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ST Rise Of Skywalker - Chosen One Prophecy

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by jedilord27, Dec 20, 2019.

  1. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Maybe there was no prophecy?
     
  2. MaverickJedi85

    MaverickJedi85 Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2019
    Yet he says he actually did!
     
  3. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2016
    No, it was a real thing in the series (the characters talk about it a lot, we get to read it ourselves in the Master & Apprentice novel) and everything official indicates that the intent was that Anakin was the prophecy and fulfilled it. The debate seems to be on whether that makes any sense in context of the stories since.
     
  4. jeangreyforever

    jeangreyforever Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2019
    Honestly, as someone who never cared for prophecy retcon, I'm glad it isn't directly mentioned in TROS. Even Anakin stating how he brought balance to the force doesn't explicitly mention the prophecy (even though he is obviously alluding to it) so it works for me as if the prophecy never existed in the first place.
     
  5. Palp_Faction

    Palp_Faction Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2002
    The way I see it is that the Sith had been like a parasite feeding off the Force for centuries, growing in strength and putting the Force out of kilter. Anakin put an end to that. In the ST we see the Sith try and return and for a brief moment the Force wobbles, but Rey managed to maintain the equilibrium that Anakin achieved at Endor.
     
  6. Jedi_Master_Laker

    Jedi_Master_Laker Jedi Grand Master star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Its disturbing that after the 9th and final movie in a saga is complete how many people question or disregard basic foundations of the OT, PT. It's a reflection of the lack of cohesiveness the ST has to the other 6.
    I couldn't tell you how many people I have asked "Who's lightsabers were buried at the end?" 95% of the people who have watched all 9 films reply "Leia and Luke's "
    Shame....
     
    Dagobah_Dude likes this.
  7. zackm

    zackm Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    Prophecies being ironclad is bad for storytelling. I assume all prophecies are flawed and unreliable.
     
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  8. Sable_Hart

    Sable_Hart Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2009
    In-universe, the Chosen One prophecy never proclaims the restored balance is permanent.

    This fact, combined with two others: Sheev confirming to Kylo he died at Endor and Anakin's spirit urging Rey to "bring back the balance, as I did" gives us a straightforward conclusion: Anakin did restore balance by killing the Emperor at Endor. At some point, the Emperor was resurrected and the balance was upset once more. Rey, by channeling the power of all the Jedi past, including Anakin, restores the balance Anakin achieved decades earlier by killing the Emperor at Exegol.

    Is Rey a Chosen One? Perhaps in function, in that like the Chosen One that preceded her, she restored balance to the Force. But technically speaking, I'd say no. Unlike Anakin, Rey's victory over the Emperor owes significantly to her channeling the power of Jedi past. Also unlike Anakin, she is not at the center of any known Chosen One prophecy except perhaps one about the dyad in the Force.

    Now whether or not this is a sufficient distinction to preserve the significance of Anakin's sacrifice is entirely subjective. I certainly get why people think it tramples over Anakin's actions at Endor.
     
  9. obi-arin-kenobi

    obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2005
    It is very simple and this can be applied to any number of issues or questions people have with these new films:

    Episode 7, 8, and 9 are NOT the original authors work. Perhaps bits and pieces were used here and there but the fact of the matter this end to the saga is not that of the original authors, and therefore a lot of themes and story arcs will remain a mystery.
     
  10. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    It isn't darkly ironic. It's supposed to be a positive thing. The ending of ROTJ represents the fulfillment of the prophecy, and it's a happy and joyous ending where love again reigns supreme and all the heroes are celebrating together as a family. That's what bringing balance to the Force means.

    The ST certainly undermined the meaning of that accomplishment, especially given everything that was done to lives of the heroes after ROTJ. You can love or hate the new movies, but the fact remains that trying to make the ST fit with the story line established by George Lucas is a fool's errand. The people making these new movies didn't care even a little bit about maintaining consistency with the prequels (or even the originals, really, but that's another discussion). No one told J.J. Abrams to be mindful of the Chosen One plot line introduced in The Phantom Menace when coming up with his story. I can tell you right now, that is a conversation that never, ever happened.

    The ST is essentially a reboot that, at most, tries to connect back to the OT. It has virtually nothing to do with the PT save for a few superficial references which don't truly impact on the plot, a plot which was conceived without taking the PT into account in any meaningful way. I wouldn't think this is controversial.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2020
  11. obi-arin-kenobi

    obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2005
    Within film the Prophecy is a mystery in that it is believed something or someone will bring balance, but what that means for the future is uncertain. There are scenes(off the top of my head) in the Phantom Menace where Yoda questions the training of Anakin and his essence in general, along with the conversation between obi wan, Mace Windu, and Yoda, questioning this prophecy.(in ROTS)
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2020
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  12. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    The characters in Revenge of the Sith question the prophecy in order to put doubt in the mind of a viewer watching the films in episodic order, so that Anakin's turn will have more dramatic impact. But the prophecy is confirmed to be true in Return of the Jedi when Anakin fulfills it by doing away with the Emperor and his own dark persona, thus destroying the Sith and restoring freedom to the galaxy.

    That's the story of the original six movies. There's absolutely no ambiguity, and not even any perceived ambiguity had any impact on the way Kathleen Kennedy, J.J. Abrams and others conceived the story for the ST. People keep going back to that well, but the fact is you can't justify the story of the ST by pointing to the PT, because no one involved in making these new films ever seriously thought about the story of the PT. They considered those films divisive and they wanted to move away from them. Abrams himself clearly didn't care for them. The ST has nothing to do with the PT except for a few inconsequential references that were eventually thrown in as scraps for PT lovers who had become a little bit more vocal.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2020
  13. obi-arin-kenobi

    obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2005
    Its being told from the perspective of it being episode one. It is the characters themselves which are mystified by the prophecy. It is a question which is first raised in the Phantom Menace, and carries into Revenge of the Sith. Its in the films, period. Anakins turn does not need a prophecy to be dramatic. The turn of the proposed hero is dramatic by itself, simply put.

    Last Jedi had a lot of connections to the pt amd ot. Just look at Lukes character. It is very much in line with what had come before.

    Much of what you say seems like your own projection, as opposed to what is actually shown on film.
     
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  14. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    TROS has Hayden as Anakin saying “Bring balance to the force, Rey, as I did.”

    And Palpatine says he has died before.

    The prophecy happened but Palpatine has found a way to return and only his granddaughter with the help of Anakin’s saber and his children’s guidance, Jedi texts and sabers can help stop him once more.
     
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  15. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    I don't understand a lot of what you're saying in this post but you seem to be deliberately ignoring Return of the Jedi, where Anakin fulfills the prophecy.

    I also don't think you understand what projection is. Are you saying I'm projecting my own disdain for the PT onto Kennedy, Abrams, and co.? That makes no sense. I like the PT.
     
  16. obi-arin-kenobi

    obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2005
    I never ventured into whether or not the prophecy was fulfilled or not, only that what it is to the characters in the prequel trilogy is not fully known, outside it bringing balance to the force. What this means for them, and the galaxy at large, is unkown within the films story.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2020
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  17. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    I don't think that's true. I think it's pretty clear what bringing balance to the Force means. Everything you see during the ending celebration scene is what it means. And I also think it's pretty clear that the ST violently undermines the meaning of that ending.

    My point is that the ST isn't the way it is because the filmmakers decided to take advantage of any perceived ambiguities in the story of the original six films. It is the way it is because they wanted to recreate the success of the OT, and in their minds that meant recreating the conditions and story of the OT. That was their starting point and any collateral damage to the prior story was deemed an acceptable casualty.

    I can guarantee you that the Prophecy of the Chosen One was not a topic of even minor concern for them when coming up with the new story. It wasn't a consideration. So acting as if it was is proceeding from a false premise. There is no justification for the ST's impact on the prophecy to be found in the original six films, because the makers of the ST never went looking for one.
     
  18. Krueger

    Krueger Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2004
    Still think that Anakin was meant to "kickstart" the Chosen One prophecy, so saying that he's the CO still works. Everyone thought that it would come from him, and him alone. However, it ended up including everything that came from the Chosen One, like his children and grandchild, and people who he and others from his bloodline touched along the way, as well as his lightsaber. I think its actually quite poetic that a Palpatine, unbeknownst to anyone, was actually a part of the prophecy, too. Without Anakin, though, none of it would have happened. As a result, I still see Anakin as the Chosen One. It just wasn’t as linear and clear-cut as the Jedi of old expected it to be, which is the way prophecies usually work, anyway.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2020
  19. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    Or just like everything else, they needed to take his accomplishment away and give it to their new pet character, just like with Luke.

    Somehow people are supposed to find "he did, but not even for his son's entire lifetime" to be a satisfying "payoff.". Yeah no, they should have left it alone.

    There's nothing "deep" or "poetic" about it, it's just lazy and uncreative.
     
  20. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Well, sure, you can make anything mean anything if you try hard enough. But you know who didn't think about this nearly as hard as you're doing right now? The people who made these movies.
     
  21. obi-arin-kenobi

    obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2005
    I think you are venturing off topic or into another discussion.

    The prophecy is ambiguous to the characters in the prequels. Dialogue insinuates this within the films. Nowhere did i say that the prophecy was not fulfilled, only that what it means for the characters in the story is not known to them. This starts in the Phantom Menace when Yoda states he senses grave danger in anakins training, and continues all the way into Sith, where in one instant he says "the prophecy, misread, could have been."
     
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  22. whostheBossk

    whostheBossk Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 16, 2002
    As much as the ST didn't dive into this topic, I can't say I blame them as only Lucas knows how it worked. When i first heard that Palpatine was returning (SW Celebration Chicago) I was not amused. It played out fine and makes sense on many levels, however I wish it would have played out not having Palpatine. It was nice to at least hear Anakins voice and see his power in Rey/his saber during the deflection. Love it. Wish it were his Force Ghost or louder but great ending to saga none the less.
     
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  23. Glitterstimm

    Glitterstimm Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2017
    Everyone interprets things differently, and for me, the prophecy is ambiguous in the PT/OT. When Jedi and Sith gaze into the future the see infinite possibilities, always shifting and inscrutable. The Prophecy of the Chosen was one of those recurring possibilities, or maybe it was an eerily omnipresent feeling, or a methodology for divination. Maybe it was just an archaeological fragment. I like to think that it was probably different things to different people. I believe Anakin did fulfill the prophecy, but nobody knew exactly how that would happen until it did.

    I also believe that none of the writers of the ST gave any serious consideration whatsoever to the prophecy and it had zero substantive impact on any of the ST films. When Rey hears Anakin's voice reference it, that is not a real answer to any question because TROS is not a real sequel to TLJ or TFA, let alone ep. I - VI. If the ST's writers had been serious about incorporating Kylo or Rey or any other parts of their movies into the prophecy, then they would have included Anakin, it's really that simple. When they chose not to they exposed their disinterest in the Star Wars mythos.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2020
  24. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2011
    https://www.indiewire.com/2019/12/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-chris-terrio-spoilers-1202198680/
     
  25. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2012
    Anakin says to Rey "Bring balance as I once did." So he did cuz he said he did. So he brought balance, he killed Palpatine. Whatever that Palpatine was who came back DID die, he says so, and his return was dark side and "unnatural". It threw the balance out of whack again cuz he cheated. Also there's the entire concept of Balance in the Force and a Dyad in the Force in two people that hasn't been seen for generations can be interpreted as a part of that. I like @Krueger notion that Anakin basically got the ball rolling and it all comes from him anyway. And, as stated in the film, Anakin is part of All the Jedi that blasts Sidious at the end there.

    And, y'know, as Yoda said in Episode III the prophecy could have been misread anyway. There's your ultimate escape hatch.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020