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ST Rey Skywalker/Daisy Ridley Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Pro Scoundrel , Jan 3, 2020.

  1. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Feige's #1 Fan and Ryan Church Aficionado star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    Cultural relativity = a piss poor excuse for slavery. The slaver authority has no right to enslave, and thereby forfeits its right to sovereignty. The Republic, in this context, has a morally justified responsibility to intervene on behalf of the enslaved. I have spoken.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2020
  2. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    Isn't this all an opinion? Why dismiss mine, like I think this post is?
    Is it shown and said? Or left more open? I don't think it' stated directly.
    I think, to me, saying it doesn't exist doesn't have to translate to it not having jurisdiction like that. I think, to me, it can translate to a lack of enforcement there.
    That may be what the movie wants us to think. But it doesn't equal that being developed on screen. I think Luke's words were barely anything.

    Why resort to dismissing someone's opinion, like I think this is? I don't think you'd want me to do something similar with you. They barely have a relationship, as developed, on screen.

    I think Luke didn't do that so much, as relay Leia's feelings. I think, to me, that speaks more to her relationship with Leia and less with Luke. I think the name of Skywalker doesn't have personal meaning for Rey in that way, based on that, to me.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2020
  3. LedReader

    LedReader Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 24, 2019
    To me it's much less important whether Tatooine is or is not part of the Republic and more important that Qui-Gon made a genuine effort to try and free Shmi simply because she was slave, while Luke ran away to "the most unfindable place in the galaxy" so he could avoid dealing with the issue of the First Order, no matter what consequences that had for anyone else.
     
  4. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2019
    That's not how geopolitics works. If it was the world would be a much different - and more bloody - place. It's not a matter of cultural relativity or excuses, it's just the simple fact that countries don't get to tell other countries what to do within their own borders; a lot of countries are doing terrible things to their populace IRL right now, but nobody is going around invading them to make them change.

    If slavery forfights your right to sovereignty why did nobody ever invade the Empire of Brazil prior to emancipation or the United States during the first century of its existance to force them to free their slaves? Why did the Union initally allow the CSA to peacefully suceed and only went to war after they attacked them and forced the issue? Why did England and France, both nations firmly opposed to slavery by that, supply the latter with arms and equipment rather then help the former defeat it? When does the free world allow slavery to exist all across it today in all but name? Heck, why did neither the Republic or the Jedi go invade Hutt Space and set the slaves free?

    Different peaple, different circomstances. And I would'nt be to quick to praise Qui-Gon, since he only cared about Shmi becuase of Anakin and the only reason he made an effort to free Anakin was becuase he felt the force was telling him he needed to take him with him when they left.

    Both, see below.

    We have.
    Panaka's line saying Tatooine is controlled by the Hutts.
    Shmi's line saying the Republic does'nt exist on Tatooine, which nobody disputes (only Padme, a teenager, thinks Republic laws apply to Tatooine, nobody else supports her argument or disputes what Shmi says).
    Republic credits having zero worth on Tatooine; even if it's a remote Republic world the Republic's currancy system would still have value on it.
    Qui-Gon suggesting that the Hutts arbitrary his dispute with Watto, rather then the local magistrate that would exist if Tatooine were a republic world - and, heck, Qui-Gon never going to a local authority for assistence.
    The Republic not knowing about slaverly on Tatooine (or in Hutt Space), when the holonet allows for instantanious communication and Tatooine is a trade hub.
    TCW, which shows the Hutts as a seperate, independent authority from both the Republic and the CIS.
    Also TCW, which shows the Republic having to negotiate with the Hutts for acess to their space lanes (a thing they would'nt have to do if Hutt Space was part of the Republic, since, you know, they would already control that space) and sign treaties with them as co-equals.
    TCW agian, which has the Republic having to negotiate with King Katuunka for the ability to built a base on his world. Furthermore Katuunka himself flat-out says Toydaria (which is a part of Hutt territory)* is not part of the Republic.

    PADME: "I can't believe there's still slavery in the galaxy. The Republic's anti-slavery laws—"
    SHMI: "The Republic doesn't exist out here. We must survive on our own."

    WATTO: "Republic credits? Republic credits are no good out here, I need something more real."

    WINDU: "Hmm. I don't like it, dealing with that criminal scum. This is a dark day for the Republic."
    PALPATINE: "I agree, my friend, but what choice do we have? The Hutts control the Outer Rim, and we'll need their spacelanes in order to move our troops."

    PADME: "Perhaps now you will allow the Republic to use your trade routes, and hostilities can come to an end."
    JABBA: "Agreed. A treaty is in order."

    KATUUNKA: "Perhaps you failed to pay attention to the Senate orientation. They should have explained that Toydaria is a neutral system. We are not part of the Republic."*

    **from the databank - A neutral moon not far from Toydaria, Rugosa was the intended rendezvous point for Jedi Master Yoda and King Katuunko of the Toydarians during the Clone Wars. There, they were to negotiate a treaty that would transform Toydaria into a key Republic outpost in Hutt Space. Unfortunately, Separatist spies intercepted word of the meeting, and Confederacy warships ambushed Yoda's vessel en route to Rugosa. Yoda survived the attack, reaching Rugosa's surface, and cemented the alliance with the Toydarians.

    I'm not dissmissing your opinion, I just know were not going to agree on this so I decided to cut right to the chase.

    Whatever. Agree to disagree.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2020
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  5. LedReader

    LedReader Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 24, 2019
    Nothing about Luke's circumstances makes his actions ok, or even understandable the way one can understand why Anakin makes bad decisions in the PT. Also what makes you think Qui-Gon only cared about Shmi of Anakin, rather than just being a nice guy who cares about everyone he meets? It's not even like if he had freed Shmi that she would have lived with Anakin at the temple or anything.

    (Also for the record, I see no reason to assume there's such a thing as a "local magistrate" in the Republic and there isn't any indication of one on Naboo that the Trade Federation has to answer to.)
     
  6. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Considering that I find his actions perfectly understandable (I actually find them more understandable then Anakin's in ROTS, but that might just be due to the performances given relative to each other) and I'm not alone, I question the validity of that statement.

    The movie.

    Qui-Gon only made an effort to take Anakin becuase he felt it was the will of the Force, and he only tried to get Shmi becuase she was Anakin's mother. I'm not saying he's not a nice guy and he did'nt like them, but the film makes it pretty clear that if he did'nt sense that the Force wanted him to take Anakin/believe he was the chosen one he would'nt have made an effort to free him. That's the only reason he cared about taking him with him when they left.

    Call it a magistrate or whatever other word you want to use - my point is if it's a Republic member world there would be some sort of local repersenative authority that Qui-Gon could have gone to for assistence and protection - if not a full-blow magistrate/governers office then at the very least a small envoy station somewhere on the planet that would have a way of contacting Coruscant.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2020
  7. LedReader

    LedReader Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 24, 2019
    What is understandable about running away and refusing to help the galaxy in it's moment of need, even when your own sister begs you to, because you thought about doing something bad for one second one time? Keep in mind this is the same guy who ran into a trap against his masters' pleading because said sister was in danger, and completely lost his cool on the Death Star because Vader vaguely threatened her. This is on top of finding out Han had been killed in his absence.
    That's the part I'm not seeing. He didn't have to try and free Shmi if all he cared about was the prophecy, since she wasn't involved in that, yet he still made an effort to do so just because she matters as a person.
    I don't think that's how the Republic operates. It has a very weak federal government and the individual planets seem to have most of the power. That's why it's not equipped to handle the crisis on Naboo very well. The Chancellor is sympathetic to their plight but he simply doesn't have that much power in reality. Even dispatching the Jedi is implied to be somewhat overstepping his bounds and done without senate approval. Now in response to this the Republic decides to start consolidating federal power and votes in a strong man to lead them, but the tradeoff in individual planets rights has its own consequences as we see. Indeed, by the time of the full blown Empire there are full blown regional governors in place and everyone does answer to Coruscant directly.

    Side note: it occurred to me while I was in the shower that the whole point of the Clone Wars is everybody was on the same side at the time of TPM. So I would like to update my position to say I think the Hutts were (nominally, at least) part of the Republic when Padme visited, and then when the Republic split in 2 they said "that's your guys' problem, we're not taking either side", with both of them trying to convince them to change their mind, until through treaties and the war ending they became part of the new Empire. So basically I'm saying being part of the Republic during TPM and not being part of the Republic during the Clone Wars are not mutually exclusive.
     
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  8. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2019
    We don't know that Leia begged him not to run away, and when he left the galaxy was'nt in it's moment of need. That being said, the movie acknowledges that him being in hiding is wrong and he himself eventually relizes he makes a mistake, ultimatly leaving exile when asked despite his inital reluctance.

    To clarify I don't think it's understandable becuase I think he did a good thing, I think it's understandable becuase he made a Human mistake for what I personally found to be a belivable reason - given what the movie tells me I find his exile, his depression and his reluctence to help both understandable and belivable, that's what I'm saying.

    It's been over two decades. Peaple change. Luke became less hot-tempered and more cynical, and unlike those instances he specificly thinks he'll only be doing more harm then good - to Luke when he went into exile trying to help Leia or anyone else would only make matters worse, becuase he (and the Jedi) were the problem to begin with, and by the time Rey arrives he's had almost a decade to soldify that view.

    Though I will note him nearly killing Vader becuase of a vague, weak threat he had no way of carrying through with is part of the reason I don't find it unbelivable that he'd briefly consider killing Ben.

    The way the movie presents it would'nt have tried to free her at all if he had'nt been trying to free Anakin, which he was only doing becuase he felt the force wanted him to. That's the point I'm making.

    Being a weak federal goverment does'nt mean said goverment would'nt have repersenatives on it's member worlds. Not only that but it also does'nt mean that their currency system would be worthless and would'nt mean Tatooine/the Hutts would be able to get away with slavery, since there's no way the Republic does'nt know they have slaves - so it seems to me that either they know and they don't care or they know and they do care but can't do anything about it becuase they have no authority over Hutt Space.

    If the Hutts were a member of the Republic who had just declared neutrality (I.E like what Kentucky tried to do in the civil war) then that would have been brought up becuase it would have played a role in the plot of the Clone Wars film. Instead in both that movie and the show itself the Hutts are treated as a sovereign, neutral power who are explicitly stated (in Supply Lines) to NOT be part of the Republic.

    There is a lot of evidence - including two statements, one direct and one indirect - that state that Hutt Space is independent of the Republic. I'm not really sure why your arguing that it "must" be at this point in spite of all that.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2020
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  9. LedReader

    LedReader Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 24, 2019
    Leia sent a messenger to beg him to come back because the situation was dire and he still said no. That's what I'm saying.
    I understand that believable is subjective, but I don't understand how believing you made a mistake one time for one second before you caught yourself leads to letting the galaxy burn partially as a consequence of that mistake without trying to do anything to fix it.
    I think for most people the ability to buy ST Luke depends on how much you think a character can change in a couple of decades offscreen. To me I don't see him as being less hot tempered but rather less caring about others around him, even his closest friends, because their suffering doesn't drive him to action. That's a development I simply cannot buy no matter how much time's passed, especially if that time wasn't on screen. I will say unlike some others I can buy him igniting the lightsaber over Ben to some degree, I just think he would be less likely to do that than Rey on the Supremecy, hence our past conversations where I've said if it makes sense for him then it would make sense for her too.
    I don't think he would have taken the risks necessary to free them if he didn't think Anakin was a sign from the Force, but when he did he still made an effort to get Shmi included in the deal and I don't think that was the Force's request, I think that was just his own compassion.
     
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  10. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2019
    I'm sorry for misunderstanding your position. My bad.

    He said no at first, but ultimatly relized he was being foolish and answered the call.

    He believed that if he tried to fix it (and remember, he believes at the time that this is a problem he cuased in the first place becuase he thought he knew better) he would only make matters worse; Luke had lost faith in both the Jedi and his own abilities, and belived that further interference would only make matters worse, not better.

    Exactly - it's a matter of personal statisfaction with the story TLJ told, not a flaw on TLJ's part were the movie did something "wrong" with Luke.

    I think the question is whether or not that compassion was aimed more at Shmi or more at Anakin; considering I don't see any reason why he would try to take her if he was'nt already taking Anakin, and made no more then a token effort to free her, I suspect it's the latter.

    Getting back to my original point, Qui-Gon would'nt have tried to free either if the Force had'nt indicated (or he felt it indicated) that he needed to take Anakin with him becuase he was the chosen one and would have otherwise just left them enslaved becuase the Jedi have no authority over the affairs of Hutt Space - does that make him a bad person? I don't think it does, no more then I don't think Luke going off after Ben fell to wage a one-man war agianst the FO (who was at the time at peace with the Republic and not engaged in hostilities) makes him a bad person or me not getting on a plane to fly to Sri Lanka to help stop the victimization of the Tamils makes me a bad person.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2020
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  11. LedReader

    LedReader Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 24, 2019
    [face_peace] I'm sorry I messed up the quote block because I even made an effort to double check but I was in a hurry and apparently I glanced over it too quickly.
    But my point is he can't claim ignorance of the First Order's actions as an excuse for all those years because even when he was told about them it still didn't change his mind.
    He believes he created Kylo but he isn't responsible for the entire existence of the First Order in the first place. The galaxy is being overrun by Dark Side powered Space Fascists and the defenders are on the brink of collapse. How is he possibly going to make the situation worse? The situation is already a total disaster. So while I agree that that is what the movie is trying to say, I don't think it actually makes sense.
    I think the movie took a big gamble with its handling of Luke, and for many that gamble came up short. So I can see why people would feel like it was irresponsible to gamble with such a valuable asset in the first place, or at the very least that they should have increased their odds of success by putting more emphasis on the redemption part of his arc. If you're going to put Luke in to loser mode then you have to make sure you successfully manage to take him back out. Now the thing about gambling is that for the people it did work for they might enjoy it even more than they would have with a "safer" story. So I do think they knew they were going down a divisive road with their choices and decided to do it anyways. Whether that's a "bad" choice in and of itself is up for debate.
    Why can't it be both? There's no limit on compassion, just because he has compassion for Anakin doesn't mean he has less compassion left over for Shmi. I think he only made a "token" effort to free Shmi because he was dirt poor and had nothing to offer Watto that was worth giving up two slaves, so if he wanted to free Anakin he simply couldn't also free Shmi. He still gave it a shot, but when Watto basically laughed at his offer he knew it would be a waste of time to try and barter further.
    The difference is you're not a super powered monk sworn to maintaining peace and justice in the galaxy, or so I assume. As a famous uncle once said, with great power comes great responsibility. Qui-Gon has a bit of an excuse in TPM because he's busy trying to put out a different fire at the time, and then he dies. I believe it is supposed to reflect poorly on the Jedi order as a whole though, that they're sitting in their ivory tower patting themselves on the back for defeating the Sith a thousand years ago while people out there are still suffering and being oppressed. That same idea comes up again in The Clone Wars when Ahsoka visits Kessel:

    Note how the Republic turns a blind eye here as well, despite Rafa being sure they wouldn't allow such a thing.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2020
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  12. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Your good.

    He did change his mind though. He did'nt do it immedatly, but he ultimatly did.

    When Luke left the bolded was not true - it was only true by the time Rey showed up, by which he had had six years worth of stewing in his depression and misplaced beliefs for that state to take hold. I think a lot of peaple take that for granted - both the effect of the passage of time and the effect depression and dispair can have on a person, especially when they allow themselves to become consumed by it; Luke was not in a healthy state of mind when he left for exile, to say nothing of by the time Rey got to him.

    Sometimes I wonder if the peaple who think Luke in TLJ is'nt realistic have ever gotten angry and almost done something catastrophically bad or let deep depression take over - I've been in the former place and seen peaple in the latter, and let me tell you he did'nt seem all that unrealistic to me.

    Good.

    I respect Johnson far more for taking that risk - especially when he had to know he'd ruffle some peaples feathers - then playing it safe. He's an artist, he should be bold and pursue his vision even if it makes some peaple mad.

    And those peaple who feel that way should remember they don't own the character, and have no more claim to what's "responsable" way to use him then the rest of us - Johnson's vision and ideas for Luke are no more, and no less, valid then anyone elses.

    We have thirty-so-odd years of the Luke that peaple wish TLJ had shown in the EU. I think reality can handle a different take on the character with fracturing, and I personally think it's refreshing they tried something new rather then just re-did the same thing over agian.

    And while you think they did'nt, I think they did. To each their own.

    He had a lightsaber, did'nt he? Why not just wait until Anakin was free after the race then go to Watto's junk shop, put a blade to his throat and force him to turn of the head bomb thing that keeps the slaves in line? Heck, if Tatooine is a Republic planet why did'nt the Jedi come back afterwards and free her along with every other slave?

    That's not what I think he should have done, mind you, just me following the argument that he had a moral imparative to intervene.

    No really. No more then it reflects poorly on the NYPD that their not off invading Suadi Arabia or something.

    Rafa's a poor, lower-class woman who never left her homeworld prior to that and, over the course of the episodes she is'nt shown to really the brightest bulb around. In all likelyhood Kessel, like Tatooine, is not a part of the Republic, and she either (like Padme in TPM) is simply unaware of the fact or just assumes that the Republic would step in irregardless (though I'll admit that it's also possible, given that the slaves on Kessel were tucked away out of sight rather then part of public society like the slaves on Tatooine, that if it is a Republic world their just doing it under the table - or the could be prisoners being used as slaves in all but name)
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2020
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  13. LedReader

    LedReader Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 24, 2019
    The problem I have is if he's really in such a deep despair that Rey showing up and saying "the galaxy is crumbling, Han's dead and Leia needs your help" doesn't have any affect on him, how is it that Yoda showing up and bopping him with a Force-ghost cane instantly snaps him out of it? I also find it kind of strange that the hologram of Leia asking for help prompts him to change his mind about teaching Rey about some Force stuff, but doesn't change his mind about actually going back and helping Leia.
    I understand where you're coming from but I have a hard time getting on board with the idea that there's no such thing as a bad gamble in a movie, especially when it's not your story and not only is there decades of prior work to consider, but the other two movies in the same trilogy as well. I know you probably won't agree but like many people I think some of the choices in TLJ set TROS up for failure from a narrative perspective regardless of some of JJ's questionable decisions of his own.
    Most of the movie going audience has never read the EU though. So while this Luke might be fresh and different to you, for a lot people any version of Luke post-ROTJ is going to be fresh and new. Also, books just aren't the same as being portrayed on screen by Mark Hamill. In all likelihood that was a once in forever opportunity, and I can't blame people for being upset that that's how they decided to use it. (For the record while I don't like whiny loser Luke and think it's criminal that they didn't let him at least train one successful Jedi, Luke isn't as important to me as he is to some people so I just sigh and roll my eyes while others get legitimately mad.)
    Yes but I think there are a number of ways they could have gotten their message to successfully reach more people, number one being Luke not dying.
    Ironically the Jedi I can think of who would be on board with threatening to murder someone in cold blood to get what they want would be...Anakin lol. And I think the whole point is that the Jedi should have made a concentrated effort to free the slaves on Tatooine if they were true to their ideals, but that would be a lot of work and they had other things they'd rather spend their time and energy on so they just never got around to it, the way I don't always get around to the things on my to-do list that I'd rather not do[face_whistling].
    Except in this example I don't think the Jedi are the relative equivalent of the NYPD, and it does reflect poorly on the US that we look the other way on the Saudi's rights violations because it serves our own interests. To me I see it more like the UN being being unable to enforce anything against China or Russia(or the US tbf), not even a strongly worded letter, becuase they have too much power with in the organization itself to tick them off even if they deserve it.
    But Ahsoka would know that and she doesn't say so. It's very heavily implied that the inexperienced Martez sisters believe the Republic's public stance that slavery will not be tolerated, but Ahsoka who does have experience with the dark underbelly of the galaxy knows otherwise. They also say that "an operation of this size" would be detected and shut down, which implies someone like Watto with just 2 slaves could theoretically pass under the radar. "Under the radar" in this case doesn't mean that nobody knows about it, it means that nobody who cares enough to do anything about it knows about it. The implication is that Kessel's existence signifies that "people in power in the Republic who care enough to do something about it" is a lot lower number than the average citizen would hope to assume from their government.
     
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  14. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Becuase he was slowly building up to that point the entire movie - as shown by the fact that he quickly came around to training Rey despite ordering her to leave and was shown to not even really want to burn the books. It's not like Yoda just showed up and pulled a leaver that made Luke snap out of it; Luke was already doubting whether or not he was doing the right thing and Yoda showed up at just the right time to say and do just the right thing.

    It was his story; it was as much his as it was Abrams's, Lucas's, Kasdan's, Filoni's and any other writer or filmaker whose ever been in charge of a Star Wars film, show, book or game, and it became his story the moment Disney/LFL hired him to write a film and did'nt place any restrictions upon him - what exactly are you suggesting, that he go present his finished script to GL for his blessing before he started shooting?

    And when Johnson made TLJ there was only one movie in the trilogy to consider, and he did the best he could consider that the "set up" given by that film was a bunch of question marks and empty mystery boxes.

    Your right, I don't agree. I don't subscribe to that kind of defense, not with my eight-year old neice when she tries to blame other kids for her own bad behavior and not when peaple try to blame Johnson for decisions made by Abrams, a fifty-so-odd year-old man, that he had no control over and which were made several years after the fact.

    And I'm sorry they did'nt enjoy the character, but that's not going to stop me from liking him.

    To me it is.

    But then agian I grew up with the EU and it was always "my" Star Wars over the films.

    That's a fair point, but I don't really care about how they could have reached more peaple - hypothetically why should I wish a storyline I enjoyed to be ruined just to appease random peaple online I don't know and I'm never going to meet?

    There are peaple who love ATOC and plenty of peaple who think its garbage, and while I think that if the film was made differently (IMO better;)) it could have reached more peaple, I'm not going to wish it was made differently just so I can like it more at the expense of the peaple who did enjoy it.

    Even if the US did'nt need Saudi oil and was'nt on freindly terms with them we would'nt go invade them just to stop Human rights violations.

    Tatooine is'nt just Watto with his two slaves - slavery is widespread in Hutt Space and nobody bothers to hide it, to the point were the guy who rules that region has a freaking harem of captive women. I doubt it would escape the Republic attention.

    Or it implies that either Kessel is'nt a member of the Republic or what's going on their is'nt actually slavery as defined under Republic law (it's possible for Kessel to be Republic world and the slaves in mines to just be prisoners whose captors are abusing them for forced labor)
     
  15. LedReader

    LedReader Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 24, 2019
    His story was only 1/9 of the overall story and 1/3 of the sequel trilogy's story is what I'm saying. I think he just did whatever he wanted without thinking about the consequences for the bigger picture, and I think the same could be said for JJ, and thus it's clear to me that TPTB allowed or even encouraged this behavior, and I think that's the biggest reason for the ST's problems as I see them.
    It's not an excuse, it's reality. If the second movie in a trilogy doesn't affect what happens in the third movie than something has gone wrong. That doesn't mean JJ didn't have any of his own decisions left to make and can't be criticized for what he did with those, but he wasn't starting from a blank slate. He had to play within the lines drawn by the first two movies. So for example RJ decided to kill off Luke and Snoke. JJ can't just ignore that when writing TROS regardless of whether he'd like to use those characters in his story or not. He can make up something silly to try and get around that, but he would definitely be angering a portion of the audience if he did so.
    For whatever it's worth I enjoy ATOC overall, but I definitely think it could have been tinkered with to improve the low points without losing what I consider the high points.

    For everything else I think I've already said what I wanted to say insofar as it relates to Rey, the topic of this thread, so I'm good with agreeing to disagree and moving on.
     
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  16. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2019
    That's fair, I will just say this though.

    JJ could have just said "Hey man, BTW don't kill of Luke. I'd think I might like to use him later."

    That's why the whole attempt to blame Johnson for TROS's faults - and the claim that he "did whatever he wanted" with no regard for the consqences of his creative decisions - Abrams knew what he wrote, was in contact with him while he was writing and was an executive producer on the film while it was being made. These films were designed with the intention that the writers/directors for each work with each other to compliment their works and build of each others ideas, and the idea that Abrams had no influance over TLJ is a myth (the only person who had no influance was Johnson in regards to TROS, but that's not Abrams's fault it's just a quirk cuased by that film's production process).
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2020
  17. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    JJ wasn't signed to do TROS until later. I don't think he was planning on doing another SW film.
     
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  18. LedReader

    LedReader Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 24, 2019
    Serious question because I've never been one to pay attention to the behind the scenes stuff, did JJ know he was doing Episode IX at the time these decisions were being made? In any case I'm not so sure JJ is the type of person who has such a clear idea of what he's doing from the beginning that he would be willing to meddle in RJ's movie to set his vision up, but that's another matter.
     
  19. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2019
    He was'nt. Which just kinda further proves my point about how Johnson killing Luke off actually was'nt an issue were he was inconvincing someone - the person writing the next movie at the time TLJ was being made was Trevarrow, and if he had wanted to use a living Luke in DTOF he could have just asked Johnson not to kill him; we have no reason to think he would'nt have obligied.

    See above.

    The point is if someone - Trevarrow in fact or a hypothetical Abrams - had wanted Luke to survive TLJ all they needed to do was ask. Johnson can't be blamed for making a creative decision he had no reason to think he could'nt make; if peaple made films based on the assumption that their decisions might hypothetically inconvience someone down the line then nothing would ever get done.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2020
  20. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    But you're just assuming this. Which is fine but you act like you were there.
     
  21. LedReader

    LedReader Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 24, 2019
    :eek:
    I don't see how real Abrams can be blamed for things hypothetical Abrams didn't do, or things Trevorrow didn't do. RJ knew for a fact that there was another movie that had to follow up on his, and just because no one made him think about where the story was going beyond his movie doesn't mean that he shouldn't be taking the overall story into consideration. As Palpatine himself would say, the ST paid the price for it's lack of vision from the beginning. As far as I'm concerned the ST had already accidently twisted itself into such a knot after the first two movies that even if I myself had been hired to write Episode IX with no other concerns than my own satisfaction, I don't think it could be done. So while I absolutely agree that plenty of dodgy scenes in TROS are JJ's own fault, I don't think "fixing" those issues would result in a good movie anyways.
     
  22. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Assuming what? That Abrams was in communication with Johnson and Johnson with Trevarrow and that Abrams was the executive producer of TLJ? I'm not assuming either of those things.

    He was taking it into consideration - he was in communication with Trevarrow while he was making TLJ and the latter was writing DTOF, and he had no way of knowing that Fisher would tragicly die and that movie would end up not being made.
     
  23. vaderito

    vaderito Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Coladdin Trevorrow rubs a magic lamp. Pops out Rian Genieson.

    Genieson: Coladdin, you have one wish. Choose wisely.

    Coladdin [thinking]: Hmmm, should I ask Genieson to spare Luke...

    Coladdin: OK, I've decided. I wish [whispers the wish in Genieson's ear]

    Genieson: It is done!

    [​IMG]

    Fans

    [​IMG]
     
  24. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    JJ's only request was that there be lots of Porgs.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2020
  25. LedReader

    LedReader Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 24, 2019
    Well I laughed I'll give you that much