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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Rian Johnson (Director Of TLJ) Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Pro Scoundrel , Jan 3, 2020.

  1. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    With Josh Whedon in the long run they were trimming down a 4 hour movie to 2 hours. Fisher was heavily in the 4 hour cut of the movie, but alot of it was side development. So trimming down 2 hours likely resulted in his scenes being taken out. but people see it as racism because fisher wasn't happy about that and because he is black. but i think its just an unfortunate consequence of trimming down a 4 hour movie to 2 hours.

    Zach Snider isn't exactly a guy who structures his movies to work fast paced. and they were not remaking the movie, they were just filling in gaps for pacing in basically the same plot, just sped up.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2022
  2. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Dec 14, 2010
    The evidence would be the films, Johnson's own comments, and LFL's clear prejudice against Finn and for Ben Solo.

    It's deduction.
    There *is* actually a clear difference... though its not necessarily flattering to either party.

    Whedon clearly has a tendency towards more toxic relationships with his actual cast when he senses a vulnerability, so his personal conduct with regards to Fisher and others is worse than Johnson, who always seems to have a professional and personable style as a director. At the same time, Fisher was also screwed over by problematic aspects of Cyborg's earlier "promotion" to the Justice League in a more immediately cynical and always limited "obligatory but only obligatory diversity" move; Cyborg had the role because Geoff Johns wanted the credit for diversity but didn't want to have John Stewart take the Green Lantern spot in the comics, and chose to fulfil that role with a less famous and more ancillary character. Cyborg was thus always the more expendable character in the line-up, and was someone that higher ups like Johns (again) would accept having his role cut down. Fisher's first appearance in the role was also in the chaotically produced Justice League, so he didn't get another chance to prove himself.

    Whedon worsened an already bad situation with needlessly toxic behavior.

    Johnson always conducts himself better in person and professionally, and it should be noted for this comparison that no one has criticized his personal conduct here. BUT! on the other hand, Boyega had already proven himself an immensely successful male lead and the role of Finn a popular and well-developed deuteragonist who well-complemented both Rey the main hero and Kylo the main villain. Therefore, the demotion and denigration of Finn as a character afterwards to remove a rival to Kylo and Adam Driver is inexcusable; the choice to use retcons, contemptuous interpretations, and at times intentionally deflating story-telling to poison the role of Finn instead of actually providing Adam Driver with worthy material to try and surpass Boyega that way was at best an unforced error and more likely an action of hostile writing. It also had a clear negative affect on the overall story, creating a problem where there wasn't one before and denying the story a strength it previously had.

    Johnson *created* a bad situation, but only through hostile writing, rather than his behavior.

    I'd also add that both guys have shown good skills as writers and directors; the difference there is that Whedon's bad behavior has finally caught up to him, while Johnson has moved onto a self-created franchise that better shows his skills than Star Wars.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2022
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  3. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 7, 2016
    So conspiracy mode then.
     
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  4. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    “Everyone can relate to Kylo Ren” is an actual quote made by Johnson, so his having a bias towards Kylo is not conspiracy, it is demonstrable fact.
     
  5. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 6

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    Nov 21, 2012
    KK is also quoted as saying Kylo would be the most relatable character of the ST
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2022
  6. dogprivilege

    dogprivilege Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 19, 2015
    RJ's obvious interest in Kylo over Finn is obvious and not exactly an evergreen point, but "RJ intentionally wrote Finn so that his scenes would be bad, because he didn't want anyone liking Finn's character/Boyega's performance" feels conspiratorial and silly to me. It also undermines and obfuscates the substantive arguments to be made about TLJ's writing and approach to Finn more specifically....

    I mean, look at how all the characters and the story were treated in TLJ, they all took the flattest and worst interpretations you could make of them from TFA. RJ's approach to writing was simply shallow across the board
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2022
  7. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Johnson is also quoted as saying he did want to write a compelling story for Finn, so I definitely think there was an apathy to Finn specifically despite the fact that Johnson did not put thought into anyone’s story other than Kylo’s, and when he did, the thought was around ‘How can this character serve Kylo?’
     
  8. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Dec 14, 2010
    The things that make me think there was more effort specifically made to undermine Finn’s role in the story, beyond the shallow nature of TLJ that infected all the characters, were these:

    - The film going out of its way to keep Rey and Finn from speaking to each other at all, even after being reunited,
    - The entire creation of Rose and her role as a minor character love interest for Finn emerges from nowhere and seemingly just to cut off Finn as a potential romance interest for Rey and to pull him away from having that much significance,
    - And the weird, hypocritical and straining leaps in logic at the very beginning to try and say that Finn cared “too much” about Rey in comparison to the Resistance and the Galaxy (which is an outright retcon.)

    Those are some specific story choices that required a bit more effort than simply being so shallow as to think Poe is a hot shot stereotype, Kylo’s just a sad little boy because Driver has a great pout, or that Rey is just kind of there to be a tool for the storytelling; Johnson showed an apathy towards details and observation with everyone else, but there’s energy and decision-making going beyond simple apathy with Finn, a bit like how there is with Luke - the difference being Johnson wanted Luke front and center, while on some level wanting to establish a priority system that weakened Finn.

    Now, I would say that it’s not that hard for me to see some or even many among Johnson and LFL only subconsciously wanting to sabotage Finn and Boyega as an asset… but it strains me a bit to see all of them being completely subconscious to it. The number of TLJ fans who are in denial about Finn getting demoted or being written out of character shows me that it’s not that hard to trick people into ignoring something obvious with the fictional story and particular characters. But I have too high of an opinion of the analytical skills of Johnson and LFL to think all of them could miss the obvious.
     
  9. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 7, 2016
    There was never a promise of romance for Finn and Rey. And this idea that Finn was a full loyal to the team rebel wasn't really either. TFA did not stamp a direction the sequel needed to go. TFA left it fully speculative and optional when going in to tell the next story in the trilogy. It seems more of each to their own disappointment as to where they didn't go.

    It would be like if people watched Episode 4 and said Lucas undermined Luke because he put Leia and Han together when it was so obviously in episode 4 it was meant to be Luke getting with the princess. But Lucas didn't promise where episode 5 was gonna go. Let alone set anything in stone.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2022
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  10. chris hayes

    chris hayes Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 13, 2012
    What would TLJ look like or be called cause it wouldn't be that title if RJ decided to have any other career besides Directing films cause TLJ is not the EP8 we were looking for.
     
  11. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 6

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    Nov 21, 2012
    That's something I've never thought about. I believe RJ said he came up with that title early one, as in, it was pretty much the only title he ever wanted for the movie.

    I wonder what JJ's or anyone else's EP 8 title would have been. Not that they thought about EP8 when they were filming 7.
     
  12. Fredrik Vallestrand

    Fredrik Vallestrand Force Ghost star 7

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    Jan 15, 2018
    Probaly something with Jedi title. As it would be the movie with Luke in it as focus, like Han in TFA.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2022
  13. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 6

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    Nov 21, 2012
    Well.. by that logic The Force Awakens refers to Han then.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2022
  14. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 7, 2016
    Not really. Star Wars titles have always varied. The phantom menace isn't Qui-Gon, Anakin or Obi Wan.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2022
  15. Fredrik Vallestrand

    Fredrik Vallestrand Force Ghost star 7

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    Jan 15, 2018
    Qui gon isnt the Phantom Menace so not really.
     
  16. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    There were at the time and still are people who think that Lucas undermined Luke by putting Leia with Han. I understand where they are coming from although I like Han and Leia together.

    That said, putting Rey with Kylo instead of Finn would be more like putting Leia with Tarkin if he had survived ANH, not putting Leia with Han.

    There is not an apples-to-apples Rey/Kylo equivalent that happened in either of the previous trilogies.
     
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  17. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Dec 14, 2010
    I actually think that “The Last Jedi” is a good title, even if it doesn’t fit the pattern of the other movies, and is simply an evocative thing to call any particular story in Star Wars.

    I also think that, had the film been about Luke training Rey through and through, or even done that but also given Rey a story where her possible fall to the dark side against Kylo is front and center, putting the Jedi in further jeopardy, it’s a great title.

    But as it is, it’s a better title than the movie we got, because Johnson’s idea of a heroic Force user is very un-Jedi-like.

    This is an inaccurate comparison because Lucas never forgot who his main characters were, and didn’t overcompensate in trying to demote anyone through retcons, and you’re missing some of my actual points.

    Finn *was*, flat-out, motivated by the larger picture and just as much a member of the Resistance as Han was of the Rebellion, and Lucas did it green light any nonsense arguing Han was too friendly with Luke and Leia and selfish towards the rest of the Galaxy, because that’s a nonsense way to take the story. If anything, TFA shows a Finn who’s more motivated by the bigger picture than Han… and TLJ pretty blatantly wants to retcon that, but only so long as it can use that to try and paint his relationship with Rey in a bad light.

    And I’m not arguing that TFA was clearly setting up a romance between Rey and Finn; I’m arguing that TLJ was obviously so against *any* relationship between them that it not only introduced a “shipping beard” in Rose to cut off romantic possibilities, but even sought to downplay and silence a purely platonic relationship between them.

    Abrams and Kasdan were always clear about what they’re goals were with Finn vis-a-vie Rey; he was a complementary co-star with her, so much so that Abrams reshot parts of the film to increase the characters’s chemistry and further emphasize how well they complemented each other. Johnson would blow a lot of hot air about Rey and Luke being the heart of the story, but it was clearly shown on screen to be about Kylo and Luke, with Rey being largely subordinated to Kyl, and his references to Finn always show apathy, while LFL always shows denial about what they let him do and carried on with afterwards.

    TLJ is a clearly a movie for people who were insecure about TFA’s strengths, and who don’ mind retcons to try and change that or gaslighting people who actually paid attention to both films.
     
  18. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 7, 2016
    Lucas was fairly open to shifting goal posts when he wanted. The issue here is more the expectation that they shouldnt shift goal posts.

    And there was no plan here to insist there was a directoin set.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2022
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  19. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    An expectation that they should not shift goalposts is not an “issue.” Especially given the horrible regressive direction in which the goalposts were shifted.
     
  20. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Dec 14, 2010
    Yeah, if you’re shifting goal posts in a positive way, that pays off: Lucas shifted the goal posts for ROTJ to further emphasize the character-driven, Luke-focused, and operatic stuff that ESB had already started. If you’re shifting goal posts and relabeling the “equipment” in a negative way, that's going to hurt your product; Johnson retconned and erased elements of TFA he didn’t like, but chose mostly toxic or deflating ideas in place of them.

    It’s not about “direction” as much as it’s about just evaluating what you have. Finn, his relationship with Rey, and her hatred of Kylo with Kylo’s antagonism of them both were all good, useful assets; you can put your “goal posts” anywhere based off those facts and still do well in most cases.

    If, on the other hand, you kick Finn away and treat him as a liability, deflate Rey as an asset to the point of being a non-entity and tool, and reduce Kylo to a 2-dimensional caricature, you’ve already made a serious mistake, and you really shouldn’t compound your issue by, say, making your 2-dimensional Kylo your main asset… which is what TLJ did.

    TLJ moved the goalposts, but only in a way that hurt the new game it wanted to play with its mislabeled and wasted gamepieces.

    It’s like taking a game that was football, with a working pigskin, pads, and kicking tee, and then replacing the football with a paper-cut out of the helmet, throwing away the kicking tee and not letting anyone do a drop kick either, and still moving the goal posts further away - it’s an excercise in futility unless you’re making a comedy,
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2022
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  21. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 7, 2016
    He retconned it about as much as Lucas himself retconned his likely original idea of Leia and Luke getting together. He shifted goal posts so characters were moved to different places. It wasn't trying to be episode 4 again. Because if it had, it would just be another Han,Leia and luke adventure with Vader just being doing the same thing he did in episode 4. In which case we wouldn't have got the film we got.

    Yeah some thinks Kylo would obsess over Finn because he was the stormtrooper that got away. its very much opinionated really. But is say there is no right answer. just opinions.

    Going back to episode 4 to 5. you could easily have Vader want revenge for the death star and set out to find Han, Leia and Luke because they are the main characters. How easy of a direction is that? Simple! Nice and set up! Im sure kids speculated that would be the case back in 1977. But Lucas went above and beyond that.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2022
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  22. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    As I said, which you are deliberately ignoring for some reason:

    There is no apples to apples comparison between the ST and the other trilogies.

    A similar goalpost shifting between ANH and ESB would involve Tarkin not actually dying on the Death Star, reuniting with Leia, and her falling in love with him.

    A similar goalpost shifting between ESB and ROTJ would involve Leia rejecting Han and falling in love with Jabba the Hutt.

    Accepting the goalpost shifting between TFA and TLJ involves a much more benign view of Kylo and a much more hostile view of Finn than several of us who liked TFA have.
     
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  23. Fredrik Vallestrand

    Fredrik Vallestrand Force Ghost star 7

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    Jan 15, 2018
    You may not like Kylo Ren but he is not as vile as both Tarkin and Jabba. It would more if you did Darth Vader or another dark lord who questions himself. And he was not blowing up planets.
     
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  24. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    You just proved my point. Accepting the goalpost shifting requires a much more benign view of Kylo and a much more hostile view of Finn than many of us who liked TFA have. In this case, it requires viewing Kylo as someone who “questions himself” as well as being willing to minimize his evil behavior.

    I did not see Vader as someone who “questioned himself” until the end of ROTJ nor did I care until he overthrew Palpatine. I am certainly not giving some allowance to Kylo just because I am told that I should or I must.

    He was as vile as Tarkin and Jabba. No amount of sad emo faces changes that.
     
  25. Fredrik Vallestrand

    Fredrik Vallestrand Force Ghost star 7

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    Jan 15, 2018
    Tarkin and Jabba would eat Kylo Ren for breakfest really. Canon has shown us Darth vader questions himself all the way.

    I dont see what you see in regards to both Kylo and Finn, I like his character but also Kylo, i enjoyed TFA.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2022
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