main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Rian Johnson (Director Of TLJ) Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Pro Scoundrel , Jan 3, 2020.

  1. Fredrik Vallestrand

    Fredrik Vallestrand Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 15, 2018
    Yeah i hoped they showed that in film and hope we get that in film one day with new apprentice.
     
  2. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I never bought the “manipulated in the womb,” given that it’s based on a couple of lines in Empire’s End in which a pregnant Leia describes fetus Ben doing what fetuses do—moving around.

    That last sentence cracked me up though. [face_laugh]
     
  3. vaderito

    vaderito Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    I get a lot of Rian criticism but I don't understand criticism that he put the spotlight on the Skywalkers (Kylo and Luke). That's just incomprehensible to me. ST is the continuation of the Skywalker family saga. These are official DLF words. Therefore, putting the spotlight on the family members as opposed to generic non-Skywalkers is the right creative decision. Whether the execution was up to the snuff is a different matter, but putting them in the center of the story is absolutely the right thing.

    IMO, his fault was that Skywalkers didn't get enough screen time. Yes, they got the central role but that side of the story, the one that mattered, had to share screen time with the filler. And there was too much filler, starting with the slow chase/kiddie tantrum mutiny that hogged way too much screen time even though it was secondary to the main story (Rey/Kylo/Luke/Snoke). I get that Leia (another Skywalker) was part of that filler but she didn't have as big a role as a newcomer Holdo who was specifically created for this storyline. So faulty execution with the right idea (Skywalkers at the front).
     
  4. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    Its not about being an obsessed maniac. if someone decided to come along and kill his family. possibly intensionally to push him over the edge. his instant reaction would be probably a human one. anger and sadness. his desire probably would be revenge purely to cope with the loss. and in his despair he probably would stop caring about anything but revenge, he wouldn't care how to get it or where it would lead. it would become an obsession.

    I think thats the idea behind the attachment rule. the Jedi learn how to control their emotions, but loss is perhaps one of the strongest negative emotions someone can have. jealousy is another.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2020
    Fredrik Vallestrand likes this.
  5. vaderito

    vaderito Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    In OT, Luke had nothing to do with Anakin's fall. So he didn't feel guilt and his actions didn't come from that place.

    In ST, Luke's nephew-apprentice-surrogate son fell on his watch and any master (see PT) would feel responsible and try to undo the damage. So what Luke did when he was contemplating to kill Ben wasn't different from how the surviving Jedi Obi Wan dealt with Anakin...except that Luke pulled himself out of that funk. Not fast enough for Ben to miss the moment but he did go "no this is wrong, there's gotta be another way". Unfortunately, by that time, ST was so deeply in old formula we couldn't see "the other way". It had to be a repeat of what came before only much more condensed and therefore with a lot of gaps. Unlike PT that had 3 movies time to show the fall and its aftermath and all decisions that was made from that.
     
  6. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    It sounds like Ben was already showing dark side tendencies when they sent him to Luke. So it's not like Luke allowed some innocent young kid to fall to the dark side. It's just not enough reason for Luke to completely give up and allow his sister to fight the war. But hey; the story says so. Luke could have been a pilot for the Resistance if he didn't want to be a Jedi.
     
  7. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015
    I didn't say or imply that GL was the "decider". I said that when continuing a story and using characters that have all been created by an individual, it would be wise to actually write the story and characters so they feel like an actual continuation instead of a scribble over. I'm aware that you probably think the ST is a perfect continuation from the OT and thats fine. However, there is a sizable amount of people who do not feel this way. So many do not feel this way, that LFL has been on a course correction campaign after "taking a break from movies".


    So you're arguing that luke deciding that "there's gotta be another way", is not a redo of his interaction with darth vader. You then go on to accuse everything else in the ST of being a rehash.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2020
  8. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015
    DP
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2020
  9. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    I don't think they are in many ways. But GL having a perception doesn't automatically equal that that's the best option story/character wise.
    No matter what, Luke is capable of those emotions. He has attachments, by those structures already. But he doesn't turn like that. He's a flawed character. I think all the jedi are capable of caring about someone/something like that.
     
  10. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    But really even if he showed some dark side tendencies, he would still be an innocent kid. unless he outright did something bad prior, which is not explained. then he is still technically innocent until guilty.
     
  11. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    True, but we have no idea what he did or didn't do.
     
  12. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    The problem is that A) the ST wasn’t supposed to focus on Luke and Kylo above Rey as TLJ does, and B) Johnson also ended his film by then killing off Luke and “subverting” Kylo’s expected redemption and setting him up as the main villain...

    ...which also means that TLJ isn’t actually transitioning the ST to focusing on the Skywalker, it’s basically interrupting Rey’s story (and Finn’s, since hell yes, he’s a male lead and better than Kylo) for a Skywalker story it then wants to end immediately afterwards.

    So TLJ both damages and rejects the non-Skywalker focused story TFA and even itself (depending on how you view Rey Random) wanted time set up, and for the sake of the prosaic and conventional Skywalker story it’s simultaneously arguing shouldn’t be the obsession of the audience, before then “Ending” that same Skywalker story... so if you want to blaze new territory, you’re screwed, as Johnson didn’t, and squandered his opportunity to do so, but if you want to follow up on the Skywalkers, you’re *still* screwed, as Johnson has killed off Luke after a pathetic denouement, and has left Kylo as the final villain while ostensibly saying Rey is some proletariat hero fighting against some patrician Skywalker villain.

    Which is why there does seem to be one major area where LFL themselves got cold feet and stroked against TLJ in some ways while backing it up in others all before Abrams was hired to replace Trevorrow; they backed up Rian’s (terrible) idea of promoting Kylo to main lead and Rey’s (abusive and parasitic) love interest, but fundamentally rejected his idea of Kylo as the main villain.

    Basically, Johnson was the master of the most pretentious and hypocritical mixed message he could give: “*I* get to play with Skywalkers and demote everyone else in favor of them because they’re better than everyone else, but *you* don’t get to play with Skywalkers because that’s elitist and conventional.”
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2020
  13. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2019
    I don't recall Kylo Ren and Luke being initially introduced as the main leads in "The Force Awakens". In fact, I've always considered Rey and Finn as the main leads, thanks to the 2015. If Johnson had not insisted that neither of them was a Skywalker, I saw no point in focusing upon Luke and Kylo Ren so much, or the Sequel Trilogy being a part of the Skywalker family saga.
     
  14. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015
    GL's perception has nothing to do with what you and I are talking about.
     
  15. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    Because really the sequel trilogy is a sequel to the last 6 movies. its not Rogue One or Solo which they could do whatever they wanted with. this was episode 7 - 9 and chances are George would have made it a family story. so when we get to episode 7 - 9 it just comes across as odd the way the tried to juggle family with new.

    Should they have made a sequel trilogy? well George was planning in making a sequel trilogy, so when Disney got it... course they were gonna make a sequel trilogy. it would have a been a huge deal to do.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2020
  16. dogprivilege

    dogprivilege Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2015
    The major problem, as we all know, seems to be that literally no one was on the same page regarding how much the ST story was supposed to focus on the Skywalker/family aspects.
     
  17. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    And thus the only way Episode 8 could be a good sequel to both the PT-OT story and to TFA would have been with Rey as the Skywalker in it, one way or another. And while her being Luke’s surrogate daughter and only remaining apprentice could work in theory, her being his actual daughter or niece would clearly have worked better. And even if Abrams had already screwed up the idea with Rey Kenobi (...though that idea *could* actually lend itself well to a surrogate daughter story if done well), Johnson was the dude who shot both ideas down in his own special way.

    You don’t focus on a Skywalker, it’s not a good sequel to the PT and OT.

    You don’t focus on Rey and Finn, it’s not a good sequel to TFA.

    And let’s be honest, Finn got screwed over by Rey not being “the Skywalker” of the ST (surrogate or otherwise) because it meant that more focus would be put on Kylo over him and because it meant that he would have to share the “Everyman” story with Rey at best... and Johnson clearly didn’t care about screwing him over on top of that.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2020
  18. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    If the story is supposed to be the Skywalker Saga, then LFL should have made her a Skywalker (and no, not by marrying Kylo :rolleyes: or just deciding that would be her last name) or focused on the Skywalkers as main characters from the outset instead of promoting Rey as “the first female Jedi protagonist” when it wasn’t really her story.
     
  19. dogprivilege

    dogprivilege Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2015
    Yeah making Rey a Skywalker, and frankly making Finn a fellow Jedi-in-training was the most OBVIOUS way of tying what was established in TFA to the broader family Skywalker story AND to the broader Jedi/Force story. It's honestly baffling that wasn't mandated after TFA.

    That said? I still think TLJ is the best of the three movies with the most highlights even with these ridiculous decisions. So idk.
     
  20. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    Finn was never gonna be another Jedi under Disney. it was always gonna be 1 jedi and her friends. just like the OT.
     
  21. vaderito

    vaderito Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Of many mistakes ST made, Rey not being a (blood) Skywalker is not one of them. It's a good idea. Again, faulty execution like many other things in ST but not a bad idea. If they revealed her as a (good) Palpatine to counter a bad Skywalker and had House of Palaptine/House of Skywalker dynamic that Terrio talked about but never came through on screen, ST would have been interesting.

    Instead, they applied OT formula to Rey Non-Skywalker and surrounded her with non-Skywalker friends and that took the focus away from the Skywalkers whose Saga this is. And many fans weren't interested in that. So at least Rian figured where the focus should be but it's going to remain debatable whether his creative decisions worked or not.

    I'm too lazy to go back and check older pages to find whose quote it was that "everyone in the industry knows that Rian ruined SW" or something along those lines. I guess that's why a large number of very prominent actors and up and comers wanted to work on his new project (Knives Out) after TLJ came out and fandom backlash was in full swing. Perhaps they were hoping for The Producers type of a deal - the movie to be a sure-fire bomb cause SW Destroyer directed it and we walk away with money from such debacle? ;)
     
    Fredrik Vallestrand likes this.
  22. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    No one is denying that RJ is a good director. Whether he is good for SW is another debate. Personally I think if he was so interested in subverting everything he should have been given a stand alone film, not one with legacy characters.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2020
  23. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    After some time, I think maybe Rey as Luke's daughter can be worked into TROS, without going back and rewriting TLJ. Some of this is retrofitted from other concepts I posted here and elsewhere on TLJ, in case some of this feels familiar. Here are the ideas God, if He wills, has blessed me with:

    Kylo Ren, in his kill the past policy, has decimated the first order, and instead begun to recruit force users for a dark side army. After discovering a holocron that Snoke had sent the Knights Of Ren after before the events of TLJ, he uncovers the truth that he is the Sithari, the ultimate final solution of the sith: The complete consuming of the force. With the force having been balanced in with the deaths of Vader and Palpatine, it makes the force more palpable than ever before, more vibrant than ever before. This will allow Kylo to use he heart of ancient sith tech called the Star Forge, to absorb the force in it's most palpable state. Luke saw this in his vision. Snoke was a manifestation of the dark side.

    Finn has begun working with the resistance, but is frustrated with their inabilities and seeks to make a real difference. After hearing about the disbanding of the first order, he begins to think that maybe stormtroopers can be swayed to the resistance.

    Poe struggles with the idea of the responsibility that will be put on him as leader, once Leia retires. Having been humbled in the last movie, he understands his inabilities now, and seeks to resolve them, with his self destructive tendencies and they tie into his past, with his parents having died when he was a child at the hands of imperial remnants, this building to him finding something to live for, when he and resistance rescues the children taken by Kylo to make his dark side army.

    Some Rey character concepts of TLJ is continued, with a re-contextualizing of events. Rey was tempted to go to Kylo as the idea of disconnection was appealing to her. She'd been abandoned by her family, her ally had been hurt badly protecting her, the mentor she was looking to was killed. She almost fears connecting with people, as a fear of abandonment and a fear of them being lost. So, the idea of Kylo offering himself as someone whose disconnecting is an idea that seduces her, a desire to hide from her pain. Going forward in TROS, she's not connecting with people. She's trying to act on her own. Unwilling to accept help. Rey's arc is dealing with her lack of ability to connect with and trust people. In regards to this journey, Rey does discover that she is Luke's daughter, but is angry and hurt that he rejected her, then realizing herself that she thought having parents who were somebody would give them a good reason to have a abandoned her, like they were trying to protect her or had, but learning this, that her mom Mara Jade was sent away with her, because Luke feared for their safety (Mara Jade was been killed by Snoke after this, and after she'd hid Rey with some resistance members, this compiling a reasoning for Luke's emotionally damaged state and why he reacted so aggressively when he sensed Snoke's influence on Kylo and what the plan for Kylo was, as Luke thought Rey and Mara were killed), doesn't assuage those feelings of abandonment, anger, resentment and loneliness, those feelings of pain that she feels make it hard for her to truly connect with people, no matter how much they care for her. She does confront Luke in his energy form about this. This search builds to her discovering other jedi across the universe who are still alive, like Ahsoka, Ezra Bridger and others.

    Kylo, after the hut situation in TLJ, was sent by Snoke to kill Rey, with the Knights Of Ren. This was what Rey's vision in TFA was, in the rain. When Kylo discovered it was his cousin he was sent to kill, he resisted doing it, but instead wiped her memory and left her on Jakku. This emotional connection is what they're thing was about, not romance.

    Rose's arc is where the main stuff ties to: She lied to Finn about what happened to her and her sister. They were actually forced to build weapons for the the first order. Because of this, Rose has a sense of self loathing against herself. Her experience with first order weapons was how she knew Finn couldn't really damage the death star tech at the end of TLJ. Her and her sister helped build something that Kylo is going to use in his plan with the heart of the star forge. This drives her to try and do anything she can to stop it.

    In the midst of this, the remnant of the first order, under the leadership of General Hux, has sought an anti force user mentality, seeing that to blame for their failure in the Empire and the First Order. This will build into a war between the First Order, Kylo's Dark Side Army and the Resistance, with Rey and the other jedi on the planet of Ach-To, where the Well Of Mortis, a conduit of the force, lies.

    Thoughts?
     
    godisawesome likes this.
  24. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    That’s the first version I’ve seen to incorporate a mind wipe that I liked; and it actually works as a retroactive complex moment for Kylo, because the implication would be that he couldn’t kill Rey back then, but still wants to control her... but since he’s a Sithari, that makes sense.
     
  25. PendragonM

    PendragonM Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 7, 2018
    I am. TLJ is the only thing I've seen from him but based on that? I wouldn't let him direct the afternoon shift of C-Span Congressional hearings coverage.