ST Rey as Palpatine's granddaughter

Did it work for you or didn't it? I'm going to say no, for three reasons.

1. Say what you will about the Force running in families, but that idea was only presented in Return of the Jedi to justify Leia being Luke's sister, which was done only to make it easy for her to pick Han over Luke. Luke, being the main hero, you would have expected to get the girl as well. Prior to that point, the Force was created by "ALL living things," and it stood to reason that they could all access it. Those who didn't/couldn't either "didn't believe" (Han), or lacked "faith" (Motti). Having Rey be a character of no special lineage returned the Force to this idea, and was one of the few good ideas both Abrams and Johnson presented up until the third film. Making her Palpatine's granddaughter was just away of reinforcing that no, you have to come from a special family.

2. It's been done before. Luke found out Darth Vader was his father. Anakin finds out he had no natural father. We find out Han Solo is Kylo Ren's father, which is a surprise to apparently nobody in the world of the film. Plus that means there's already a character with a prominent grandfather from earlier in the series.

3. It doesn't change anything. Palpatine was a bad guy before we knew he was Rey's grandfather, and he's still a bad guy she has to confront and kill afterwards. For Luke, finding out who Vader was fundamentally altered his journey. Prior to that point, he wanted to avenge his father's death by killing Vader. Now that Vader is his father, that's not an option. That is why he had to redeem him. Rey isn't redeeming Palpatine, she's redeeming Kylo Ren, which she's wanted to do since the previous film.

 

The idea could have worked IMO. but it wasn't done very well.

 

1) Not sure what gave you that idea, but it isn't supported by the movies. There was never any indication that anyone could be a Jedi, not even a single line supported this idea. There is a difference between a powerful force-user coming out of nowhere, and everyone having the potential if they just were dedicated enough. Lineage being important is a line that goes through all three OT movies, starting with Luke being the son of a powerful Jedi in ANH, to Vader stating in ESB that Luke could destroy the Emperor, as the Emperor had foreseen it, to Obi Wan stating that Luke and Leia were hidden from Vader & the Emperor because of how much of a threat they have would been to Palpatine. If the force was something anyone could have used, then there wouldn't have been any need to wait for Luke, they could have just went with the next best person who was dedicated enough. There wouldn't have been any reason for Palpatine to fear Vader's offspring either, as they wouldn't have been any more of a threat than literally any other person. It's the lineage that mattered, even before Anakin was turned into the chosen one.

What did exist, was a dual possibility for the few extremely gifted people to appear. It could either come out of nowhere, or be passed on to offspring. This meant that any random person could have been lucky enough to be gifted this specific talent, it did not mean that everyone had the talent and it was just a matter of learning to use it. Just like sports-stars can appear in unexpected or random places, while it most definately isn't possible for everyone to match the best just because they desire to do so.

As for the question itself: I don't think it was necessary to make Rey a Palpatine. Like many ideas, it could have turned out well, but it probably would have needed a more coherent setup to work really well.

 

After TFA I had thought that if Rey had to be the descendant of someone we knew, Palpatine would probably be the most interesting.

When Rey was revealed to be "nobody" in TLJ I found that to be even more interesting.

When TRoS revealed that Palpatine himself was still alive, I just kind of tapped out.

 

I quoted the lines that support that idea. "It's an energy field created by ALL LIVING THINGS." "You don't BELIEVE in the Force, do you?" "I find your lack of FAITH disturbing." "You, my friend, are all that's left of their RELIGION."

All living things contribute to the Force. The language used to describe its users is the language of religion. Religions are not the exclusive domains of the progeny of former members, and tapping into it was not established as exclusive to certain bloodlines until we were told "She's your sister so stop messing around with her." Luke being Anakin/Vader's son is not enough to establish that he has an exclusive ability only because of his lineage. Given the egalitarian way Obi-Wan described it, it could simply be because Obi-Wan knows Luke wants to follow in his father's footsteps, having just now heard the semi-truth about who he was.

As I have argued that this idea of who can use the Force changed over the course of the three original films, it is not helpful to speak of them as if they are all internally consistent on this count. Just as the family connections of Luke, Leia, and Vader was added in subsequent films, so too was the idea that the Force ran in a family to the exclusion of non-blood relatives.

As for the question itself: I don't think it was necessary to make Rey a Palpatine. Like many ideas, it could have turned out well, but it probably would have needed a more coherent setup to work really well.

Thank you for at least partially addressing this.

 

I don't have the book in front of me, but the novelization of STAR WARS ghost written by Alan Dean Foster, has Luke ask (again I might be misremembering) if being a force user is genetic and Obi-Wan basically says that certain things can be passed down from parent to child like the innate ability to fly a ship so Obi-Wan hints at the abilities granted to you from genetic material could help a person be more attuned to the energy of the force.

Now, whether that idea came from Lucas or Foster, I don't know.

Also, I have the book somewhere at home. I can provide the exact text in a few hours.

 

No it didn't. If she was revealed as a nobody, she should have stayed a nobody. Then maybe it would have made the whole Rey Skywalker thing a little more palatable.

 

Yes, it worked. Unnatural methods kept Palpatine's spirit alive and through unnatural methods a descendant of him followed the light to destroy him. Ironic. Evil erases itself. Darkness rises and light to meet it. Also the message was nice: even though you might have criminal ancestors it doesn't mean you have to inherit this darkness.

 

Awushi: you're answering the wrong question. I didn't ask if it was plausible that Palpatine came back (prophecy problems notwithstanding).

I asked if making him Rey's granddaughter added a significant dimension to Rey's own story. Does it do anything for her that wasn't already done by Luke finding out Vader was his father? Does it change anything about her journey?

Fight of the Forgotten: the novelization of Return of the Jedi had Owen and Obi-Wan being brothers. The novelization of the first film also indicates that Palpatine is not a Sith (as they complain about him forcing bureaucrats to deal with Vader), and that there had been Empires before. It's certainly not a direct rebuttal to any of the film dialogue I have cited.

 

You mean if it changed something that she is not only a nobody but even a descendant of the most evil person in the galaxy? Well....interesting question. I would say it's like a “next level clarification“ of the TLJ-reveal which gives the dynamic of her family story another direction - a more dramatic one - and gives her a motive for reveng desires.

(1) TFA = “Where is my family? I soo wanna know.“

(2) TLJ = “No family left, no one to blame. Sad enough but...now the search seems over.“

(3) TROS = “Well....Palpatine is my grandfather and gave the order to kill my parents. WTF. I'm gonna end him.“

And that's the changer for me. TLJ basically cutted this arc to an end. TROS took on Rey's old, big arc and gave it some more emotional depth. Rey's original story became a point again. Even though for the story itself it wasn't that important (because it just explained Rey's affinity for the dark side and brought more grey to the discussion of a Skywalker as the saga's legitimated hero). So....ultimately it wasn't necessary but drove her character forwards. For the viewer moreover it was nice because now we have a shocking reveal even for chronological viewer.

So, all in all: I don't wanna miss this reveal.

 

One could say that Rey Palpatine, that possibility, compromised her 'heart' - her choice. Fear of herself became a part of her 'spiritual' landscape.

After killing Kylo, it was either Dark Rey or 'walking away from everything'. She says to Luke: I'm doing what you did.

Ben walked that path once, and was transformed into Dark Ben ,that is Kylo Ren.

The OT reference is not Bespin. It's Luke saying 'the force runs strong in my family' in ROTJ. That determinism didn't compromised Luke, since he went to Vader anyway, but it became a shadow to Leia and Han I think ('too much Vader in him') And that shadow was used to seduce a kid, Ben, and to shortcircuit his development.

By the time of TROS, he identified with it: 'the dark side is in our nature, surrender to it'. What TROS Rey experiences was experienced by Ben at some point. Rey 'killing' Chewie is 'too much Palpatine in her'. Maybe Ben 'killed' (or killed) someone too.

Rey Palpatine -the 'bloodline'- being true in the same sense Anakin>Leia>Ben is true, that's another thing. The source is Palpatine after all, and he had every reason to lie. And besides, Palpatine couldn't care less about family, unlike Vader. It's more cautious to talk about 'Rey Palpatine'.

 

3) TROS = “Well....Palpatine is my grandfather and gave the order to kill my parents. WTF. I'm gonna end him.“

This feeds into the "improper foundation" argument: no real clues were given that Palpatine had returned, but they needed a new big bad to justify Kylo's redemption, so guess who's back? Now, take the grandfather element out of your phrasing and what changes? IMHO nothing. If Palpatine had given the order but was still not her grandpa, her mission would still be the same. Compare that to Vader, where the same revelation suddenly meant Luke couldn't kill him.

One could say that Rey Palpatine, that possibility, compromised her 'heart' - her choice. Fear of herself became a part of her 'spiritual' landscape.

Yet she was already aware that blood doesn't run true (in the evil sense), since it was she who reminded Luke of how he saved his father. And if her birth parents weren't evil, then we already know that Palpatine's bloodline isn't inherently corrupt. And if she's gifted with the Force regardless of her ancestry, then she, like all Force users, is subject to temptation by the Dark Side.

For the viewer moreover it was nice because now we have a shocking reveal even for chronological viewer.

Regardless of what order we saw the previous films in, we are seeing these films chronologically for where they fit. And it's yet another surprise family connection, which has become as ubiquitous as an M. Night Shyamalan ending.

 

But Rey's biggest arc and emotion driver is HER FAMILY. So all this situation on Exegol made it more personal, weird, twisted and confusing for her. It just...works better. Of course the end boss of the saga could have been Bossk's brother - but is it the same?

EDIT: Oh, okay. You said it could've still been Palpatine without being her grandpa. Hm....Idk.....maybe. But I think drama is bigger now.

 

But Rey's biggest arc and emotion driver is HER FAMILY. So all this situation on Exegol made it more personal, weird, twisted and confusing for her. It just...works better. Of course the end boss of the saga could have been Bossk's brother - but is it the same?

Wanting to follow in your absent father's footsteps a la Luke makes for a good motivation. His struggles to control the Force and his own temptation make for good drama and character flaws to overcome. Rey not knowing who her parents are accomplishes none of that.

Is it really bigger drama when she's just doing what she would have done anyway? She's decided "it doesn't matter that he's my grandpa, I'm still going to kill him." Compared to Luke, who says "I was going to kill this man, but can't because he's my father." I mean that difference is why the title was changed to Return of the Jedi: Jedi don't seek revenge.

 

At least Rey was smart enough to not try to redeem Palpatine. There's zero good in that guy.

 

That's it for me. She wanted revenge and even when he offered her the thrown and the power to save her friends she could resist - after Ben's arrival. So I guess she wanted to go for it and I'm sure this twisted family-thing had influence on that. Maybe not being related her decisions would have been more cold.

All in all for me the drama and tragedy is bigger because they are connected by blood. Palpatine is everything she ever looked out for: the last family member.

Otherwise you could also say “Luke could have just heard that Vader has a random son and tried to bring the good in Vader back“. For me, personal connections make scenes more intense, even though descendancy is not even super necessary sometimes.

 

None of that in any way supports your theory. All living things are part of the force, that doesn't somehow mean that they can use it, just that everything that exists is connected to the force. Believing in the force also doesn't mean that you can use it, it just means that you believe it exists. Just like believing in god doesn't somehow mean that you have godlike powers. Nor does non-force users describing something they don't understand (because they don't have that specific ability themselves) as an religion (which is based on the Jedi-Order being an Order) somehow make it something that anyone can use. Star Wars also uses words like crusade or hell, doesn't mean that there were actual crusades, or that there is a hell.

Luke being Anakin's son, and Anakin being a Jedi confirms that this is at least in part hereditary. As did everything that followed. There is not a single line in any of the movies which hints at the force being something that you could learn do if you just trained hard enough. Again, if it was a thing, the Jedi wouldn't have to wait for someone like Luke, they could always try and grow a large numbers of new Jedi, yet they don't, because it doesn't work like this. No one can use the force except a selected few. That is how it has always been. It was that way in the early development, it was that way in the first movie, and it remained that way throughout every film that followed. If it had been a common thing, more people would have used it, more people would have believed in it, suppressing knowledge of the force wouldn't have been something that would ever have been attempted, as it would have been futile, and people wouldn't have been so incredulous about what it could do. ANH clearly shows an environment that is completely unfamiliar with the force and what you can do with it, beyond a random few people who had worked with Jedi before (hence the rebellion mentioning the force).

You can't just take something that is specifically mentioned and build upon over three movies and just throw it all out, all while turning around and stating that something that isn't supported by even a single line in any movies to be true. There was never any addition to make the force into hereditary thing when it wasn't before, nor was there any addition to make the use of the force a rare feat. It was that way right from the beginning. No one did ever suggest that the force was entirely hereditary and excluded non-blood relatives. That's just a strawman you are using here.

I have to disagree on this part. TLJ didn't cut the arc, it pushed it to a logical conclusion that helped Rey move on to a higher level. Before that she was all about her family returning, or looking for someone to lead the struggle against the First Order, or to guide her. TLJ then basically makes her realize that she can be the hero, she doesn't need someone else for that role, nor does she need to cling to a past that is long gone instead of creating her own future. In a way, it drover her character backwards. She wasn't "Rey, he hero" anymore, she was turned into "Rey, the outcome of an experiment by Palpatine". The very thing she had moved past was brought back. That isn't something that in itself couldn't have worked (I mean it works for enough people the way it is right now), but it probably would have made more sense if this part had been jerked around a bit less. Dropping the tiniest hints at Palpatine right from the get go would have helped with that.

 

You can't just take something that is specifically mentioned and build upon over three movies and just throw it all out, all while turning around and stating that something that isn't supported by even a single line in any movies to be true.

You miss my point then. The elite nature of the Force is NOT something built upon in all three original movies. It is stated in the third film, in contradiction of what is stated before. The Force is not even spoken of in genetic or scientific terms. Leia sensing where Luke was in ESB, was not an indication that they must be related. It was locked into the script, and her being the sister was not decided upon until the development of the following film.

A son following in his absent father's footsteps makes perfect sense without stating that he inherited some mutation that gave him a special ability. A bird in the hand is also worth two in the bush, meaning he has Luke close at hand so why search for other Jedi candidates, especially when there is no institutional support to be had (no Jedi Order), and the emotional investment Obi-Wan would have in the offspring of his former pupil. The Force/Jedi are always spoken of in religious terms. Now I want an answer to this, not a contrary question: is faith a genetic trait, or a result of upbringing? Anyone can join any religion in this world, and Judeo-Christian literature indicates that those with strong faith can be rewarded with special abilities, a la Moses. It's not that big a stretch to apply that to anyone else trained to use the Force.

 

works for me. helps that in my head Canon Anakin was created by Palpatine my single favourite deleted Lucas idea.. think it would explain eveything

 

I am not sure how I feel about this, to be honest. I mean, there were no hints or foreshadowing, which would have been nice. I think it could have been written better.

 

It’s a complete narrative misstep that further cements the ST as being a story telling disaster. That Rey ultimately calls herself a ‘Skywalker’, regardless of the fact that she knows her parents fought and died to protect her, reflects the lack of skill, craft and application in bringing ‘a’ story to the screen that’s worthy of telling.

 

I think its kinda interesting to have Rey, a random girl who ends up bring the grandaughter of the Emporer. they just didn't really do anything with the concept. the idea that this girl's birthright is perhaps to become the empress of the galaxy. i think could have worked. the concept of the last string of Palpatine was for his grandchild to continue the legacy he started in the PT.

 

I did not like the execution of Rey Palpatine, but I do think she needed to have some kind of epic lineage, because that is a central element of the saga and the main hero deserves it.

I don't like the idea of Palpatine having natural offspring, he seems too selfish and paranoid for that, but he created her through cloning or magic that could have been interesting. The juxtaposition of a Palpatine (Rey) being the hero and a Skywalker (Kylo) being the villain had potential. But it needed to be set up in EPVII, by the time TROS rolled around it was way too late to "soft reboot" a trilogy that was already a psuedo-reboot.

 

Palpatine’s son was a clone btw (Rey’s dad), and he was free willed enough to reject that lineage.