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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Rey & Kylo Ren in Episode IX

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Sforza, Dec 13, 2017.

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  1. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Nobody has minimized that, unless a refusal to deflect blame for Kylo’s behavior or accept a “but he made me! I was provoked!” third-grader-level defense from Kylo/Kylo defenders in his proxy is considered “minimizing”—in which case I am happy to “minimize” Luke’s actions, because as I said...

    Kylo committed mass murder. Luke did not. That’s it in a nutshell.

    And nobody, not Luke or anyone else, “made” Kylo behave the way he did, as much as Kylo might like us to think so.

    And if Rey does a “Ben! No!”, any hope for her being a decent character is dead.
     
  2. ForceGhostPrincessLeia

    ForceGhostPrincessLeia Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 22, 2018
    I'll give you credit for so transparently admitting Rey is nothing more than a prop for Kylo in your headcanon, but there is zero chance that Rey takes the name Skywalker to honor Kylo. It is such a disgusting idea that I doubt even RJ would've stooped that low. Lucky for all of us that there isn't a taun taun's chance on Mustafar that JJ would be that stupid.
     
  3. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

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    May 19, 2002
    I don’t think it’s likely either but it fits the Jack Dawson meme we have going in here so I’m just having fun with it now.
     
  4. ForceGhostPrincessLeia

    ForceGhostPrincessLeia Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Apr 22, 2018
    Interesting. I had recently come to the conclusion that you don't actually believe anything you say here and just like trolling, but I didn't expect to see you actually admit it.
     
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  5. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval Head Admin & TV Screaming Service star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Aug 19, 2003
    The name Skywalker has never been Kylo's name.

    I'll buy it if she changes her name to Rey Ben.

    And then puts on shades after she says it.

    And then the stinger from CSI Miami plays.
     
  6. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

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    May 19, 2002
    Having fun imagining strange outcomes is occuring all over the place on the site. It’s not reserved exclusively for those most dissatisfied. In fact the entire 50 Shades of Rey concept came from someone else entirely in the first place.

    We are so serious so often about Star Wars that it’s fun to let loose now and then.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
  7. ForceGhostPrincessLeia

    ForceGhostPrincessLeia Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Apr 22, 2018
    So now you're distancing yourself from all of your outrageous claims? Curiouser and curiouser. Do go on.
     
  8. Joystick Chevron

    Joystick Chevron Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 31, 2017
    Strange outcomes is an interesting way to phrase bad ideas.
     
  9. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 6

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    Nov 21, 2012
    Weird that Rey needs Kylo to help protect her from 6 dudes with baseball bats, who aren't even force users. Wow. Riveting stuff there. She's beaten Kylo twice already, with relative ease, but she now needs him because she can't defend herself against small potato baddies?

    That's lame as hell. It sounds contrived, and basically makes Rey nothing more than a prop in supposedly her own story, a damsel in distress, for Kylo to play white knight. Ugh, what another horrid trope that would reinforce. That's rotten story-telling for our first female protagonist.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
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  10. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

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    May 19, 2002
    The idea that they’d leave it vague enough that some Reylos could read into the name change as her honoring the good of his hero, his grandfather, would just be hilarious to me. As is the idea of them giving him pit training in a comic before possibly throwing him in a pit and then not showing him with the Skywalkers as a force ghost. When they leave things vague fans are going to fill in those blanks.
     
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  11. ForceGhostPrincessLeia

    ForceGhostPrincessLeia Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Apr 22, 2018
    There was nothing left vague about Rey not enjoying torture, so where does fascination with that idea come in?
     
  12. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

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    May 19, 2002
    I believe the idea started with someone asking how it was possible she held hands with him after torture and I began asking a series of possibilities with one of those being them. Ultimately, I changed that thought experiment approach and just asked people to choose a personal reason (stupidity, naïveté, etc) and ask themselves what it means to have a protagonist with that trait.

    More recently, with the development of the dark side growth they seem to be playing up in IX, I’m imagining it closer to a dark side awakening within her that started there and made her more interested in dark siders and particularly this one due to their family history with the force.

    The trilogy isn’t over so all we can do is speculate on how it will all play when IX is out and the entire trilogy becomes one whole and part of the saga. I’m trying to imagine how that will play but it’s still only speculative.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
  13. ForceGhostPrincessLeia

    ForceGhostPrincessLeia Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Apr 22, 2018
    That's not just speculating, that's ignoring what has happened in the films and making **** up that has no basis in canon.
     
  14. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

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    May 19, 2002
    Actually it’s looking at the most recent canon and seeing Rey and Poe give a cheers about being torture buddies and realizing that they’re going to mostly move past this as something that she can’t get out of her mind and revisits again less often than Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen for Luke once he left Tatooine in the OT. In the end it may be best remembered for her dark side awakening perhaps but they’re past it in the narrative already. Even if some of you aren’t.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
  15. ForceGhostPrincessLeia

    ForceGhostPrincessLeia Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Apr 22, 2018
    You're still making **** up. That scene in the comics is Rey and Poe bonding over a shared trauma, not LFL moving past the torture.
     
  16. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

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    Nov 20, 2012
    Why can't it be both?
     
  17. RiddleMeThis

    RiddleMeThis Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 7, 2017
    Um, he was asleep. Luke was going through his mind without his knowledge or permission. So I doubt he knew what Luke saw, and anyway I think your argument here is shaky at best if you're saying that someone's private thoughts justify them being killed in their sleep.

    Also, the other students were armed and had the force. At least I presume that since they were all there at Luke's temple for Jedi training. We don't know if Ben could have just easily incapacitated everyone by himself, especially if they wanted vengeance for him supposedly killing their master.

    Omitting the fact that Luke had his lightsaber out when he went to "confront" a sleeping Ben Solo is what I refer to as minimizing. It's an attempt to make it seem Luke was only standing there and nothing more, which is untrue. He was poring through Ben's mind without his consent and nearly struck down his nephew where he lay.

    I never said Luke committed mass murder, I'm saying we don't have all the information to know exactly what went down that night after he was rendered unconscious. Luke himself doesn't seem to know. He saw bodies, his temple burning, and his nephew gone. Of course that looks terrible, but again we don't know how the students reacted.

    Luke and Ben are both responsible for their choices. I believe Snoke was playing them both up until that point. He may have been subtly working from the shadows the entire time but his influence is still a factor.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
  18. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

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    Dec 23, 2015
    Because a pack of Jedi students seeking "vengeance" makes normal sense in the SW context. Jedi monks are passionate reactionaries.
     
  19. RiddleMeThis

    RiddleMeThis Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 7, 2017
    If that's what you think, fine. But in my opinion, Jedi students would probably react very strongly to their master apparently being murdered. Obi Wan was not exactly calm when he saw Qui Gon get fatally wounded by Maul.
     
  20. yodaman_reborn

    yodaman_reborn Jedi Master star 2

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    Feb 7, 2009
    You know this reminds of another discussion thread where the question of whether Anakin slaughtering the Tuskens was defensible. There were people who talked about how terrible the Tuskens were and how Anakin’s actions may act as a deterrent for future Tusken crimes. Having said that Lucas had no intention of making Anakin’s actions a good thing. While people may relate to his anger and need for vengeance, at the same time it was not portrayed as a heroic or justifiable act. Lucas wanted us to know what he did was wrong, even if we understood why he did it. Trying to spin it any differently lacks the understanding of what that scene is trying to show.

    With Kylo I can’t see how Rian Johnson has any intention of portraying Kylo killing the other students as a justifiable act as well. If he wanted to have that be shown he could have done so. There’s only so many excuses for the mass slaughtering of others. We are not meant to agree with Kylo’s actions any more than we are to agree with Anakin’s.

    Regarding Luke, I don’t think people minimize his actions regarding the attempted murder of his nephew. In fact one could argue the opposite. Many people find the act cowardly, treacherous, a POS move all the way. The idea that the guy who believes the good in the greatest villain would want to kill his sister and best friend’s son seems preposterous. That’s what makes many people hate TLJ Luke.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
  21. RiddleMeThis

    RiddleMeThis Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 7, 2017
    I hope you're not suggesting that I consider what Kylo did to be justified. I've actually never seen anyone say that. I know he turned into a villain that night, I'd simply like more information. We saw Anakin slaying the Tuskens as well as everything that led to it. Yet for some reason, the confrontation between Ben and the other students hasn't been shown at all. There must've been a divided reaction to Ben's side of the story, assuming they all thought their master was dead and he tried to explain why.

    Someone in this thread said Ben killed all the students because "Luke looked at him wrong once." That is why I called it minimizing. That's a direct example of what I mean, so yes, people do in fact try to minimize his role in what happened.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
  22. Diminished Comet

    Diminished Comet Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 27, 2017
    You'd think some of the students would at least try and pull Luke out of the rubble and check whether he was alive before going on a quest for revenge against Ben. It wasn't like there was a huge amount to dig through - it was just a small hut. Hopefully the comics will shed some light on what really happened.
     
  23. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    “His role in what happened” in no way can deflect blame from Kylo, or in any way justify the nonsense premise that Luke “created” Kylo.

    I have enough information not to assume any benign intent on Kylo’s part so I don’t need any further information, and what I see around here is a lot of assumption that Luke is to blame for Kylo’s behavior (even somewhat, by saying that Luke “had a role in what happened”), and a lot of desire to assume benign intent on Kylo’s part. I definitely don’t need a comic that tries to paint Kylo as a victim.

    Even if Kylo killed the other students in reaction to Luke, saying that Luke “had a role in what happened” looks like the use of “but I was provoked” as a justifiable excuse for murdering his classmates.

    It’s not the same as Anakin slaughtering the Tuskens, given that the Tusken men tortured his mother to death over a period of a month. I don’t think the new comic is going to reveal that Luke and the Jedi students strapped Leia to a pole inside a tent and slowly beat her to death.

    Anakin killing the Tuskens was wrong as hell regardless. The difference is, as has been said already, no movie narrative or ancillary material tries to pretend that it wasn’t or that Anakin wasn’t fully responsible. Even Anakin knew afterwards that he was fully responsible, and said as much. (Padme was dumb there, should have told him to turn himself in, but that’s another topic.)

    Kylo, on the other hand, has already tried to deflect blame off himself by showing Rey that exaggerated Luke-with-menacing-eyes scene from that night and pretend that it justified what he did, in a ‘I’m a monster but...’ or ‘Let me show you what *really* happened’ setup. And Rey was dumb enough to buy it and attack Luke for it.
     
  24. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

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    May 19, 2002
    In Resistance Reborn she’s most disappointed that he wouldn’t become what she thought.

    She’s past the torture scene. We are way past the events of TFA now in the present. TFA and it’s old materials are less relevant to the present than where these characters are at right now. The torture is unlikely to be revisited and treated the way you’d like. I’m not even sure they will imply it was the start of her dark side journey either. It’s been moved past like the murder of Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen which didn’t come back into play for drama on screen the rest of the way. It wasn’t treated as a source of rage for Luke later. He didn’t blame their deaths on Vader and his role in the Empire. The narrative had different needs moving forward and so does TROS.

    Even JJ seems to be admitting these days that TFA was just a slavish retread and him being beholden to what he’d seen in Star Wars before. Including the highly generic Rey. He’s
    now feeling freer to move past ANH and closer to Rian Johnson’s mindset. Which should bode well for IX.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2019
  25. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Nobody was or is shipping Luke with either Vader or the stormtroopers that killed Owen and Beru, nor has ever pretended that the stormtroopers setting the Lars homestead on fire was a precursor to romance. Nobody pretends that the stormtroopers were provoked or were just defending themselves either.

    I did preorder Resistance Reborn. Looks like I might be reviewing it similar to the way I reviewed Dark Disciple.
     
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