ST Rey & Kylo Ren in Episode IX

Point of order, we have RJ stating that Rey's parentage was his decision, that implies that not EVERYTHING was decided from the beginning, and that whatever Rey's relationship to the previous trilogies characters was, it had no bearing on the path they were considering for Kylo Ren. Furthermore, RJ has gone on record repeatedly discussing just how much freedom he had with the Story of TLJ. This is backed up by Pablo stating that the reason for Kylo's fall pre TFA, had not been written before the script to TLJ was done, and the fact Mark Hamill became worried about the potential inconsistency in Luke's portrayal from TFA to TLJ since he apparently thought Luke would be lifting rocks and letting the power of the force flow through him at the end of TFA.

In short, they may have had a general direction (ex: The heroes win the villains lose) but each writer has been given a LOT of freedom in deciding each characters personal journey, and that's going to change a lot about how a particular characters arc or ending is viewed by the audience.

 

Ok, I probably expressed myself badly: when I said "whatever would happen to Kylo Ren", I actually thought of his potential redemption and his potential death. So a general direction, yes. It at least contredicts the often spread idea that NOTHING was decided.

 

As I said, some things were decided but a LOT has been left up to each director. Rey's parentage, The Reason for Kylo's fall, Luke's attitude and actions, Poe surviving the first movie etc. JB and DR both talked about their lack of knowledge about the ultimate direction of their characters after TFA dropped but some things were decided. The trilogy focusing on Rey's journey was an early decision, as was Kylo Ren becoming her antagonist.

 

Yes, but Driver (and I) talked specifically about his character's ending, and not about anything else.

 

It also reminds me of what Kathleen Kennedy said about Kylo in 2015/2016...

“I had the good fortune of working with Adam Driver on Lincoln. That was my first introduction. The minute we started to realize this character of Kylo Ren, it just seemed obvious to me that he was one of those rare actors that could embody that character. J.J. didn’t know him as well as I did, but the minute he met him, he instantly responded. He was one of the first people we identified, and quickly decided on.

One of the most interesting things about Kylo Ren is that he’s young. So often, villains in stories are damaged, troubled, older characters. To bring a character into Star Wars as a villain who’s only 30-years-old is interesting. It takes advantage of a troubled teenage life and a back-story that we don’t know much about. We recognize this tension between dark and light, which is prevalent in Star Wars. We can use it as a metaphor for the path from young adulthood to being an adult. Anybody is capable of having interest in the dark side, and that tension of being drawn into something that is somewhat dangerous is relatable. For audiences today, that’s a new and exciting and appealing character.

When we look at our own lives, it’s about the choices we make. This is a character that has made a lot of bad choices but not necessarily in the world of Star Wars, because that can go in any direction. This story is a mirror on the world. A lot of kids are experiencing a very troubled landscape politically and a lot of things are happening that suggest that people are being drawn in by danger, turmoil, and unrest. A lot of change seems to be going on politically in terms of world order. Star Wars has uniquely mirrored that in the political structure of the stories. Kylo Ren represents that dark side of society that we can be drawn to, not knowing whose side to be on and not having a clear-cut idea of what’s good or bad. All of those things make for a very complex character in Kylo Ren and gives us a lot of opportunity for where we can go with the character.”

And regarding my earlier comment that JJ won't change Kylo, here's what he said about him in 2015:
"An incredible power. An incredible Force and an incredible potential, that was like with many young people sort of misguided and unclear. The story for him is one of conflict -- not just external conflict, but internal conflict, and it's what makes him, I think, an interesting villain."

 

Finn and Rey have an excellent dynamic and I'm looking forward to more scenes with them together.

Kylo's conflict is far from over if the final shot of him kneeling with his head down means anything going forward.

 

I think that different people have different opinions on how much info they "need" to feel that they know enough. I mean, personally, I think that we've got enough that I don't feel we're missing essential info if this's all we get. I know others feel differently. Course, it depends on what Episode 9 does. For all I know, they'll pull out something so big an exciting that I would look back and present me and pity myself for having such an incomplete picture of things.

I suppose it's all a balance of how much should be told and how much shouldn't (or saved for tie-ins). Case in point, I could see it being possible to give Rey a satisfying ending even if we don't learn any more of her backstory (like framing it that she has learned enough to make peace with the past, a bit like where Wolverine was left in the second X-Men movie).

Maybe. I could see it going both ways, actually, or something in between (e.g. rough ideas but nothing set in stone). I mean, while there have been statements that there was an outline of some sort, Rian Johnson's report that he was given pretty free reign to tell the story he wanted to isn't nothing either.

I honestly don't think it was ever an idea during TFA (and I think that the reports of it in TLJ are exaggerated). Of course, things could've shifted as time went on.

Yeah, I do think it's a question if Finn and Rey were meant to be a romantic possibility in the first place though; the TFA novelizations certainly seem to be written as such (whether that was Alan Dean Foster's interpretation alone or he was given an "official" reason to write it that way) and there is circumstantial evidence in some of the TLJ tie-ins that it could that from on Finn's side. In practice, though, there hasn't been really any confirmation.

Either way, I do think that TFA was setting up Finn and Rey to be the primary character duo among the heroes. Whether that still remains the case post-TLJ or if that picks up again alongside the other characters they now have ties to remains to be seen.

 

Rey in Ep. IX: Sorry Finn. I just don’t think of you in that way. I’m more into the guy that killed his own dad.

 

Finn: That's cool, Rey. I'm more into Rose. People keep forgetting she exists for some reason.

 

Rey: Who? I don’t think I’ve met her. Is she from Canada?

 

No people have not forgotten about Rose, maybe RJ's attempt to ship Finn with Rose has not worked for some of the audience. Boyega & Tran don't have the chemistry that DR & JB had in TFA. Finn & Rose are a forced pairing just like the forced kiss Rose laid on Finn while the resistance was being blown to bits.

Do I think that JJ will abandon the Rose & Finn pairing to put Finn back with Rey? No way. However, will JJ have Rey abandon the Jedi Order to settle down and have Kylo babies? That remains to be seen.

 

I was responding to someone who had posted a scenario of Rey rejecting Finn romantically, which ignores Rose and implies he's still into Rey. I don't agree that Daisy and John had romantic chemistry. It's your opinion that they did. I don't think Finn and Rey are an equal match in that sense, with Rey being a powerful force user and Finn being an everyday guy. He would never be able to understand or relate to her when it comes to her abilities. And yeah, I know people haven't actually forgotten about Rose. That was me putting it mildly. The numerous hateful comments KMT received which ultimately drove her off social media kinda reveals the actual agenda some people have against the character.

 

I really like KMT, I think she is cute and charismatic and I am sorry she was harassed on social media. But, Finn & Rose have no chemistry romantic or friendly. Not the way Finn had with either Poe or Rey.

So, we are advocating for a caste system where force users only marry force users? Why would Leia be attracted to a muggle like Han? Well she should have married Luke.

That is exactly what is wrong with TLJ and it's rampant tokenism.

 

I'm not talking about all force users. Rey and Kylo have been specifically portrayed so far as two characters who feel alone because of their powers. They're only able to relate to each other on this, almost like two halves of a whole, to borrow the director's words. Not once has Rey confided in Finn about her abilities. She gave him vague non-answers whenever he questioned how she managed to do something that wouldn't ordinarily be possible (such as escape the interrogation room).

Leia wasn't an active force user although she had the ability. She and Han both had regular careers after getting married. They had strong assertive personalities. These qualities made them equals in most respects.

 

Finn and Rose have as much romantic chemistry at these two:

 

It's totally fine if you prefer other pairings but can you please talk about them in their own thread.

 

Kylo and Rey in TFA... I can't say that I thought while watching: "oh wow, these two will soon have a romance", that would be lying, but something told me that there would be at least a certain ambiguity between them; it ocurred to me when Kylo removes his helmet: contrary to ALL previous SW's villains, Kylo was good looking. No, in fact he was more than good looking, he was beautiful. I mean, he was made to look beautiful: his long flowing hair, his angel face, even his elegant scarf... I had seen Adam Driver in Paterson before, and I saw him after in other movies: he's got something, an undeniable charm in him, but in none of these films he strikes me as beautiful ; in TFA and TLJ, he does, and I think it's all wanted. I also think that Snoke was made particularly ugly to contrast with Kylo's beauty, to show that they were definitely different kinds of villains. Snoke is physically eaten by hatred, like Sidious was before him, while Kylo is not yet. Then I remarked that Kylo acted very differently with Rey than he had acted with Poe: he treats her as an enemy and not as a love interest, of course, but he's got this strange interest for her, doesn't have her beaten up by his Stormtroopers, watches her sleep etc... I was pretty sure that there was something going on there. But as I said, I didn't seriously think that Kylo and Rey woud eventually have a love affair; I only saw a potentially ambiguous relationship.

Then I watched TLJ and I must say I thought: "haha, I knew!". I then read that Abrams had compared Rey to a princess and Kylo to a "sort of Prince", which seemed a bit weird to me, but it confirmed that he wanted this ambiguity in their relationship. And these articles that pointed out the presence of "Beauty and the Beast" tropes in TFA, the beginning of John Williams' "Rey theme" that sounded very much like B&B too... I don't know, Rian Johnson probably pushed the "Reylo thing" much more far than what Abrams intended to do when he wrote TFA, but I'm not convinced that he found the entire idea alone. I think that like me, he felt this ambiguity, and just pushed it further in TLJ.

I don't really believe in Finn and Rose's relationship either, it looks like it's kind of forced indeed, but we should wait and see EP IX to see where their relationship goes, shouldn't we? In TLJ this kiss moment shows that only Rose is in love with Finn right now, he didn't expect it to come at all, but it's an acting job so maybe in Ep IX they'll appear as the best couple of the SW saga ever! I must say that when Rose kissed Finn though, I wondered when this came from. I sensed Rose's admiration for Finn when they met, but that's it.

I must say that when I watched TFA the firs time... erm no I won't talk about the firs time because Han's murder made me mad and I didn't give a **** about the rest, but the second time, I reùember that I didn't believe one second in a romance between Finn and Rey, just because TFA was such a ripp-off of ANH: it seemed obvious to me that Rey and Finn would be somehow like Luke and Leia, even if they would certainly not dare to play the brother-sister card again; I didn't feel any romantic chemistry between them, and don't see why there should be. Do we fall in love with someone because he/she's a good person? That's not how love works for me, and in SW it never worked like that either. I expected a similar love triangle to happen, probably not with Kylo in the "other guy"'s role because he was an antagonist (I had no idea that "Reylo" theories existed), but I thought that Rey and Poe would meet during Ep VIII and have a bickering relationship similar to Leia and Han's. Needless to say I thought of it as a very boring idea, but that's about what I expected to see.

I agree that RJ didn't develop Kylo and Rey's relationship enough to make it really convincing though. So, I see two options: 1) he just made a sloppy job, wanted to be subversive but didn't really care about being convincing; 2) he couldn't develop it more without revealing things that are kept for Ep IX. I keep the hope that it's option 2) because I'm a born optimistic

I'm glad RJ removed the "pretty eyes" part because it would have confirmed the idea that Rey fell for Kylo's pretty face and his pecs... I see this quote often used by anti-Reylos while it isn't even in the final cut... This quote would have reduced Rey to a silly teenager driven by her hormones. At least without this snark from Luke, we can still think that she wanted to touch his soul and not, erm, something else.... RJ should have kept Rose's "jealous girl" traits though; it would have been less surprising to see her kissing Finn.

 

For me the "pretty eyes" part says much more about Luke than Rey. It seems that Luke is afraid that Rey has been seduced to the dark side via Kylo and it's all about the fear that keeps him from wanting to train Rey in the first place: that she will fall just like Kylo. It's all in his head and I don't think he gets it until Rey's last couple lines before she leaves (her motivation is all out of the light side more or less). The line makes Luke look like more of an insensitive jerk to me (and kind of misogynistic given that Rey has been pretty earnest about how she wants LUKE to come back with her and help--Kylo is the last resort because Luke won't help), I suppose, and I'm glad it was removed for that reason.

I think it's also supposed to in general support how Kylo is "seductive," but I wonder if RJ viewed Kylo as more seductive than he comes off as. But apparently some critics viewed him that way as well.

 

"The sword fight with Rey and Kylo Ren. Fantastic visual storytelling." as Harrison called it was included in the ASC 100th anniversary reel; (@ :50)

 

also gives Luke some incest vibes as he's talking about his nephew and his nephew has the same eyes as his sister