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ST Rise Of Skywalker - Chosen One Prophecy

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by jedilord27, Dec 20, 2019.

  1. The Chalk Jedi

    The Chalk Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2019
    It certainly is a retcon. Reread what I wrote above. We've gone from the Chosen One being a rare and special thing to it being generational and normal. You must see the difference there?
     
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  2. obi-arin-kenobi

    obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2005
    The chosen one is a "retcon" of Return of The Jedi.

    Just sayin.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2020
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  3. The Chalk Jedi

    The Chalk Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2019
    True, and yet this is a retcon from the creator trying to expand the world of Star Wars. It's not a lack of originality from people just merely imitating the creator. Do you see the difference?

    Do you see how something becomes less special when it becomes generational rather than singular?

    One in a lifetime is much less in number than every 10 or 20 years. This approach weakens Lucas's goals for the Saga. And yes, his story grew over time, but it was his story.

    Now we just have a repetition that makes the concept less powerful. Why would we want that? Who shall be the next Chosen One? We should expect one every ten years or so now. Who even needs the other Jedi when we're just waiting on the new savior?

    The savior concept in many ways depends on rarity, or it just becomes absurd.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2020
  4. cratylus

    cratylus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 9, 2001
    I've always thought there might be a "chosen one" in every generation, who can succeed or fail at the mission if opportunity presents. As creative or speculative as that may be (and as similar as it is to a certain real-world religion) it just occurred to me when I was watching Episode I. LIke what if Qui-gon was the previous chosen one, then Anakin. I'm completely ready for someone to dismiss this idea but something like it has always interested me.
     
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  5. obi-arin-kenobi

    obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2005
    Absolutely but the challenges of each generation is very much so part of what all of star wars is about, as well.

    It seems silly to think that someone else can't be responsible for bad actions or faltering in the force, just because the prophesy was fulfilled. After all, anakin destroys it all, not just the sith. He is amidst the destruction of both the jedi and the sith.
     
  6. The Chalk Jedi

    The Chalk Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2019
    Generational struggles certainly make sense. But there should be sufficient thought put into the stories so as to not weaken past concepts. Right?

    The threat in the ST should have either been different enough not to erode the Chosen One concept, or it should have been expanded more in a way where we could understand it at a deeper level.

    Retconning can be good when it makes sense or adds to the story; it's bad when it weakens ideas, is derivative and confusing.

    Does anyone really believe that the ST added clarity to the themes of balance of the Force and the Chosen One?
     
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  7. obi-arin-kenobi

    obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2005
    The same could be said for the prequels and the chosen one prophesy.

    The idea of family and generations and each generation stepping out into the world and facing their own set of challenges was there long before the prophesy was there. The films make a point of this in having Yoda tell luke to pass on what he has learned. If it was peace for good thered be no reason to. A prophesy shouldn't dictate the free will of others.
     
  8. Palp_Faction

    Palp_Faction Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2002
    This!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
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  9. Palp_Faction

    Palp_Faction Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2002
    It was the extent at which the Force was out of balance that made the Chosen One necessary. In the OT it was in complete darkness and Anakin rescued the Force from that and reset the equilibrium. In the ST Palpatine is a zombie. His influence on the balance of the Force at that point was negligible compared to him at his height in ROTJ hence the prophecy still stands. Yes the Force was technically out of balance in the ST but it hadn't slipped all the way into darkness.
     
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  10. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    The prophecy was always strange due to the amount of time that other Jedi had already brought peace and prosperity and the fact that evil can always return at any time.

    Anakin’s existence still played a significant aspect in the end of Sidious yet again. The impact of the chosen one endured. For all the reasons I mentioned before.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
  11. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Exactly. The Chosen One prophecy is fairly vague. It is up for interpretation in within the confines of the SW universe. It's up for interpretation amongst fans. Never is explained what bringing balance is in detail.

    I smell what you are cookin', but I disagree with you in some ways. I love Lucas and The Prequels....

    That said, one could make the argument that much of the PT weakened aspects of the OT. This isn't necessarily my view, but many fans claim that the PT wrecked Darth Vader by making him a messiah* in the 1st place.

    *and a whiny, unlikeable, teen.

    The the religious allegory (and the demystification of Vader) and was an entirely new and momentous shift of intent. If Vader/Anakin was always meant to have been the space savior....ANH, ESB, and (especially) ROTJ would have leaned into this hard. Fact is, they didn't. The chosen one prophecy was new, and it totally changes the original intent/story of Star Wars and Darth Vader. Again, many fans hated this. They pointed fingers at George Lucas, just as fans point to Abrams and Johnson, etc.

    Now, George Lucas is THE creator of Star Wars and it's well within his rights to make these changes. He's also well within his rights to alter the OT in any way he sees fit (special edition changes and beyond). Yet, there is a LEGION of Star Wars fans that absolutely despise the changes of direction, tone and aesthetic that George Lucas brought to the saga post 1983.

    Honestly, In many way, I think the ST creators were very (too?) cautious to make changes to the Saga. They didn't push boundaries enough, yet the changes they did make were absolutely crucified by a portion of the fan base.

    I think for better or worse, the ST creators (who are fans) often showed more reverence for the OT than George Lucas ever did. Lucas always seemed to treat the OT like a compromised version of his vision that he "settled for." Meanwhile, the creators of the ST treated the OT (and aspects of the PT) like something to aspire to. See the difference?

    Again, I love the PT and I am not turning this into a PT vs. ST thing, but I can understand the creators of the ST prioritizing honoring the OT first in order to get back to that "classic Star Wars" feeling.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
  12. Callous Jedi

    Callous Jedi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2020
    The problem with the theory of the Chosen One, the one that will bring balance to the force: can change with the next movie. The only way to confirm who is the Chosen One -- you need a movie to make it cannon. Than again, Disney is not interested with cannon. The only way to confirm that Rey is the Chosen One, you have two rational ways to have this happen. Someone knows what Rey has done during her life, than goes back in time to say the story of the Chosen One. The story cannot confirm the gender of the Chosen One, nor, the name and time period. The other idea, a Jedi has a vision of the life of the Chosen One. We have a number of theories who can be the Chosen One, and were have male and female characters. The Chosen One has to be very vague for the Jedi Council, because they are unsure about the gender of the Chosen One. If I was going to role play as a Master Jedi on the Jedi Council: and the subject of the Chosen One comes up to role play. I would want a different story to role play out. What we know about the Chosen One, it is very vague. The Chosen One, were unsure the gender and the era in time the Chosen One will come into play. Were unsure the species of the Chosen One as well.
     
  13. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    It's not a retcon of RotJ. It doesn't change anything about that film at all. We just didn't originally know that Anakin was destined to do what he did in RotJ. That is a giant difference with the dyad retconning Anakin having been prophesied for a really long time (as in, longer than just one every other generation).
     
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  14. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2012
    The Dyad wasn't once a generation, it was "hadn't been seen in generations", it's portrayed as about as rare as Anakin's prophecy was. This all stems from him being the Chosen One anyway. The Dyad literally doesn't exist without him.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
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  15. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2019
    The what?:oops:
     
  16. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2016
    No, there's no evidence that the Kylo/Rey dyad was tied into the Chosen One prophecy, much less Anakin being it. That connection has never been made anywhere. Heck, it didn't even come into existence until Rey was born a good decade after ROTJ.
     
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  17. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2012
    No I mean, like, literally the Dyad can't happen if Anakin doesn't have children. There'd be no Kylo.

    I don't think Dyad in the Force is any sillier plot concept than The Chosen One. Heck, the Dyad even got it's own Sith prophecy too!
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
  18. cratylus

    cratylus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 9, 2001
    Luke was confirmed to be Very Special from the earliest draft of The Empire Strikes Back. Since it's clear this was connected to his paternity in the original films, and this is emphasized in Return of the Jedi, the notion of Anakin as a prophesied "chosen one" explained this uniqueness while also ramping it up.
     
  19. The Chalk Jedi

    The Chalk Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2019
    "This rarely happens!"

    "This happens every decade!"

    The same.
     
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  20. obi-arin-kenobi

    obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2005
    So you are saying Lucas, at the time of him developing Luke, thought to himself, "well how do I fit luke into this prophecy?" I doubt it.
     
  21. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    No, the point is that the introduction of the prophecy in the prequels didn't undermine the significance of the events in the originals. It only enhanced it.

    And nothing was contradicted. Every story of this type is about the eradication of evil and the restoration of balance to an unbalanced society (read Campbell). All Lucas did with the prequels was formalize something that was already present in the story.

    There were ways of extending the story which didn't undermine the significance of what came before. There was basically only one sure-fire way of completely undermining what came before, and that was bringing back the Empire and the Emperor to both be destroyed again, and that's (amazingly) exactly what they chose to do.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
  22. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    @The_Phantom_Calamari answered this super well, but I just want to add one thing. Whether RotJ was retconned has zero to do with whether GL was thinking about it when he wrote RotJ.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
  23. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Yeah, it's also worth noting, just for the record, that the idea of a messianic prophecy pertaining to the events of the original trilogy was there almost from the beginning.

    Here's how the second draft for the original Star Wars begins:

    “… And in the time of greatest
    despair there shall come a savior,
    and he shall be known as: THE SON
    OF THE SUNS.”
    Journal of the Whills, 3:127


    Of course at this early stage this prophecy would have been referring to Luke, but the point is that the idea was there. And it also goes directly to anther point--to say that Lucas never thought to himself, "Well, how do I fit Luke into this prophecy?" is, in fact, quite comically mistaken. That was actually, literally, one of the original questions he asked himself.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
  24. obi-arin-kenobi

    obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2005
    Exactly.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
  25. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    The only way the chosen one prophecy doesn't alter ROTJ (and the OT) is if you don't watch the prequels.

    The chosen one is an invention/convention of the prequels. As I said, the religious allegory and Anakin as messiah was an entirely new and momentous shift of intent. If Vader/Anakin was always meant to have been the space savior...the OT would have addressed this in the first place..it didn't. The chosen one prophecy was new, and it totally changes the original intent/story/tone of Star Wars and Darth Vader.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
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