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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Rewriting the Prequels...

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by swrescripted, Jan 23, 2013.

  1. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    Thank you.

    Maybe Obi-Wan forgot how Anakin blew up the TF ship?

    I agree with all of this. Another point about the lightsaber fight at the end of AOTC. The whole things is to show how Obi-Wan and Anakin DON'T work well together. Anakin flies off the handle again. Obi-Wan then has to fight Dooku ON HIS OWN because of Anakin's recklessness. The whole sequence is supposed to contrast with how well coordinated Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were against Maul.

    Maul had to actively split up Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon in TPM. In AOTC, the Jedi split themselves up because Anakin was being rash. Because the Jedi couldn't work together, Yoda has to save both of them.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2021
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  2. PCCViking

    PCCViking Chosen One star 10

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    Jun 12, 2014
    But by the beginning of ROTS, they were willing to go against Dooku together. It took the Count's effort to split them up that time.
     
  3. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    Yes, because the character development and relationship/friendship development happened off screen. Nothing changed from the beginning to the end of AOTC, then ROTS starts and things are just different because they need to be for the story to function. We're supposed to be invested in this friendship, but we skipped over the friendship starting.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2021
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  4. PCCViking

    PCCViking Chosen One star 10

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    Jun 12, 2014
    To be fair, though, they did have that little bit of banter on the lift/elevator to Padme's apartment. And even later, Obi-Wan tries to soothe Anakin's feelings when Anakin is talking about bad dreams.
     
  5. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    That's kind of the point. Does their relationship alter in AOTC? Their dynamic begins off screen between TPM and AOTC. So again, we don't see the shift. Then the two of them stay stagnant through AOTC and by the time ROTS starts, the dynamic has changed again. The audience never sees the changes. We're just told to accept that they became friends at some point.
     
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  6. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 10, 2011
    We don't see anything in The Clone Wars that we don't see in the first half of Episode III. We just see a larger quantity of it. People are confusing quantity with content.

    Their relationship doesn't stay stagnant in AOTC. I already explained this.

    (Perhaps he finally put me on Ignore? Good for him! Now that's what I call character development.)
     
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  7. Seagoat

    Seagoat Former Manager star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 25, 2013
    @The_Phantom_Calamari

    I'd highly recommend you heed my words, and you heed them well

    Enough with the passive-aggressive comments to other users, enough with the unnecessary biting sarcasm, and enough with driving the discussion from the films to the fans

    This is far from the first time you've been told about this, and I'd ask that you please put a stop to it, or expect a lengthy vacation from posting
     
  8. Visivious Drakarn

    Visivious Drakarn Jedi Master star 3

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    Apr 20, 2013
    Why?

    We are invested in Anakin's relationship with Obi-Wan for many reasons. Their mentorship in AOTC is interesting because we can clearly see that Obi-Wan is way more strict than his master in TPM was (hence, Qui-Gon was a great addition to the story) what caused their somewhat strained professional relationship. In ROTS, where Anakin is Jedi Knight, they were more than good friends, they looked after each other - Anakin saved him above Coruscant a couple of times and once strict mentor, now a Jedi master Obi-Wan even came to see Padme because he was worried about Anakin and would, I'm sure about that, help them with their kids.

    In ROTS Obi-Wan turned to be a better friend than he was a mentor in AOTC and that's yet another great story thread of the PT.

    The whole friendship is important motto was important to Abrams in the ST. We saw how those great friendships started, developed and how they ended hugging at the end of TROS, and yet they came nowhere near Anakin's and Obi-Wan's friendship - in AOTC. And, let's not forget, in AOTC, that one movie, Anakin dealed with Padme, Palpatine, his mother and the Jedi also.
     
  9. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    To me, the PT uses "off-screen" more than the OT does.
    Both when it comes to character growth/relations and also plot beats.

    Ex. the seps threat is never mentioned or set up in TPM. It comes up in AotC. Dooku, an important character, likewise is not set up in TPM.

    Griev is a plot important character than was never seen or mentioned in the other two films.

    ANH set up the Empire and Rebels and ESB and RotJ continues with them.
    ANH set up that Han owed Jabba money and ESB continues with that. The emperor is mentioned in ANH, seen briefly in ESB and then takes centerstage in RotJ.

    The clone war starts in AotC and then we see only the end of it in RotS. Most of it takes place off-screen.

    Anakin changes a lot as character off-screen.

    As for Luke and Anakin.
    In ANH/TPM: Luke has started to train as a Jedi, just one lesson, and then he is able to use the Force, with Obi-Wans help to blow up the DS. Anakin has no lessons but he can use the Force due to him being born super special.
    ESB/AotC: Anakin has now had ten years of training, more than ten times as much as Luke ever got. Luke has not really gotten any training between films. And with Luke we see his training as a Jedi, we see no training for Anakin.
    RotJ/RotS: Anakin is by now a graduated Jedi Knight, Luke is not. He calls himself that but he has one more thing to do. Confront Vader. Anakin has apparently passed the Jedi trials.

    So there are notable differences between Luke and Anakin when it comes to their Jedi status.
    And again, we see Luke's training in ESB, then he does some more off-screen. Anakin's training is totally off-screen. Luke's test to become a Jedi Knight is shown, Anakins happened off-screen.

    Bye.
    Old Stoneface
     
  10. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    Something that I don't get see brought up often, but always seemed odd to me. As important as the relationship between Palpatine and Anakin is to the overall saga, that happens off screen as well. A Jedi padawan and the politician in the highest seat of power have apparently been able to have a meaningful relationship for a decade (away from the prying eyes of everyone, including Anakin's master, Obi-Wan) and it's never even mentioned in AOTC. We're just supposed to accept that this weird friendship has been allowed to blossom without anyone even so much as raising an eyebrow about it.

    Obi-Wan mentions the friendship between Anakin and Palpatine one time in ROTS (after the fact) and the friendship isn't even mentioned by the Jedi council who choose to purposely put the two men together for long periods of time. To me, it's very contrived. I wish the scene between Anakin and Palpatine in AOTC would have been their first time being alone together and we could have seen the set up for what would later be a pay off in ROTS. Instead, we just get another, "This happened between films, just accept it" type of moment. Might I even suggest...

    INTERIOR: SENATE LODGING PLAZA-PALPATINE’S OFFICE-DAY

    The sun is beginning to rise. Anakin sits at the Chancellors desk as the elderly man comes up behind him with two cups of coffee. He places one cup in front of Anakin.

    PALPATINE: Here you are.

    Anakin is slightly startled. He begins to stand in respect.

    PALPATINE: Stay seated, young one. It’s just coffee. There’s no reason to get excited.

    (Palpatine immediately establishes that he wants Anakin to view the two of them as equals. "There's no reason to stand for me, I'm just a normal guy. Nothing to see here. Totally okay to drop your guard.")

    Anakin retakes his seat as Palpatine sits across from him.

    PALPATINE: And it’s black. If you want something special you’ll have to get it from my assistant when he arrives.

    (A humourour comment so Anakin can feel relaxed)

    A moment passes for them to enjoy their coffee.

    PALPATINE: So, there was a second attempt on Padme’s life?

    ANAKIN: Yes, Your Excellency. Master Kenobi and I chased her to the lower levels in the Warrick district; into The Lula, a night club. We caught her, but before we had a chance to question her she was shot and killed by a poisoned dart.

    PALPATINE: So there’s a second killer then?

    ANAKIN: Obi-Wan is looking into it as we speak.

    PALPATINE: So Master Kenobi is leading the investigation and you’re still providing security? Good. That’s what I would have suggested anyway. (establish that this part of Palpatine's plan didn't even need his meddling. A "freebie" so to speak) I think you’re ready to be on your own; I’m glad the council realizes it too. (stroking the young man's ego) So what course of action are you and I to take concerning Nelith? (suddenly, Anakin feels like the two of them are working together on this. A bond has suddenly formed)

    ANAKIN: You and I, sir?

    PALPATINE: I don’t want her on Coruscant. It’s clearly not safe here, even under your watchful eye. And I do not mean that as a condemnation.

    (Palpatine lays out his plan and again strokes Anakin's ego in order get the plan into motion)
    (also of note, in this version, the Jedi only decide to have Anakin keep protecting her on Coruscant, not have them go into hiding)

    ANAKIN: It would be very hard to pry her away, I think.

    PALPATINE: I agree. And even though I’m certain there is some by-law I could dig up as an excuse to delay the vote a little while longer; she won’t leave the capital of her own free will. But, I’ve been watching your career, Skywalker, (establish that Palpatine has been watching Anakin even though Anakin has been unaware) and if anyone is clever enough to get Padme Amidala away from Coruscant, it’s you. (again, stroking his ego while also getting Padme away from Coruscant)
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2021
  11. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    I'd disagree on the actual important character growth which is in the movies but certainly FAR more happens between the movie of TPM and particularly AOTC (Lucas would have fit 8 seasons of an animated series in there in total if it had all been made after all).

    As noted many times Lucas went out of his way to make the OT extremely simple. He made a point of not really getting into things or even attempting to give the full context of what was going on. The device he ended up settling on was that the OT was the second half of the story. He always had that kind of idea in mind but it wasn't until TESB that he truly set it down. The "prequel" trilogy beforehand was initially more distant backstory than directly relevant because of elements like Vader being Anakin and Emperor Palpatine being a Sith Lord weren't in play. Even the Clone Wars themselves were a crusade like series of campaigns not the concentrated event that it became.

    Actually that is incorrect. He does actually get a lesson from Qui-Gon. It makes the specific point that before Qui-Gon's influence that Anakin couldn't even finish a race nevermind win it. He can't actually use the Force as such. It manifests with his being a mechanic and pilot. He thinks his reflexes are actually that quick but of course they aren't.

    Luke clearly has been training between movies. Whether we want to believe it was completely self-training or what seems more likely that he's been having some conversations with Obi-Wan or the old stand-by of Obi-Wan's journal or whatever. We don't need to see training for Anakin because it's evident he's been having it. To say we don't see "training" is technically correct but of course we see teaching from Obi-Wan through their interactions and referencing to training he has done.

    That doesn't change the status of what they actually do in the movie's story. In ROTS Anakin is a Jedi Knight who fails his actual trial, the one that is really important and falls to the Dark side. Luke is a Jedi Knight in all but final confirmation through the movie and passes his actual trial. The one that is really important. There is no doubt that Luke would pass whatever the more commonplace skills based Jedi trials were that confirm that status. Obviously Obi-Wan didn't do the Jedi trials because defeating a Sith Lord was good enough for the council to make him a Jedi Knight.

    As mentioned before Lucas added in the Jedi Master rank as a way to work around the aspects of Anakin still being a "pupil" of sorts to Obi-Wan (he still calls him Master). It's something that isn't of the most importance of course but Lucas did place it in the movies. Hence Qui-Gon is a Jedi Master but not on the council while Obi-Wan is both a Master and on the council while Anakin covets being a Master and getting on the council.

    Which leads around to the earlier point. Obviously he had no contact with either Obi-Wan or Yoda yet obviously he is far stronger. His confrontation with Vader was more "training" than just about anything that any Jedi could ever have outside of similar encounters like Obi-Wan vs Maul, Obi-Wan and Anakin vs Dooku (twice in the movies) then the particular Anakin vs Dooku with Obi-Wan knocked out and Sidious present.

    What exactly what is "weird" about it? The specific point is made at the end of TPM that Palpatine will be watching Anakin. Early in AOTC Anakin's relationship with him is mentioned and then the council specifically sends Anakin to get him to order Padme to go with him to Naboo. The actual scene then tells us everything we need to know about what's been happening between movies and how he's been working his long con with his ego boosting.

    Palpatine's influence on Anakin's political views is also quite evident. He isn't into talking with Obi-Wan about them so who exactly of the few politicians he likes is he learning from? Lucas is a master at using dialogue for important support in a way that doesn't always seem important.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2021
  12. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2014
    I also have to agree that I think the PT would have been better if it had one villian other than Sidious who appeared in every movie
     
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  13. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 10, 2011
    Minor point, but going just by the films themselves, I get the impression that when Ben appears to Luke when he's on the verge of death, that's the first time Luke has communicated with him since the last movie. Or at the very least, it's the first really meaningful contact. I don't think Luke has just been having regular didactic conversations with Ben.

    I think Luke has just been growing and developing on his own using what little Ben already taught him in Episode IV. Maybe we can assume Ben told him about the telekinesis thing offscreen, or maybe it's just something Luke's gradually started to figure out on his own over the course of the the three or so years it's been. But he can only get so far by himself (which, as we can see from the wampa debacle, isn't very far at all), and that's why Ben finally decides the time is right for Luke to take leave of the Rebellion and seek out Yoda.

    And to connect it back to the main point being discussed, this is typical of the way Lucas approaches character progression. Luke has become a bit more mature and a bit more skillful since we saw him at the end of the last movie, but only in a way that's believable based on where we left off. But when it comes to major changes in his character that would seem inexplicable were they to happen offscreen, Lucas shows them happening. Luke can go from being an initiate in the Force to struggling to call a lightsaber to him telekinetically in the years-long period in between the movies, but he can't go from being an initiate in the Force to being a skilled Jedi intermediate. His teacher was killed off, so that wouldn't be plausible. The next movie has to be about him finding a teacher so he can get to that level.

    On the other hand, when we last see Anakin at the end of Episode I, he does have a teacher, and the logical expectation is that he will be trained. So, the next time we see him in Episode II, he's already been trained for the most part. The story of the movie is thus more about Anakin's struggle to move on to the next level and to manage his issues with attachment.

    And really, that's what Luke's story is about in Episode V as well. It isn't really about his training per se so much as it's about Luke's struggles with his own character flaws. This struggle takes place amidst a training backdrop because the logistics of the plot necessitated it. The only thing that would have been accomplished by showing more of Anakin's formal instruction with Obi-Wan would be redundancy, since Episode V already shows us what Jedi training consists of. Episode II is more of a buddy cop/detective mystery/tragic romance/political thriller. The lack of a need for a martial arts training plot frees Lucas up to explore other genres that we haven't seen yet in a Star Wars movie.
     
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  14. Moonshield76

    Moonshield76 Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Aug 21, 2020
    But how can this make films better? We have one villain other than Sidious, who appeared in 2 movies - Count Dooku, but there is nothing to do for him in the first movie.

    And if the villain appears in the movie and does nothing, it is an unused Chekhov's gun - a typical screenwriting flaw, like the phoenix in Mulan.

    In the OT we don't have any villains, who appears in all 3 movies. Tarkin dies in the 4th, the Emperor appears only in the 6th, the only side villain in the 5th is Boba Fett, who dies in the beginning of the 6th.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2021
  15. PCCViking

    PCCViking Chosen One star 10

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    Jun 12, 2014
    What about Darth Vader? ;)
     
  16. Moonshield76

    Moonshield76 Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Aug 21, 2020
    Except Darth Vader, who has redeemed himself, of course.
     
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  17. PCCViking

    PCCViking Chosen One star 10

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    Jun 12, 2014
    If you include the special edition scene between Han and Jabba in ANH, then Boba does appear in all 3 OT movies.
     
  18. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 10, 2011
    Some people wanted there to be a Darth Vader equivalent in the prequels, but doing so runs the risk of turning the story into a blood feud against that specific villain, something I think Lucas specifically wanted to avoid. The story is about the mysterious, ever-shifting threat of the Sith, with the focus on discovering the identity of the real mastermind behind it all.

    It's not about, like, Obi-Wan getting revenge on Darth Maul for killing his master, or Count Dooku's gradual fall to the dark side. I don't see how those things would fit neatly into the story Lucas was telling. There's only so much you can have going on at once in a movie, and stuff like that would take up a huge chunk of narrative real estate that's already in short supply.

    e: I think Lucas might have been a little inspired by the Connery-era Bond films. For the first four, Bond faces a different villain in each film, while the mysterious mastermind, Ernst Stavro Blofeld, lurks faceless in the shadows before finally being dramatically revealed in the fifth film.

    And I've noticed the way Dr. No is handled in the very first Bond film is very similar to the way Count Dooku is handled in Episode II. He is mentioned and hinted at repeatedly throughout the film, effectively building up his menace, but first appears only towards the end. And though he has comparatively little screen time, his character makes all the more impact for it.

    And note that Lucas does clearly reference Dr. No at least once in Episode II:

     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2021
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  19. Moonshield76

    Moonshield76 Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Aug 21, 2020
    Of course, but it is not a big deal)
    From the pure formal point of view, Nute Gunray and Rune Haako appeared in all 3 prequels, too, but actually only in the first, and, by the way, Nute Gunray in 2 or in 3 is more important than Boba Fett in 6.

    For me, that's fine - when I watched ROTJ in 1997-8, I liked Han Solo and wanted him to kill Boba Fett))
     
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  20. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    I agree with you that it is unlikely that Luke has talked to Obi-Wan a lot between ANH and ESB. Or that he has done a lot of training on his own.

    As for the redundancy argument. Yes, since the OT was made first, Lucas figured that he did not need to show Jedi training as that was already established.
    BUT it becomes an issue when we take into account his claim that SW is supposed to be seen PT - OT.
    Then the redundancy argument no longer works as one that starts with TPM has not seen any Jedi training.

    In AotC we have the Yoda/younglings scene. Since we have seen Luke in ANH doing that kind of training, we can figure out what is going on. But if someone has not seen ANH then what the kids are doing is a little harder to follow.

    @Qui-Riv-Brid,
    And I think that important character growth and plot development happened off-screen.
    And the big time gap between TPM and AotC is an issue.
    I've heard that very early on, Lucas considered the idea to have either a prologue in TPM or some flashbacks to show young Anakin but for the most part in the film he is about 18-20.
    But Lucas eventually decided to have young Anakin for the whole film but that meant pushing some events into the next film.
    AotC now had to do what TPM was supposed to do and we now had a new Anakin to introduce.
    And then more stuff was pushed to RotS.
    And I think this is noticeable. RotS feels overstuffed, a lot has to happen in just one film.

    What Lucas had in mind back then was very fluid. At one point ANH was supposed to be ep VI.
    Then we had the trilogy of trilogies. Even with ESB, he had not "set it down", he still planned to do a ST by this point. So any "always planned" is a huge stretch.

    Also, the OT is a "simple" story, sure. And the PT is trying to be more complex or complicated.
    But here is the thing, if your story is more complex and complicated then you need to spend more time explaining and setting things up.
    If you try to tell a more complicated story the same way you told a simple story, then it runs the risk of not being well told.

    How does the Force being strong with Anakin make him a better mechanic?
    His piloting I can but but is being strong with the Force giving you technical knowledge?

    And Luke gets a lesson in both theory and practice, don't trust his eyes. Later he don't trust the computer.
    The lesson and how it is used later fits.

    I think it does, Luke is not a Jedi at the start of the film but becomes one during the climax. Which combines both his trial and his desire to save his father.

    Anakin is a Jedi and has been for an unknown amount of time. He then falls because of his fear and not wanting to loose Padme. Dooku was a Jedi and then fell. So his fall was not connected with his trial either.
    Luke has to not fall as part of passing his trial. So his temptation is connected with his trial.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  21. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 10, 2011
    No. It is still redundant, because a viewer will later see it. If there was a training plot in AOTC, then the subsequent training plot in TESB would of course be rendered redundant by the former. This seems obvious to me, and was in fact specifically what I meant.

    How? We've seen Jedi deflect laser bolts at least a dozen times already. Now we see young Padawans being taught to do it. Do you think the average viewer is too unsophisticated to make the rather straightforward connection required here? Well, okay. I disagree.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2021
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  22. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    I think, had Obi-Wan been the protagonist in all three PT films, Lucas could have done different villains for each film. I also think this means he would have had to get rid of General Grievous entirely, though. Hear me out, this means Obi-Wan would have bested Maul in the first film. He would then lost to Dooku in the second film. And then won against Vader in the third film.

    I think Qui-Gon being the protagonist in TPM and Anakin being the protagonist in ROTS sort of throws off the serial nature that Lucas was going for with multiple villains in the PT.
     
  23. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    "Later see it", several films later. It is not like is is shown later in AotC.
    And if someone watches AotC and wonders what Jedi training is like, they get no answer.
    It would be like having Jedi and Sith and them showing powers but never once mentioning the Force and that being the source of their power.
    That explanation only comes in the third film.

    And no, showing some Jedi training in AotC and then different Jedi training in ESB will not make either redundant. Both is training but can show or emphasize different aspects of it.
    But my point was that Lucas made the PT, knowing the OT already existed and so did not think he needed to explain things that the OT had already established.
    Had the PT been made first, I think there would have been several things done differently.

    The point of the lesson given to Luke was not just about blocking bolts, he could do that using his eyes.
    But with his eyes blocked, he was forced to reach out with his feelings and use the Force.
    "Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them."
    This then comes back when Luke don't rely on the computer but rather himself and the Force.

    And again, because the scene existed, AotC gives a nod to it. You can figure out it is some sort of training but if you had not seen the ANH scene, much of the context is lost.

    Bye.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
  24. HolyKenobi93

    HolyKenobi93 Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2020
    Sorry for resurrecting this argument but my issue with the Obi Wan/Anakin relationship in AOTC (a film I otherwise like) is that I don't understand where this change in Anakin's attitude toward Obi Wan comes from. What happens to Anakin over the course of the movie that would cause him to reevaluate his relationship with his master? In addition, as others have pointed out, his ignoring Obi Wan's instructions in the fight with Dooku seems to go against this development, especially since they don't have any scenes together after the fight which might shed some light on how their relationship has changed.
     
  25. Obi Wan and Owen are brothers The Republic fights against Clones Anakin is a teen in Episode 1
    Qui Gon dont exist the Empire is good until Palpatine and Vader rise to power