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ST Rise Of Skywalker - Chosen One Prophecy

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by jedilord27, Dec 20, 2019.

  1. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    I honestly don't understand what transpired. Anakin says, "Restore the balance, Rey, as I did." Or something like that. People in the EU community believe that Anakin restored the Sith and Jedi to an equal playing field. But that has always been a problematic prophecy, even if you ignore the EU. Let's say Snoke and Ren were not Sith. They look like Sith in TLJ. In TFA, they don't. They come off like some other dark side cult. To call them Dark Jedi would be silly, since that would diminish TFA. Lucas vacillated between saying that Anakin would "destroy the Sith" or "bring balance." Either way, that raises some questions. The problem is that true pantheism, monism, or belief in anything like the Over-Soul/Atman does not require one messiah to restore any balance. It requires many avatars of the divine. In that paradigm, all sentient beings in the universe are part of the divine. The entire universe is divine. Thus, all Jedi and Sith are equal. All darkness, light, and moral ambiguity serves the greater purpose of fate. In other words, Jesus would be one of many incarnations of God, like every other being in the cosmos.

    By that logic, Lucas did not know what he was doing. Now, the EU went a step ahead to correct this by saying that Sidious was "The Shadow" and Anakin was the Chosen One. Plagueis and his master saw that. Anyhow, I do think the notion of the dyad helps this. A dyad throws out more than one avatar, and I think it's one of the good ideas in TROS. Now, it's up to you whether or not Terio and Abrams depicted that well or not.
     
  2. Tan-Wessel

    Tan-Wessel Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 31, 2001
    Before TPM, the thousand generations of Jedi thought the Sith was extinct but still believed in a prophecy of one who would bring balance to the Force. That by itself says it isn't a 1:1 Jedi/Sith/being/whatever thing.

    I don't think Anakin throwing Palpatine down the shaft or killing all the Jedi brought balance to the Force. Anakin used both light side and dark side philosophically unlike Palpatine, Yoda, etc. Qui-Gon didn't either, though contributed towards balance coming. Anakin's turn to the dark side to save Padme is the exact same rationale for Vader turning to the light side to save Luke. He didn't actually have a change of heart or anything. "That name no longer has any meaning" is just Vader in denial; nor does "he ceased to be Anakin Skywalker blah blah true from a certain point of view".

    After Anakin, we have what: Luke who isn't following the dogmatic views of the last Jedi Order. Rey, who definitely isn't, and Ben/Kylo who definitely isn't. So Anakin was the first and all subsequent force users are pretty much balanced now, since there's no rulebooks. The Bendu, Maz and whoever other Force users never really distinguished between light and dark sides. It was mainly the Jedi and Sith. Again, it's not numbers, but Anakin's actions that brought on balance through those "lines" of Force users, since his actions have resulted in nobody since him going "oh it has to be this way, only this way".

    Yoda and Obi-Wan understood that finally, but they didn't actively play a role there. They still taught Luke only light side stuff since that's what they knew.

    It's not good vs. evil. And I'm not saying Anakin killing Younglings was for some greater good one day, chosen one hero moment. The Force chose him agnostic of any morality leanings to be the person responsible for a more pervasive "will of the Force" philosophy. That there really isn't a light side, nor dark side, there's just the Force. The light and dark are what's in everyone in AGFFA, but the Force doesn't pick sides.
     
    whostheBossk likes this.
  3. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Where in the prophecy did it say that Palpatine wouldn't come back? The only points of the prophecy that are given are that the Chosen One would bring balance to the Force (Episode 1) and destroy the Sith (Episode 3). Anakin accomplished both points (Episode 9 has him state that he brought balance, and in Episode 6, he kills Sidious and turns away from the Sith and dies, destroying the Sith Order in one day).

    The Sith Eternal resurrecting Palpatine and Rey being the one to defeat and kill him with his second life has nothing to do with the prophecy.
     
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  4. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    No one's saying you can't rules lawyer the prophecy. They're questioning whether it makes for a satisfying story to do so.

    With the sequel trilogy, it doesn't feel like the thousand-year prophecy amounted to much, because the dude just came back a few years later.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
  5. cratylus

    cratylus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 9, 2001
    Perhaps "destroying the sith" is part of how the Jedi MISREAD the prophecy.

    Is it balance between darkness and light, or could it be something else?

    For example, it might be that the Force was too masculine.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
  6. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    I'm very sorry, but this post contains no meaning.
     
  7. cratylus

    cratylus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 9, 2001
    It's meant to be a broad opener. There are all sorts of ways the Force could be out of balance. Sure, the Dark Side is too powerful in the prequel era (and thus, also in the classic era) but there might be other imbalances at work too. For instance though this is not in the film there is discussion of the "living force" versus the "unifying force." Purportedly the Jedi of the old republic were overly concerned with the unifying force, as opposed to the living force which was Qui-Gon's particular emphasis. But the masculine feminine dynamic I am talking about is potentially another aspect of balance.

    For evidence of this speculative hypothesis, I would refer to the manifestation of excessive male force users especially at the top of both hierarchies (Jedi and Sith) up until Anakin had twins. Anakin's partner Padme may have been force-attuned but is not considered force-sensitive. However Leia may have been Luke's equal, or even had higher potential. So this is a move toward balancing masculinity and femininity in the Force. Subsequently in the latter part of the sequel trilogy the massively powerful force users are actually balanced--two female and two male, then down to two male and one female, then one of each.* Then there is only one left, and she's female... but we see others coming up. Broom boy for instance. Could he be the next villain? Or is peace going to be permanent now that the secret haven of the dark side has crumbled? I'm just speculating here, but there could be much more to balance than reducing the dark side. And there might be more different layers and aspects to it. Who knows how much lore the Jedi accumulated (and the Sith too) over twenty-five thousand years?

    *These two being a dyad seems relevant to the emergence of balance beginning with the original death of Darth Sidious. Also note Snoke's assumption that the light would "balance out" the rise of darkness, possibly a feature of the more balanced conditions after this event. I'm just exploring here.
     
  8. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Well, no, it's pretty simple. The Sith throw the Force out of balance by overwhelming light with dark. Anakin destroys the Sith and thus removes the agent causing the imbalance. Balance is restored.

    There's no reason to make it more complicated.
     
  9. cratylus

    cratylus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 9, 2001
    You can say no reason, but for me at least there are questions especially when they never gave us the words of the prophecy in the films, and never said how it might be misread. I suppose there's Obi-Wan's statement that (he thought) the Chosen One was supposed to destroy the Sith. He must know something about the prophecy, right? But the film doesn't explicitly show that this was part of the prophecy. It might be his interpretation. And besides, reading into the films and creating our own meaning out of them is how we play with them and how they function as mythology. To incorporate the sequels, we have to put more pieces together. So if we want to give them a chance as canon we get to be creative like this. Maybe it's not for everyone.
     
  10. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Lor San in TFA- "Without the Jedi there can be no balance in the force."
    Luke in TLJ - "For a while there was balance..."
    Anakin in TROS - "Bring back the balance Rey, as I did."

    Palpatine appears to have actually been dead for a while, then brought back to a state of half-death. He is struggling to come back into true existence (and through him the Sith Order) through his descendant Rey and Anakin's own descendants. And the First Order were only in power for about a year in the end.
    If Rey had turned and become Sidious's vessel the balance would seemingly be out permanently.

    Rey having the strength of the past Jedi when she kills Palpatine ties things up relatively satisfyingly (to me).
    And Ben Solo contributing to Rey's success, and going further than that ensuring the Jedi will live on in Rey (Skywalker by name) by reviving her, means the force was brought back into balance through Anakin's descendants. Rey also uses sabers which have belonged to Anakin and his two children to finally end Palpatine.
     
  11. ScreamingWoman2019

    ScreamingWoman2019 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2018
    Well, Ben/Kylo in TLJ and TROS asks Rey to join him, in order to rule together. That's Vader saying the same thing to Luke in TESB.
    In TFA, Ben/Kylo says: 'you need a teacher. I can show you the ways of the force'. That's TESB Vader too: 'You’ve only begun to discover your power! Join me, and I will complete your training!'

    The TROS Vd talks about a prophesized dyad. In the Exogol section, the sith runes denoting the rule of two are nearly identical to those describing a dyad, we are said.

    Maybe this reflects something about english. The Rule of Two (a master and an apprentice) would also be, via the prophesized dyad, the rule of two: a corule, a dyarchy ('rule together')

    In the 'Plagueis' novel, Plagueis plans to rule together with Sidious and to bring 'a new meaning' (his words) to the rule of two. Sidious kills him. But before that, we have this:
    Plagueis, Qui-Gon. The sith and the jedi learning how to cheat death around the time the chosen one appeared.

    So maybe the chosen one prophecy included the rule of two being subverted from within and from the netherworld. Abrams called Rey learning those skills during the mindprobe 'spooky'. Ghosts are spooky.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2020
  12. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    It wasn't misread. Yoda thinks it might have been misread in Episode III, but he is proven wrong in Episode VI. There's no lingering question. The question is answered. Anakin is the Chosen One after all, and he restores balance to the Force by destroying the Sith.
     
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  13. cratylus

    cratylus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 9, 2001
    Go ahead and take it simply if you like, but other people might enjoy looking into it more deeply and having their own theories. Here is another: Perhaps the balance of the force involves things the Jedi actually do not want. Maybe the near-total destruction of the Jedi order was inherently implied by the prophecy. After all, the way the council all looked at each other didn's suggest that Qui-Gon's announcement was good news. Without the text of the prophecy being read out as such, we are free to speculate or imagine. Lucas left it that way and the new films open up new possibilities for interpretation.
     
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  14. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Lucas literally says that Anakin was the Chosen One and that he brought balance by destroying the Sith. This is also literally what Obi-Wan says Anakin was supposed to do in Episode III. We know what the prophecy was about, and we see Anakin fulfilling those conditions in Episode VI. There's no ambiguity here. That's the story. It's not complicated.

    Disney should have added onto the story rather than retconning it and rendering it incoherent and ultimately meaningless.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2020
  15. cratylus

    cratylus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 9, 2001
    We don't know why the imbalance began or all of what it did, we don't no forcertain what underlay the loss of balance or when it began even. Was the force already out of balance when the prophecy was made? How old is the prophecy in the first place? Did it predate the rule of two for the Sith? Did it mention them specifically. I already know what The Phantom Calamari thinks, but are there any takers? In particular I want to hear from people who are game to interpret this in-universe from a point of view that the sequel trilogy are fully legitimate canon. Others might find it an interesting exploration though even if they reject the sequels.
     
  16. dick rodgers

    dick rodgers Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 23, 2016
    George says Anakin was the Chosen One and restored balance to the Force. KK and JJ retconned this so that Rey could restore balance to the Force. Those quotes are from the ST, so your still only referencing JJ and KK's ideas. It doesnt make the retcon itself any more vindicating. By this new logic, Rey could simply restore balance for A WEEK, or a year, or a few. And then some other random Sith beings that come out of thin air can resurrect Palps from the dead again and then Rey can whisper to the new protagonist, "Restore balance as I did, and Anakin did". FAN FICTION.
     
    Mark Pierre likes this.
  17. obi-arin-kenobi

    obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2005
    To be fair the whole chosen one thing gets thrown out of whack, imo. There was always the inference that each generation will face challenges. It is naive to think that theres one prophecy and that's it, from now on everyone lives happily ever after for eternity.
     
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  18. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Fair enough if you didn't find it a satisfying conclusion. Way I see it, the movies were always more interested in the characters then the mechanics of prophecies and I think the ending of each trilogy (all which touched on the prophecy in one way or another) was a satisfying end for the stories of the main characters. Mileage may vary.
     
  19. Fredrik Vallestrand

    Fredrik Vallestrand Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 15, 2018
    I think the way the prophecy in mortis explained it works for the ST too.
     
  20. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Not entirely related to the topic but I was thinking about how large a shadow Anakin has on even the events of the ST recently.

    His saber and his daughter’s saber are used to defeat Sidious.

    The droid he created as a child decoded the clue to Exogul.

    His personal wayfinder brought Rey to her grandfather.

    His grandson felt he was talking to him when it was Palpatine all along.

    His son still had issues related to the dark side and not wanting to be like Vader years later.

    His kids train Palpatine’s grandaughter.

    His son finds the ancient Jedi texts.

    He speaks to the granddaughter of Palpatine as she lies there and helps her to rise.

    His grandson gives his life to save hers and discovers the selflessness he wishes he could have all those years ago.

    His act to save his son become part of the inspiration for Palpatine thinking he can manipulate his granddaughter.

    It’s just interesting to me that even though he’s been dead for 30 years his impact was that vast in so many different ways.
     
  21. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2019
    It's a pity that all of this transpired through three badly written movies.
     
  22. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Why do we need to know the answers to any of those questions? They don't give us any insight to anything or impart any meaning. It's just trivia.

    There's no reason to radically re-contextualize the original Star Wars saga just because J.J. Abrams doesn't like the prequels. It's absurd.
     
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  23. The Chalk Jedi

    The Chalk Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2019
    We have two concepts at play that contradict each other. The first concept was that the Force being out of balance wasn't merely the Sith rising to power, but fundamentally shifting the Force out of balance so that the darkside dominated everything. This was supposed to have been an out of ordinary event, and thus a Chosen One was needed, and this made Anakin special.

    But the ST retcons this. Now the Force being out of balance isn't rare, but regular. The Force goes out of balance every few years, whenever a darksider grows powerful. This makes Anakin less special, and more like Buffy the Vampire Slayer: a chosen one is a thing for every generation essentially.

    This makes Force Jesus more like Force player of the decade.
     
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  24. Fredrik Vallestrand

    Fredrik Vallestrand Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 15, 2018
    it weren't retconned. Anakin is still the chosen one. Rey and Ben are more two halfs of chosen ones with the dyad.
     
  25. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    It retcons the significance of Anakin's accomplishment, whether people want to admit it or not. It went from a mythic, epochal event to a stopgap measure until Rey came along.