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Discussion Rey & Kylo Ren in Episode IX

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode IX - Spoilers Allowed' started by Sforza, Dec 13, 2017.

  1. Birkendoc

    Birkendoc Co-Purveyor of ST Trivia star 4 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2001
    Well we know that her parents are neither Han, Luke nor Leia.
     
  2. RiddleMeThis

    RiddleMeThis Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2017
    I wonder how the Kylux ship is doing, since Kylo has taken to throwing Hux around like a rag doll in film canon?

    Do we really need their names if they were no one important/recognizable?
     
  3. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    *Shrug* Ask TPTB - who know full-well who she is and how the ST’s ending - why they decided not to resolve it in TLJ.
     
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  4. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian New Films Thread Reaper and Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    Getting caught up. A couple of thoughts: Romeo/Juliet and Spike/Buffy are both absolutely toxic relationships. Definitely not good examples to justify a Reylo scenario.
     
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  5. RiddleMeThis

    RiddleMeThis Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2017
    I think what Rey has feared most is the actual truth, hence the fact she has lived in denial for so many years. Kylo only made her face it. He wasn't telling her anything she didn't already know deep down. Honestly I'm surprised TLJ went as far as it did when it came to explaining her parentage since it didn't feel necessary to me. She was abandoned and her parents are gone. It was already "resolved" in TFA for me.
     
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  6. Darkspellmaster

    Darkspellmaster Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 2015
    Same as Jedi Merkuian, just got caught up.

    Okay so I am in the Voltron fandom and right now there's a huge issue there in regard to what was a quasi-cannon pairing of Allura and Lotor. (For those who don't know, Allura is the daughter of the King of Altea and 'was' one of the last known living Alteans, while Lotor is the son of the Emperor who destroyed altea, with his wife who is Altean, and Lotor is half Galra and Half Altean, this is important.) Don't know if anyone here keeps up with the show, but I think this is important to the discussion.

    So in the show the writers decided to have Allura and Lotor fall in love (or in the case of Lotor it was fall in obsession or idealized version of her), and according to them he has real feelings for her. Problem...while for a good portion of the series he had been painted as an antagonist, he -for a short while- became Allies with Voltron. However his actions spoke differently, promising to free various groups under the Empire after the death of his father, and then back pedaling on it. Then, as of last season, it was revealed that he assisted in saving a number of Alteans. Prior to this the two had been engaing in what one could see as courting. Lotor pulling her into his life, by talking about her father and how he wished he could explore with him, and about how he wanted to learn more about the Alteans, etc. This leads up to a kiss prior to a large reveal, and one that has caused a large split among the fans.

    So what happens, another altean, Romelle, who was raised in a colony set up by Lotor comes back into the picture and informs them that Lotor has been using the colony to gain energy to go into a rift. These people follow him and worship him, and would do anything for him. Yet he lies, says they're going to another colony elsewhere and then puts them in a machine where they are being drained for their "magic". He, of course, tries to justify this as for the greater good, as the energy that he is using from these people are powering a machine that will take them into a rift where they can cross between multiverses, and also has enough energy to supply the empire that he wants to build.
    He says this is all for the Greater good. Allura winds up litterally flipping him over, knocking him out, and then shuts the door to their relationship when she calls him out on being a monster.

    This I think is kind of important to the issue of Rey and Ben, in the fact that Allura (and the other lead character Keith) both want to help Lotor out even if he's done harm after he's become stuck in between the rift. Rey, as a character, is a lot like Allura in that she's come off as a loner in some ways, building a family with people not directly (yet) related to her. Lotor, on the other hand, like Ben, is struggling with his own identity and believes his actions, you know the killing of hundreds of people to power up his own robot, was for the greater good for all the people in the galaxy. People are saying that he did nothing wrong, and this is the same issue with Ben. While Ben certainly didn't press the button to launch things, he never questioned things outright, making him as complicit as Vader was back when.

    It's hard to see why someone would stay in love with a person who was willing to kill others for a larger goal, and, in the case of Lotor, fail in that. Ben, at the same time had proven over and over, that he believes only in himself and while I would like him to be redeemed, I don't see him as being someone that Rey can fully trust. Like Allura and Lotor's confrontation, he offered her a chance to join him and she refused due to the fact that she could see that he wasn't going to change at the moment. He, like Lotor, can't see what he's doing is wrong and foolish. And, where as Vader wanted to change and had time to realize in between events of five and six that he was doing wrong and that he had become what he hated, Ben has yet to realize this in any way. He's desiring, like Lotor, to go above his family, to become someone that people will accept for what and who he is, and Ben, quiet frankly, can't even seem to figure out who or what he wants to be, much like Lotor so far in the series.

    Canonically it would be a dumb move to pair these two up as, honestly, they wouldn't be able to go anywhere in regard to story telling. Or at least good story telling and keep them both in character and grow them as a unit. Unlike say Han and Leia where his more rebellious cynical side changes over the course of the story, and her idealized view also changes some what, Ben and Rey haven't shown that. What is Rey going to teach Ben that he doesn't already know? She's broken as it is, so she'd need to fix herself first before she could help him. And the reverse is true of Ben, he doesn't know what he truly wants, so...how is he going to help her grow.

    I disagree. Neither movie seemed to come close to resolving it. If you take that view of the first movie being the end all be all, then Episode 5 resolved Luke's parentage, even though we know it didn't. Children who are adopted or abandoned all seem to have this same fear, that the parent that left them left them because they didn't want or need them. This is the fear that Rey has, and, if that underground area is a sith place, then of course it's going to show her the truth in the form of her greatest fear. Much like the cave did the same for Luke. He was terrified that he would become Vader, and Rey is scared of being abandoned. That she was worth nothing to no one. All Ben did was echo that fear back to her.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
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  7. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    Kathleen Kennedy was under the impression after TFA that it hadn’t been resolved yet.

    And now, after TLJ, RJ, MM, PH, and Daisy all act like it’s not resolved.

    So I’m guessing there’s some reason why 9 will be devoting valuable narrative real estate to finally resolving it.
     
  8. RiddleMeThis

    RiddleMeThis Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2017
    In all seriousness, Rey might end up returning to Jakku in IX for some reason and, while there, find her parents' grave. If what Kylo said about them is true however then they're not people worth grieving over.
     
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  9. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    @JoJoPenelli , regardless of how you think Rey sees Ben is your theory that Ben, after killing close relatives, cares more about his cousin because, well, she’s his cousin and that Snoke bridged his mind with hers because he knew that a couple young cousins are always at risk of becoming friends?

    Snoke went through all that after seeing him kill his own father because a cousin worried him?

    Don’t you think it’s possible Han’s death was specifically meant to show us that unlike Vader this was not going to come down to family ties and that only feelings of a different kind within a monster could cause a villain to change course?

    Again, they started with the story possibility of twins here via Legends. Everything they are exploring with bonds and being unable to kill the other would have been better explored by twins than cousins.

    The only advantage to moving them from a twin dynamic to cousins dynamic would be if it lead to a Luke vs Leia dramatic standoff complete with more parenting drama between Luke in a father role and Leia in a mother role. The ST with one movie to go opted not to go there.

    This leads me to believe they moved things from twins to unrelated to flirt with Reylo now, slightly into IX and possibly in Legends later. The one outsider in this saga on the side of the Light whose parents we never really met either but who developed a bond (and possibly even a force bond) with Anakin is Kenobi and the fact that both of them are together in the Force afterlife could also be what’s better connecting the grandchildren here (along with physical attraction).
     
  10. Birkendoc

    Birkendoc Co-Purveyor of ST Trivia star 4 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2001
    For the record, Spike/Buffy was the endgame of the series and continues to be a thing into the comics following the tv series.
     
  11. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    Maybe I'm remembering Buffy wrong, because I hated really the second half of the series, including all the Spike/Buffy stuff, thus I've only watched those episodes once. However, I don't remember them as endgame. I remember them being pitiful. Buffy pitied Spike in the end, and when she told him she loved him, I have a memory of him saying that he knew it was a pity/phony sentiment. Then he died. Never for a split second did I ever believe Buffy was in love with Spike. It's kind of hard to agree that they're endgame when their "relationship" was basically an after school special in unhealthy human interactions.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
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  12. Birkendoc

    Birkendoc Co-Purveyor of ST Trivia star 4 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2001
    Well they wind up together often in the Darkhorse comics following the series.
     
  13. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    Well okay, doesn't "endgame" mean at the end of the show? Comics go on forever. I've read like two Buffy comics and the Angel/Buffy/Spike triangle continued. In comics, there is no endgame couple. There's just never-ending stories.

    In the show, Spike wasn't portrayed as her soulmate. He was this pitiful guy that loved her after tormenting and raping her that she felt sorry for. Then it ended.

    Edit ~ sorry, he attempted to rape her, he didn't actually rape her.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
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  14. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Bad guy falling in love with a woman and deciding to fix himself due to feelings for that woman has been done in thousands of stories. That’s not exactly new.

    I’d like another Skywalker/Kenobi connection but not that way.
     
  15. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    You’re assuming that the only connection they has were that they were cousins. And that family members are fungible :p

    He sensed he had compassion for her? *shrug*

    No I think it was meant to show us that simple compassion wasn’t going to work this time. Kylo isn’t a monster who wants to destroy everything in his past simply because he’s lonely or feels unloved (although such feelings probably formed the basis for successful manipulation by Snoke).

    Again, I’m puzzled - surely you’ve seen powerful, intriguing relationships between characters onscreen who aren’t siblings or romantically involved? :p

    Cousins = son of the daughter and daughter of the son and creates thematic balance between the twins.

    Oh dear no. See above. Each twin loses their child in a horrible way - one is lost, believed dead, the other transformed into a monster. Every parent’s nightmare :(

    I think that’s a pretty big leap in logic tbh. “I can’t think of a good story where Rey and Kylo are cousins” isn’t evidence they’re unrelated.

    A lovely story had such been set up. I don’t believe it has.

    If it’s any comfort, if Rey ends up being a Skywalker, I’m sure the story behind all that and going forward will be excellent :) I’m also a strong believer in Kylo getting redeemed. I don’t think his fans will be given much to complain about in 9 unless they wanted Reylo and/or hoped Kylo would be the true central character of the ST. I very much anticipate finishing 9 loving Kylo; I think his redemption and reuniting with his family is thematically necessary.
     
  16. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian New Films Thread Reaper and Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    Yeah, I didn't follow the comics either. I know the comics are considered canon; I was going by the TV series. And that relationship was all kinds of toxic. And let's not get into the fact that Romeo and Juliet were teenagers who got a lot of people killed before saying "I can't even"
     
  17. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
  18. The Deuteragonist

    The Deuteragonist Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2018
    As a person who hates Romeo and Juliet and is Team Angel by default, I will say that Spike and Buffy were at least interesting as a couple (or whatever they were) partly because the show knew that the relationship was so damn toxic. At least from what I've seen since I've only seen up to Season 6 of Buffy. Sorry, I'm trash I know but Season 5 broke me and I haven't gone back since I heard it only gets more depressing from there.

    Also, Spike and Buffy are more complex characters then Rey and Kylo Ren. The writing was also a tad deeper than TLJ.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
  19. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    TV shows always have the edge on relationship drama or character development. Always.

    So, it’s kind of unfair to compare any movie or even trilogy to a multi-season TV show.

    Something like Breaking Bad, for example, never would work as a movie. You need to see that slow decline from normalcy to being a total gangster and losing everything.
     
  20. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    Agreed.

    And that is why the structure of the ST narrative thus far is antithetical tl the idea that they’ve set up an “enemies to lovers” scenario.
     
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  21. christophero30

    christophero30 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    Speaking of TV I would have loved to have seen the late great James Gandolfini in a SW movie.
     
  22. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    They don’t have the time to get there in the end. I agree. They’ll tease it more though, I think. And leave the door open for it into the future.
     
  23. Generational Fan

    Generational Fan Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 21, 2015
    I really wish RJ had included that deleted scene of Rey running down to confront the "raiders" at the villagers celebrations on Ahch-To; plus all of the scenes (as per the novel) of Luke dancing with Rey and then having a heated argument about him abandoning them in their desperate hour of need.

    I really wish he had added these scenes because it would have given the necessary context to Rey's emotional state and sense of vulnerability during the "finger touching" scene that followed. Because those deleted scenes would have shown just that - Rey in a moment of vulnerability where she is pretty much resigned to believe that turning Ben back to the light is her best hope for the Resistance to defeat The First Order......HENCE, Rey giving herself up to Kylo and The First Order and then with everything that is said and that unfolds in Snoke's throne room.

    The finger touching scene is just a moment of vulnerability for Rey because of what had just unfolded between her and Luke and him saying he won't return. That's all. NOT LOVE. Not her being attracted to him - nothing. No love emotions whatsoever. Kylo / Ben may fancy her, but that is not how Rey feels about him.

    Because nothing of her manner and her interactions with Kylo before and after that finger touching scene says that Rey fancies Kylo. This is so blindingly obvious.

    And the only other mistake that certain members of the storygroup, or actors and actresses, made was then to say publicly in interviews that this was as close to sex that Star Wars will ever get. That was tremendously stupid of them - because that was not how that scene was set up to be. If only they included those deleted scenes - because it would have given the necessary context for all of this REYLO rubbish.
     
  24. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    The closest to sex that Star Wars will ever get, at least on screen, is shirtless Anakin waking up next to pregnant Padme who is wearing a nightgown.

    The novels are another story; several of them have people actually having sex.
     
  25. TheEvilQueen

    TheEvilQueen Jedi Padawan

    Registered:
    Jan 22, 2018
    Speaking as someone who was a Buffy fanatic when the show was airing, teen me was very much a Buffy/Angel fan. I also had a hard time with the show in the later seasons because of how dark things got - pretty much ALL the characters were at their worst in season six. I will say, however, when I rewatched the show the later seasons resonated with me more and I was able to appreciate the storytelling more. I'm a fan of the whole show - and both dynamics - not because they're healthy (a vampire slayer with a vampire, I'm not expecting that), but because they were compelling and well written. And Buffy, Faith and Willow are some of the best female characters to come out of TV, IMHO.

    Rey and Kylo can't be compared, because as it's been stated, the writing for a seasons long television show can go much deeper.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018