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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

JCC Amph Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies - The Tabletop RPG Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Community' started by Ender Sai, Aug 13, 2015.

  1. Darth Punk

    Darth Punk JCC Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2013
    Lol - please tell me this is not a joke.
     
  2. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 13, 2008
    Oh they're not one-to-one direct stand-ins for non-white people in Tolkien, either, despite that probably playing a role in his creative process; he was perfectly content to tell you all about how the men of the south and east wild lands and how evil they were.

    Of course, no one gets to call Tolkien out for that because he once said the thing about disliking direct allegory, so nothing means anything or was influenced by anything, it all exists in a vacuum, all cultural and critical analysis must be voided, ideas never interact ever, and actually it is you who is the racist for suggesting this.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2020
  3. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    I mean, I do think if someone looks at Drow and immediately thinks that it has to be a stand in for a nonwhite race, I am going to question whether or not that person is racist. There's nothing similar between Drow and any nonwhite race on Earth, and the only reason someone might think there's something similar is if they go "x race is evil" and "drow are evil."

    I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with making a fantasy race "evil." Is it lazy and probably not as good worldbuilding as making complex societies? Absolutely. Does it not allow for better storytelling? You bet. But every fantasy race doesn't have to be super woke.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2020
  4. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Actually, the men of the south and east tend to be drawn as more the enslaved minions of Sauron. Much of the evil in Tolkien's works ends up being committed by Elves and Numenoreans - and they tend to end up being punished for it.

    These essays:

    https://jamesmendezhodes.com/blog/2...myth-part-i-a-species-built-for-racial-terror

    https://jamesmendezhodes.com/blog/2...he-martial-race-myth-part-ii-theyre-not-human

    do a good job of showcasing how orcs draw heavily on certain stereotypes in both Tolkien and D&D, all the way to 5e,.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2020
  5. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Bluntly, though, I don't think anyone's making the case that "ah yes, this fantasy race is exactly this real world thing" outside of strawman arguments being presented. The closest I've seen is accusations around the lines of how the Yuan-Ti are explicit embodiments of "yellow peril" stereotypes - and those aren't accusations presented by Wizards of the Coast, despite the latter's statements being the center of the overriding allegation in these strawman characterizations. I think if we're living in total denial of how pre-existing biases and cultural exposures might be influencing how people write and interpret art we're living in a way bigger fantasy world than anything being discussed here.

    Someone is going to bring up death of the author despite almost totally disagreeing with Barthes.

    I guess I would half-agree in that I don't think most creators resort to "FAKE THING EVIL" out of a conscious desire to cast aspersions on anyone real, but simultaneously I don't think we should cut ourselves off from analyzing why such ideas might be a problem if we want to understand ourselves better. The problem, for me at least, is that ~internet discourse~ always wants to smash these things into finding an individual or set of individuals to blame and permanently excise, just finding the right thing to consume instead, which doesn't really work all that well (I know for a fact I sometimes fall into this as well, which is on me).
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2020
  6. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    There's no such thing in real life as a race or species that's entirely evil (except what if we meet an alien race and they find out how we eat other living things for sustenance, make war with ourselves, etc and decide that "yeah, okay this terran race is pretty much all evil" but i think that's probably a conversation for a different thread anyways I'm getting sidetracked). However, the point of fantasy is that these things aren't real. We should be able to have non real things in fantasy that would be problematic if we were to look at it in real life. Otherwise there's really no point to fantasy.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2020
  7. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 13, 2008
    I'm just convinced that the desire to use fantasy to construct settings with hard-line "good" and "evil" things is illustrative of something we should analyze about ourselves and that it's only by unpacking this tendency within the work that we stand any chance. Why do we want binary morality in our escapism? Why did the author decide this shorthand signifier was "good" or "evil"? What does this usage say about society? I don't want to dodge the potential for insights there by hermetically sealing off a work from... well, hermeneutics.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2020
  8. Darth Punk

    Darth Punk JCC Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 25, 2013
    Personally, I think it’s totally triggering when I see Uruk Hai in whiteface.
     
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  9. Lordban

    Lordban Isildur's Bane star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2000
    One example of how to tell you can define a species as Always Evil: when you and them are at the same restaurant, they look at the menu and you are on it.
     
  10. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    What if there's just some space dust on it?!

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

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    Apr 17, 2006
    I think this is a worthwhile endeavor, generally outside of time spent playing DnD.

    I don't think that people on twitter championing for the changing of orcs into peaceful demisexuals are looking for this, however.
     
  12. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 13, 2008
    Well, yeah, there's a reason I basically only go on Twitter to check Ireland Simpsons Fans.
     
  13. Darth Punk

    Darth Punk JCC Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 25, 2013
    So sick of your sly digs at British food
     
  14. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

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    Apr 17, 2006
    If British people had a cuisine, they wouldn't have gone all over the world colonizing and stealing our food.
     
  15. Darth Punk

    Darth Punk JCC Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 25, 2013
    It’s your Chapati, you can cry if you want to.
     
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  16. Darth Punk

    Darth Punk JCC Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 25, 2013
    This.

    Has it been attempted? Not sure if I’d join initially, but ****, I’ve played dumber games on the JCC before.
     
  17. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 13, 2008
    Yes and no; there have been tabletop RPGs in other parts of the forum (there was a pretty long-running DnD campaign in the Roleplaying Forum, and I believe @JoinTheSchwarz has done some stuff over in Fan Force) - and to that end we used to have a dice app installed on Xenforo and everything - but I think the only ones done in the JCC specifically have all been elaborate jokes.
     
  18. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2005
    "It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil at heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace"
     
  19. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 13, 2008
    Okay, yes, I clearly misremembered that, my mistake. I'm still not exactly wild about the state of popular Tolkien "criticism" mind you, guy's work gets a weird amount of free passes for a dude waxing nostalgic for a fake pastoral era and openly supporting Franco.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2020
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  20. JoinTheSchwarz

    JoinTheSchwarz Former Head Admin star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2002
    I'd die before running a game for you people.

    No offense.

    Okay, maybe a little bit.
     
  21. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

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    Nov 8, 2001
    There was a game running when we had an RPG forum, yes. It went about as well as Yak running a Draft.
     
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  22. JoinTheSchwarz

    JoinTheSchwarz Former Head Admin star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 21, 2002
    I’ve actually been running a SWRPG game here in the forums since 2014.
     
  23. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 13, 2008
    Yeah, but Star Wars is... ... uh...

    Wait, I know this one.

    Starts with a b I think.
     
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  24. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    Part of what makes racism so dangerous and corrosive is how it can be so subtle and indirect. With that having been said, do you really need me to go dust off my copies of the AD&D Players Handbook and Fiend Folio?
     
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  25. Darth Punk

    Darth Punk JCC Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 25, 2013
    Sick burn.