentice to friends/brothers? That's my point. It occurs offscreen. We don't see this bond formed in Episode 1 or Episode 2.

    Again, this is in stark contrast to Han and Luke's relationship...and it's crazy considering how central Anakin/Obi-Wan's relationship is to the PT plot.

    I'm not sure what you are getting at here. The OT is superb at showing relationships develop in any number of ways. I am not arguing to the contrary. The PT...not as much...it has wonderful visuals, but a lot of on the nose dialogue/exposition.

    ??? What are you getting at? My critique is that the prequels rely too much on telling vs. showing. The OT is fine.

    Okay. Strip out the dialogue of AOTC. Visuals, sound fx, and music only. What scene in Episode 2 is an example of Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship developing into something different than what it is at the start? As I've said, they maintain a static relationship the entire movie.They are the same at the end as they are in the beginning?

    Again, this ALL comes from expository dialogue. It's also there from the beginning of the film and there at the end. The Anakin/Obi-Wan relationship simply doesn't evolve in Episode 2. In Episode 3 they start at a place they were not at when we leave off from AOTC.

    Again, this all comes from dialogue/exposition. I'm not sure what you are trying to prove here. Furthermore, this (again) doesn't show an evolution/change in the Anakin/Obi-Wan dynamic in the film.

    No kidding. What does this have to do with the development of Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship? This is merely contrasting different character dynamics, not evolving things onscreen during a film.

    It is? Where did this perception come from? Is there a grain of truth to Anakin's pov? We don't know. Why? Because this attitude/dynamic/perception was developed offscreen in between movies.

    Question: Why are things not "great and wonderful" between Anakin and Obi-Wan in Episode 2? We don't know. The movie opens up and Anakin is going against his master. Obviously, we know he's going to become Vader, yet, in the context of the movie (Or PT) it makes little sense. We have no reason shown to us why Anakin would think Obi-Wan was "jealous" or "holding him back". We are never shown examples of this...we only have Anakin telling us this.

    I don't need a lesson on the fact that Lucas is mainly a visual story teller. That's a well know fact. It's bemusing that he doesn't show us the evolution of Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship onscreen during each film (save for Episode 3). Lucas leaves most of the heavy lifting about how/what/why Anakin and Obi-Wan are the way they are to the dialogue. Weird, right? He tells us, he doesn't show us.

    Show me where, in AOTC, Obi-Wan and Anakin go from being master/apprentice to brothers/ best friends. I double dare you. That shift does NOT occur onscreen.

    After barely interacting in the film. This relationship is put on Obi-Wan out of an obligation to Qui-Gon, not because of anything between Obi/Annie.

    Which is where they start they film. They are two Jedi adept at working together. Anakin being brash, passionate, rushing into things is how they start and end the film. Where's the growth/development/change?

    You should just stop here are repeat the underlined part over and over again. This is primarily how the Anakin/Obi-Wan relationship is developed.



    They start Episode 3 as brothers (which is not where we left them in Episode 2). We see them dissolve into mortal enemies. It's the most onscreen movement we get between the two and their relationship/dynamic.




    Again, I have to ask: If AOTC were a silent movie, what visuals would suggest an onscreen evolution/change of Anakin's relationship with Obi-Wan? If not for dialogue we'd not get it on visuals alone. Again, this is in stark contrast to Han/Luke in Episode 4.

    It isn't what? I am unclear with what you are getting at here. I've never said Anakin's turn comes out of nowhere. It makes sense.

    Again, ask yourself: What "copious amounts of onscreen development?"

    Anakin and Obi-Wan have virtually no relationship/interaction in Episode 1. Qui-Gon is the hinge and he charges Obi-Wan at the end of the movie with taking Anakin as a Padawan. That's not relationship building between Anakin and Obi-Wan. That's an element Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon's relationship.

    Episode 2: They are mentor/student at odds at the beginning, and at the end. It's static. Annie does rebellious Jedi-ing. Obi disapproves. It goes that way the entire film.

    Episode 3: The film opens and they are best brothers. This did not develop in Episode 2 and is new. As I have said, Episode 3 does a wonderful job detailing the destruction of this friendship and I have no qualms with it whatsoever.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2021
  17. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    None of this is true. Their relationship is not static in Episode II. The turning point at the end of the second act has to do with Anakin deciding hat he has to ignore Mace Windu's instructions and rush to save Obi-Wan, because (as he says with pointedly less conviction earlier in the movie) Obi-Wan is like a father to him and he loves him the same way he loved his mother. This is of course a rash decision in a way, but it's also a major development in Anakin's feelings towards Obi-Wan. Then after that it is just as I said. Obi-Wan comes to praise Anakin's judgment and to rely on his prowess in battle. Another major development comes when Obi-Wan tears into Anakin for wanting to set the ship down and save Padme at the expense of his duty. Whereas before Anakin acknowledges Obi-Wan's rebukes only reluctantly and with some residual snottiness, here Anakin is genuinely moved to agree with what Obi-Wan tells him he must do. This too is a major development.

    And all these strands carry over into Episode III. Obi-Wan relies on Anakin in battle and, despite some gentle nudging here and there, fundamentally trusts his judgment. Anakin, for his part, has learned the value of patience and internalized the lessons he learned in the last film when he failed to heed Obi-Wan's call to take Dooku together. We see the seeds of the two characters' development in Episode II carry over directly into Episode III where they have fully blossomed.

    This is, indeed, far more than you can say for the Luke/Han relationship which is really defined along a single axis of who now owes what to whom. (Not that I want to make this entirely about a comparison to Luke and Han in the OT, but it's useful as a way to clarify just how substantial Anakin and Obi-Wan's development actually is.)
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2021
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  18. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Saving Obi-Wan was not a decision made by Anakin. Padme has to urge/convince Anakin to do this. She said, your job is to protect me and I'm going to save Obi-Wan. Anakin was reluctant to save Obi-Wan and disobey orders.

    1. Again: It was not a rash decision by Anakin. Padme was calling the shots and made Anakin go along with her to save Obi-Wan. Anakin was reluctant.

    2. How can this moment be a major development in Anakin's feeling for Obi-Wan? Anakin had already (near the beginning of the film) told Obi-Wan that he was "the closest thing (Anakin had) to a father" when they were tailing Zam on Coruscant.

    Again, this dynamic/feeling/relationship was already established as the movie began. Anakin doesn't go have some epiphany, or a change as you are describing.

    Are you talking about this exchange?

    Anakin: "Aim right above the fuel cells."
    Obi-Wan: "Good call, my young Padawan."

    This brief exchange is not a shifting of their relationship dynamic. Anakin has shown this skillset since Episode 1, at least. Obi-Wan is well aware of Anakin's battle prowess/skills and this is made clear at the beginning of the film with this dialogue:

    Obi-Wan: "I haven’t felt you this tense since… since we fell into that nest of gundarks."

    Anakin: "You fell into that nightmare, Master, and I rescued you. Remember?"

    Obi-Wan: "Oh… yes."

    Again, this bit of props for being good at battle is NOT a new development in the Obi-Wan/Anakin dynamic or relationship.

    Nope. This is another version of what we saw earlier in the film. Anakin is following passions rather than the mission. He and Obi-Wan are having the exact same issues that they were at the beginning of the film. The relationship is the same....this isn't a new development.

    This moment features Anakin and Obi-Wan in the same relationship/dynamic as this exchange:

    Anakin: "Why else do you think we were assigned to her, if not to find the killer? Protection is a job for local security... not Jedi. It's overkill, Master. Investigation is implied in our mandate."

    Obi-Wan: "We will do as the Council has instructed, and you will learn your place, young one."

    Anakin is going against procedure, rules, orders, and Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan is putting Anakin back in his place and telling him what's good for the mission, etc.

    Once again, your example isn't a new development in the Obi/Annie relationship. It's the same as the beginning of the film. Nothing has changed between them.

    And here is where the issue is. In Episode 3 Obi-Wan does rely on Anakin and trust his judgement. Yet, this is NOT a strand that carries over from Episode 2. It is a new dynamic without showing us the change.

    Think about it: How does Episode 2 end? With Anakin (again) disobeying Obi-Wan's directive, "We'll take him together," and charging Dooku alone. This allows Dooku to separate the two and defeat both of them soundly. Anakin didn't change. Obi-Wan didn't change. Again, read his exchange:

    OBI-WAN: (to Anakin) "We move in together - you slowly on the..."

    ANAKIN: 'I'm taking him now!

    OBI-WAN: "Anakin, no!"

    What about this suggests some kind of new shifting in dynamic, relationship , trust, or understanding that will extend to Episode 3? This dynamic is the same as what we witnessed between these two earlier in Episode 2.

    If not for Yoda they'd both be dead.

    So how can this utter failure to listen to Obi-Wan be a strand that informs us about why Obi-Wan trusts Anakin's judgement in Episode 3?

    Yes, he learned it and put into practice sometime between Episodes 2 and 3. He doesn't show evidence of learning it in Episode 2, and by the time Episode 3 starts he has.

    This is exactly right. You have made my point for me with this single analogy.

    We see relationship seeds planted in Episode 2. They are fully blossomed Episode 3. What we don't see: The growth. Why? Say it with me: Because it happens in between movies, offscreen, in between Episodes!

    This is what I've been saying. We don't actually see the development of the relationship happen in the films. The changes typically occur offscreen.

    What I can say about Han and Luke's relationship is this. Though it doesn't carry the narrative weight/focus of the Obi-Wan/Anakin relationship, we do actually witness the Han/Luke relationship develop, change, evolve onscreen in front of our eyes.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2021
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  19. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    This is quite the misreading of the scene. Anakin is conflicted because he obviously wants to save Obi-Wan (as is apparent by the emotion in his voice) but he feels he can't because he was given strict orders to stay right where he is. Remember that he already disobeyed strict orders once to come rescue his mother and he ended up being too late anyway, and now he feels terrible about everything that transpired as a result. He doesn't know what he should do, that's why he's so frustrated.

    But then Padme makes the decision for him, and Anakin grins with satisfaction and relief because it allows him to do what he wants without feeling any conflict. You make it sound as if Anakin was just totally apathetic about the situation Obi-Wan was in.

    Because, as I already pointed out, when Anakin says it earlier in the movie it's in a very matter-of-fact way, with much less emotion and conviction, and it's in the middle of yet another argument with Obi-Wan. It's not supposed to be a secret that this is the way Anakin sees his relationship with Obi-Wan. It's deliberately setting things up so that when Anakin says it again in the scene we're discussing, we can note that it's a callback to something we already knew but now with an entirely new perspective on it. We can hear in Anakin's voice that this is something that he really feels, that it does mean something important to him.

    Obi-Wan sheepishly acknowledging something is not the same thing as him enthusiastically saying "Good job" to Anakin for making a good judgment call. We never hear anything like that from him in the first part of the movie. He's always telling Anakin to mind his place, reminding him that he shouldn't do things, or trying to keep him from getting too big for his britches. Obi-Wan commending Anakin and Anakin grinning in appreciation is not something we've seen up to this point--it's a really stark contrast.

    Well, once again you blithely ignored the most important part of what I said about this. It is in fact a new development for Anakin to really listen and internalize what Obi-Wan is saying to him, instead of sullenly repeating "Yes, master" in an aggrieved tone.

    Well, it's not his failure to listen here that informs us about why Obi-Wan trusts Anakin's judgment in Episode III, which is why if you'll examine my post closely you'll see this is something I never said, and in fact said the exact opposite about.

    It's a metaphor, not an analogy.

    This doesn't make sense to me. We do see the growth in Episode II. Then we see a further extrapolation of that growth in Episode III. This is the same as with everything else in these movies. We don't see Luke Skywalker become an experienced commander in Episode IV. We see him start on the path to becoming an experienced commander, and then we see the endpoint of that path in Episode V. We don't see Luke learn from his failure and become a wise Jedi in Episode V, we see him (barely, just barely) start on that path and then we see the endpoint in Episode VI. Totally standard.

    Yes, we see Han start to respect Luke because of his prowess in battle. Then we see him risk his life to save Luke in Episode V, which is really just re-establishing things for the audience because he already did that in Episode IV. Then we see Han start to respect Luke even more in Episode VI because of his even greater prowess in battle. This is all comparable to the development of the Anakin/Obi-Wan relationship, only there's more of the latter and it's a more complicated relationship.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2021
  20. QUIGONMIKE

    QUIGONMIKE Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2009
    Lots of good stuff here on the Ani/Obi relationship. It is fair to say that their friendship & father-son dynamic was not as developed as it could have been. Too much happens off screen. We have to be told about their friendship versus experiencing it more. There are some moments, yes but overall Id have like this fleshed out more. You could argue that the prequel trilogy could have been a quadrilogy. Threres more than enough content for a 4th film to have taken place between AOTC and ROTS.
     
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  21. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Fair enough. How is this an indication that Anakin has changed in his thinking towards Obi-Wan? As has been stated, Anakin has already expressed that he feels like Obi-Wan is his father earlier in the film. This is not a new way of acting/thinking/feeling in regards to the relationship he has with Obi-Wan. Is it? Anakin would have acted this way earlier in the film as well.

    Again, none of this shows a shift/change/evolution in the relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan. Does it? Anakin views Obi-Wan as his father. What change does this scene convey? Would Anakin not have attempted a rescue of Obi-Wan earlier in the film? Would he have been less passionate. I just don't see how this scene conveys development/change of the Anakin/Obi-Wan dynamic.



    What new perspective? Anakin views what differently? How does this illustrate growth/changes between Anakin and Obi-Wan?

    Anakin didn't feel Obi-Wan was his father figure/important to him prior to this moment? That incorrect.

    The film doesn't treat this moment with as much significance as you are suggesting.
    Obi-Wan said: "Good call, my young Padawan."

    You are telling me that you think this is the first time Obi-Wan recognized Anakin's battle prowess and the first time that Obi-Wan genuinely gives Anakin a compliment about said prowess? How can that be?

    Obi-Wan recognized Anakin's skills immediately. As a boy Anakin had enough skill/prowess to single handedly take down a Trade Federation droid control ship. This lines up with Obi-Wan's Episode 4 assessment that he immediately recognized Anakin's skills when first meeting him.

    As Episode 2 begins we are made well aware of Anakin's battle prowess/fighting skills. Obi-Wan is with him during this. Yet, you seem to be claiming this throw away line of "Good call, my young Padawan" is actually the realization of Anakin's prowess finally dawning on Obi-Wan? This seems off the mark.

    Like after a decade together, Obi-Wan just now recognizes that Anakin can fight/fly/strategize/blow things up? As I said, the movie doesn't treat this moment as the big deal that you are suggesting.

    Okay. Let's say you are right. Let's pretend that this moment is Obi-Wan finally getting through to Anakin (when threatening him with expulsion from the Jedi order). How does this change things? Literally seconds later, Anakin is back to, once again, ignoring Obi-Wan's command (as usual) and rushing to take on Dooku alone. The fact that this happens spits in the face of your claim.

    Again: On the gunship, Anakin is once again chided into listening to Obi-Wan and reluctantly doing what he's told. If this moment had really impacted Anakin, the movie disregards this idea by having Skywalker immediately disobey Obi-Wan in the very next scene/moment. Their relationship is the exact same as its been since the beginning of the film.

    So what moment in Episode 2 shows us why Obi-Wan is more trusting of Anakin in Episode 3? The moment is not in Episode 2. Anakin ignores Obi-Wan's orders, commands, advice, from the beginning of AOTC all the way through to the end.

    Simply put: The change in the Obi/Annie dynamic, does NOT occur in Episode 2.

    A quick google search provides this tidbit from masterclass.com:

    "A metaphor is often poetically saying something is something else. An analogy is saying something is like something else to make some sort of an explanatory point. You can use metaphors and similes when creating an analogy."

    Were you not attempting to make some sort of explanatory point? You seem to be arguing to argue now?

    We don't though.

    Think about it: As Episode 2 ends, Obi-Wan and Anakin have the EXACT SAME relationship as they do when the movie begins.

    Nothing really changes onscreen in this regard. The film ends with Anakin still as the (likely to disobey) apprentice to Obi-Wan. They are master and apprentice. Not best friends/brothers. Same as the film started.

    When Episode 3 opens, their relationship has changed to that of brothers/besties. Why? Anakin is older, no longer a Padawan. He is a Jedi Knight, more of a peer. All those occur offscreen between films and are not an example of onscreen development.

    I am not claiming that Luke Skywalker's military career was developed onscreen for us to see within the context films. It isn't. We don;t see the moment Luke becomes a Commander. We can infer it happened offscreen in the aftermath of his role in the battle of Yavin. We do NOT see his career with the rebellion unfold/develop on screen.

    As you say with your "metaphor": We see seeds in one film, the blossom in the next. Not growth. Not development.

    Again, I am not arguing that we see Luke reconcile his failure in ESB onscreen. We don't. As has been pointed out: There is actually a disconnect from what/who Luke is as the end of ESB and what/who he is at the beginning of ROTJ. Why? Because there was some unseen character development that happened off screen.

    You are saying these Luke examples are the SAME as what is going on with Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship and you are absolutely right. All three are examples of character/plot development that occur between films.

    You have spend paragraphs telling me these two relationships (Han/Luke & Obi/Annie) are different, now you are trying to draw parallels to aid your claims? Okay, I'll bite:

    I think you are misconstruing/mis-categorizing the meat of the Han and Luke dynamic in an effort to make it similar to what's going on with Obi/Annie.

    Han and Luke start off somewhat antagonistically in ANH. Think about how they act towards each other in the cantina. As Episode 4 progresses, we see them (with Leia) become hero partners during the rescue of Leia/escape from the Death Star.

    Yet, they aren't quite friends yet. Han massively disappoints Luke by taking the money and abandoning the rebels. Luke is disillusioned and concludes Han is still the arrogant, self serving, smuggler from the cantina. Luckily, he was wrong. Han returns in heroic fashion to save Luke at the movies absolute climax. From this moment on, they are bonded as friends. This is shown in the immediate celebratory moments after returning to Yavin and is cemented by the medal ceremony/victory celebration.

    Think about it: We a shown (almost purely through visuals) that Han and Luke have gone from being antagonistic towards one another to being close friends. Within one film we absolutely see this bond form and cemented.

    Unlike the PT, there is no dialogue where Luke and Han say: "He's my best friend." Why? Because, unlike Anakin and Obi-Wan, there is no need to verbalize what we have been shown. It's all up there onscreen for us to witness. This typically is NOT the case with the relationship of Obi-Wan/Anakin.

    @QUIGONMIKE @The_Phantom_Calamari

    Yup. Listen, I love the prequels. Anakin and Obi-Wan are two of my absolute fav characters. Yet, I'm not going to pretend that a lot of their relationship wasn't developed offscreen. It was. Thank goodness for The Clone Wars series.

    Bottom Line: If I were to rewrite the prequels, I'd have had it be Obi-Wan instead of Qui-Gon. This could give the character more agency in Anakin's Jedi origin, and to create a solid foundation from these two characters to start and develop from.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2021
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  22. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Quite. Yet it's one of the most common complaints directed at the prequels that I've heard. That it's the same as ever for Lucas is somehow overlooked. It's one of the story devices that he uses throughout the movies. Important events happen both before and between the movies. This is intrinsic to the entire structure of the saga.

    The movies end at at certain point. By the next movie a lot has happened but at the same time it's not something that we don't get connective tissue that joins them. There is a logical progression to events. Luke is a more experienced Rebel leader, he has learned more in the Force but needs more training, he's not just hearing Obi-Wan but seeing him as well. These all make sense from where ANH leaves off. Same for ROTJ where he now is that much more experienced after his encounter with Vader, he can build a Lightsaber, he's felt the good in Vader and uses that belief through the movie.

    The same for Anakin as he by AOTC he's had years of training but is still needs more, his relationship with Obi-Wan has grown as an apprentice. This is all an organic path from the end of TPM. ROTS does the same again with the way AOTC ends and his relationships with Obi-Wan and Padme.

    TPM & ANH - Anakin and Luke start the Jedi path.

    AOTC & TESB - Anakin and Luke as Jedi apprentices.

    ROTS & ROTJ - Jedi Knights - Anakin's fall to the Dark side and the Sith. Luke's ascension which then leads to Anakin's redemption.
     
  23. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2019
    Was Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship supposed to reach the same level as Luke and Han's? I never saw how that could be possible, considering that Obi-Wan was Anakin's former Jedi teacher.

    I never saw any development in Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship in "The Clone Wars" series. I've been watching it lately. Obi-Wan is no longer Anakin's Jedi teacher, but he is still the latter's military commander. And he is a member of the Jedi Council. This means, he still has authority over Anakin.

    Although both Luke and Han's character arcs change throughout the Original Trilogy, their relationship remains the same. The only real change in their relationship occurred in "A New Hope" when their relationship began as client and pilot and ended as close friends. Otherwise, no real change occurred in their relationship.
     
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  24. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    I would say that in TCW there isn't development as such. That is seen in the movies. As pointed out previously Lucas gave us the actual important development of Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship from TPM to AOTC to ROTS.

    What Lucas does in TCW does is give us some in-depth exploration of that already developed and realized relationship. What seems to be the point of contention for some is that they don't see or feel that Obi-Wan and Anakin do anything in AOTC but be at odds with each other with no resolution or friendship as they see it. Others see and feel that friendship being developed all the way through AOTC from it's seeds in TPM. Everything is there. The strands are threaded together by the end of AOTC and the lines from there to ROTS.

    From Lucas' storytelling POV he gave us the most important and meaningful growth and development of Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship. The next most important and meaningful was then set for ROTS.

    What he didn't give us in the movies was the relatively static state of their relationship that existed between AOTC and ROTS.

    I'll quote The_Phantom_Calamari again:

    "The point of watching characters in movies is to see their relationships with each other grow and develop, not remain static. And if their relationship does remain static, then a proportionally smaller amount of time should be spent on that relationship in favor of showing other important things. In Episodes II and III, we do happen to spend a large chunk of time on the Obi-Wan/Anakin relationship, and that's because their relationship in each movie is notably different."

    TCW has a lot of good material about their friendship. I understand that many would have like an entire movie with that but in terms of telling the important and developing story of their relationship there was no place for the static non-developing aspects of it in the movies.
     
  25. silentfault

    silentfault Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 5, 2021
    They both had the rank of General. He was not his military commander. And his position on the Jedi Council was irrelevant at that point in time. The whole point is that they were equals, brothers. You get to actually see that to the full extent.
     
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