Characters Rogue Jedi: Kyp Durron Discussion & Story Index -- Looking for a new challenge/discussion topic!

Well, this being still an open thread, I'm going to use it. Even if I do talk to myself.

Since the NJO award winners have been announced I must say that I was surprised that Kyp came in a close second behind Corran. No offense to Corran Horn fans but I can't see him really being the Best Supportive Character. He went on two missions and had a duel, the end result being the destruction of Ithor. But after that he wasn't heard of much.

Now Kyp on the other hand had appeared throughout the series. Yes he was against Luke through half of it but in Destiny's way he got a seat on the Council and Luke admitted that Kyp had been right.

Some people may not like Kyp but you have to admit that he was a key character if not a main character throughout the novels.

His dozen were a key in the discovery of the Vong. His tricking Jaina had a lot to do with her using him on Hapes, helping save them with learning Vong technology. His joining Jaina's squadron at Borleias saved Jag's life and maybe Jaina's too which would have meant no needed win for the Insiders.

A supporting character doesn't mean who agreed with Luke more. It's actually whose actions helped the main characters. In my opinion that was Kyp, hands down, as opposed to the other characters, except maybe Wedge Antilles who I would have voted second.

 

I agree. Corran? Even my dislike of him aside, I have to wonder. Kyp was a major catalyst, a driving force behind so many different things in the NJO. It would have been a very different place without him. Corran was a major character in a couple of books, yes, but it didn't seem to me like he was that important. I don't remember anything that happened where I thought that it had to be Corran who did that. Anyone could have played his role, taken his place. Kyp was irreplacable. No one could have been who he was. He had his own role that no one else even came close to being similar to.

Ugh. I'm having a difficult time verbalizing this, and I don't know why. D'you know what I mean?

 

I know exactly what you are saying and wholeheartedly agree.

 

Yeah, I understand what you're saying Jedi_Jaina_Durron.

But Lola64, I have to disagree with you on why Luke gave Kyp a Council position. I don't think he necessarily agreed with Kyp's view of the Force (even if he did admit his was not the absolute correct one), but that he wanted to keep the Jedi united, and to do that he needed to show that at least he wasn't shunning someone else's view. Also, who wouldn't want Kyp on the Council? He's a poweful Jedi, and... I just lost my train of though.

It's great to see this back up here though.

 

I'm glad I was totally incomprehensible.

But, yes, I agree. I do think a lot the purpose behind Kyp's council position had to do with unity, and also with having all the different viewpoints of the Force represented so they can all...I don't know...balance each other out. It was better for everyone involved for Kyp to be part of the Council so that he could have a voice and wouldn't leave and effectively break the order in half. Luke needed him to stay, and for him to stay, he needed a voice.

 

Lola and Mrs Durron: Actually Corran played a critical role in the Vong War. I don't think you can discount his battle with Shedao Shai or his part in TFP as key points in the story arc. Really I don't think just any other character could have taken his place. There were certain events that led Corran down his path. Certainly Kyp made a name for himself in the NJO but I don't know that one can argue it was bigger than Corran's.

With that said, and in all fairness to Kyp, Corran was simply written better. The authors who used his character actually cared about him. There weren't many authors who owned Kyp or championed him for that matter. So had they been written equally well things might have turned out differently.

That was exactly why he picked Kyp for the Council.

 

Oh wow. I can just imagine what would happen if there'd have been a split. Although, I'm not so sure it would be so bad. The only thing the Jedi on Kyp's side wanted to do in the war was fight the Vong, and Luke was holding them back. It didn't matter that the longer they held back from taking an active part in the war, the more people got killed or enslaved, Luke just wanted to sit and debate about whether or not the Vong were part of the Force. Which, IMO, didn't really matter anyway.

Edit (saw this after I posted, sorry!):With that said, and in all fairness to Kyp, Corran was simply written better. The authors who used his character actually cared about him. There weren't many authors who owned Kyp or championed him for that matter. So had they been written equally well things might have turned out differently.

I'm going to agree with you whole-heartedly on this. Also with Corran, people knew him longer. He was everybody's favorite flyboy with a mission from the X-Wing series, while Kyp was just some...revenge wishing star killer with a hard head who disagrees with everyone. Though everyone does tend to forget he was doing it all for the good of the New Republic.

Edit 2: I think we've got two interesting topics here. Kyp vs Luke and Kyp vs Corran.

 

Well, I disagree, TKL, but that's okay. Actually Corran played a critical role in the Vong War. I don't think you can discount his battle with Shedao Shai or his part in TFP as key points in the story arc. Actually, I felt like the whole Shedao Shai thing went nowhere. I didn't feel like it had any major ramifications for the whole series. Of course, it has been a while since I read it, and maybe I missed something. Also, the only time I have ever liked him okay is when Keyes writes him. I thought he was fine in TFP, but I really did feel like they could have written anyone into his place and everything would have ended up the same.

With that said, and in all fairness to Kyp, Corran was simply written better. The authors who used his character actually cared about him. There weren't many authors who owned Kyp or championed him for that matter. So had they been written equally well things might have turned out differently. In a way I agree. One of the things that distressed me about the NJO (which was inevitable, I realize, from its very conception) was the anamolies in character, especially in reference (but by no means limited to) to Kyp. He wasn't extremely well-written with obvoius exceptions (Cunningham and Keyes come to mind). But that was one of the amazing things about the whole situation: Elaine Cunningham has said she didn't like him, and yet she wrote him more sympathetically than just about anyone. Keyes had him doing terrible things, but even then, he made him more real, more human, more sympathetic. Even Denning, who hated him most of all (with exception of Stackpole perhaps), now admits that he has softened in his feelings towards him.

I don't know what I'm trying to say anymore, so I'm just going to stop now, except to say that I hold my position on Kyp.

thesporkbewithyou I really don't think Kyp vs. Luke is much of an issue any more. They seem to have made their peace with each other. Jaina's acceptance of Kyp and Luke's decision to invite him onto the Council gave him some legitimacy and Kyp watching Jaina fall helped him understand Luke better. I don't feel like they're on opposite sides anymore. And like I've always said, at the beginning of the NJO, Kyp was on one side, Jacen on the other, and we needed them both. And Luke held everyone together (the more I think about it, the more underrated he is. Just managing to hold the Jedi together during the war when everything they'd ever believed and built upon was being turned upside down is impressive.)

Kyp vs. Corran...now that's a whole different story. Let's not even go there. I tend to get violent.

I've also noticed that most Kyp fans really don't like Corran...probably because Corran doesn't like Kyp. But then, I didn't like him even back in the X-wing novels before he even met Kyp, so I don't know.

 

Elaine Cunningham has said she didn't like him, and yet she wrote him more sympathetically than just about anyone.

I don't want to burst your bubble, but I think there was an ulterior (don't think that's the right word) motive for that. Take a look at the story line she was dealing with. Jaina's just come back from Myrkyr after having lost both brothers and other friends, and is straddling the line between light and dark, then actually does fall for a short while. Almost no one understands what she's going through except Kyp. Would you portray someone helping someone else through bad times in a less than sympathetic manner?

You have a point about the Luke thing. But don't let me get into his usage in the NJO...that's another thing for another day and a different thread.

While I don't hate Corran, I'm not overly fond of him. Sure he doesn't like Kyp, but I think the main reason for a lot of people not liking him goes back to his "Gary-Stu" days.

 

thesporkbewithyou I don't think he necessarily agreed with Kyp's view of the Force (even if he did admit his was not the absolute correct one), but that he wanted to keep the Jedi united, and to do that he needed to show that at least he wasn't shunning someone else's view.

Actually I was referring to the Vong, not necessarily the Force that he was agreeing about. And when he gave his reasoning for agreeing Kyp admitted he couldn't have known that. Poor Kyppie was right but I think for the wrong reason.

TLK: Actually Corran played a critical role in the Vong War. I don't think you can discount his battle with Shedao Shai or his part in TFP as key points in the story arc.

Played a substantial role, yes, critical, maybe. His fight with Shedao only succeeding in changing three things, giving Borsk Feyla more ammunition against the Jedi, destroying the pollen thereby prolonging the war and giving us more novels, ridding us of one overlord only to give another.

I think what Corran did that was beneficial to the series was in mentoring Ganner.

Certainly Kyp made a name for himself in the NJO but I don't know that one can argue it was bigger than Corran's.

Not a bigger role but a More Supportive Role, not in a few novels but the overall series. That's all I was saying, when I speak English that is.

Kyp vs Corran? Not me, that seems to be Denning's job and I'm not too thrilled with how he's doing it.

 

Actually I was referring to the Vong, not necessarily the Force that he was agreeing about. And when he gave his reasoning for agreeing Kyp admitted he couldn't have known that. Poor Kyppie was right but I think for the wrong reason.

Whoops! Sorry, hadn't been sure what you were talking about. But yeah, poor Kyp.

Not a bigger role but a More Supportive Role, not in a few novels but the overall series. That's all I was saying, when I speak English that is.

Yup, Kyp was definitely the most commonly used character in a supporting role. So much so, in fact, that I felt sorry for him. Especially in space battles. All we ever heard of him was when he was "expertly juking between the skips" or something like that. *sighs* Here's this guy who has so much potential as a main, and he's only used as supporting. Such a shame.

 

sporkbewithyou I don't want to burst your bubble, but I think there was an ulterior (don't think that's the right word) motive for that. Take a look at the story line she was dealing with. Jaina's just come back from Myrkyr after having lost both brothers and other friends, and is straddling the line between light and dark, then actually does fall for a short while. Almost no one understands what she's going through except Kyp. Would you portray someone helping someone else through bad times in a less than sympathetic manner? Actually, I think we agree. She did have to write him sympathetically; she had no choice. But she's said that she found things about him to like. But honsetly, compare her Kyp with Denning's. Consider the fact that she could find things about him that humanized him.

Lola- Mentoring Ganner...just about the only thing I liked about him.

DamonD over on the Lit board just summed up my objection to Corran: Of course, if it'll be Stackpole writing about Horn, he'll have Corran saving the galaxy twice before teatime and then giving everyone a good lecture before saving the galaxy a third time just for the hell of it. Then Chapter 2 begins tongue Sorry. I couldn't resist.

 

Actually, I think we agree. She did have to write him sympathetically; she had no choice. But she's said that she found things about him to like. But honsetly, compare her Kyp with Denning's. Consider the fact that she could find things about him that humanized him.

How could you not find things about him to like? He's got to be the coolest character ever created. And of course, I agree with you entirely about the differences in charecterization.

I think I'm going to head off to bed folks, but it was nice having a Kyp filled discssion. Before I go though, I just want to find out what's going to happen with this thread. Are we going to keep it up and have weekly topics and an index and stuff?

 

Just thought I'd delurk and add my two cents.

The awards were fan awards, and I think that more people just identify with Corran than Kyp. Corran is at best, a fair Jedi, and his background isn't anything spectacular. He's just a normal guy who's a really good pilot. Kyp, on the other hand, has a background that even the most sympathetic of people have a hard time coming to terms with, and unlike Corran, there isn't anything normal - and therefore accessible - about Kyp. He was enslaved in a spice mine, was possessed by Exar Kun, and then destroyed a planet all before he was sixteen (or eighteen). And then he was dropped from canon to reappear in the NJO amongst characters that still did not trust him. And if people like Wedge, Mara, and Leia don't trust Kyp, how can the readers? I don't understand exactly why the profic authors do that, but I think it's because Kyp is such a complex character that it's easier for writers to keep him in that gray region, in between heroizing him and villifying him, than to explain him in detail.

And unlike Corran, who has been developed extensively in several novels, all he ever see of Kyp is as a supporting character. Again, Corran is the every day guy who reaches most readers. But how many people can claim to identify with Kyp?

On the Kyp vs. Corran thing, I think their alpha male behavior is getting ridiculous in Dark Nest, and it actually annoys me more than the Jaina/Zekk meld. Regardless of their personal differences, they are still middle-aged Jedi Masters, and I think by now even Kyp has more sense than to Force shove another Master across the room, especially in front of younger Knights and apprentices.

As for Corran, his own naive understanding of the overall situation is also annoying, and if they both don't shape up and become responsible about disagreeing, then they should be melded like J/Z. They'd come to a consensus really quick then.

About the Ithor battle, I personally don't see that as one of Corran's most noble acts, in terms of Jedi actions. He was avenging his friend, which is very noble, but his battle was more of a personal thing. Corran would have fought Shedao Shai even if they were fighting over a Jawa junkyard. That's just the way he is. And ultimately, his battle solved absolutely nothing except to give more time for the Ithorians to evacuate. Worse, Corran, with all his Corsec experience, actually expected the Vong to keep their word though nothing they did implied they would keep their end of the bargain.

*goes back to lurker mode*

 

*drags Inara out of lurker mode* No lurking allowed here if this thread is to live!

The awards were fan awards, and I think that more people just identify with Corran than Kyp. Corran is at best, a fair Jedi, and his background isn't anything spectacular. He's just a normal guy who's a really good pilot. Kyp, on the other hand, has a background that even the most sympathetic of people have a hard time coming to terms with, and unlike Corran, there isn't anything normal - and therefore accessible - about Kyp. He was enslaved in a spice mine, was possessed by Exar Kun, and then destroyed a planet all before he was sixteen (or eighteen). And then he was dropped from canon to reappear in the NJO amongst characters that still did not trust him. And if people like Wedge, Mara, and Leia don't trust Kyp, how can the readers? I don't understand exactly why the profic authors do that, but I think it's because Kyp is such a complex character that it's easier for writers to keep him in that gray region, in between heroizing him and villifying him, than to explain him in detail.

First of all, I'm not sure if it's because they identify with him more. Maybe, if anything, it's because he's been around longer like I said before. Also, Corran is anything but ordinary. Maybe he's not as extraordinary as Kyp is, but he's certainly no "everyman". Here we have someone who follows in the footsteps of his fathers and becomes a great CorSec officer, maybe the one of the best. Then his father dies under extraordinary circrumstances, and he defects to the Alliance, where he happens to be one of the elite pilots and joins an elite squadron. Then you have him finding out that he's the sole heir to a sect of the Jedi long thought dead. Wedge himself said in Wraith Squadron that not everyone will be able to identify with someone like him. He's not human. Kyp, on the other hand, is very human.

I do happen to think that Kyp belongs in the gray area, though I mean thathe shouldn't be portrayed as overly good or overly bad. His entire character would go to pieces if you were to take him to the extremes in this era.

As for the Dark Nest situation......it wasn't as bad as it normally was, at least, in the Unseen Queen they seemed to have reached some sort of uneasy, and probably very temporary truce.

Edit: I think I'll actually be logging off now. See you guys tomorrow!

 

But I like lurking.

I think I need to rephrase what I meant. How I see it is that Corran is an everyman of Star Wars. There are many other characters that have faced similar situations. Wedge, Kyle, Han, Iella, Leia - these are all great chracters that are great like Corran and still understandable. Corran and company are undoubtedly admirable. I don't mean to belittle Corran; in fact, he is one of my favorites, but he has never descended to the depths Kyp has, just as most readers might have had extraordinary situations or abilities but still have fewer moral issues. Kyp is to be admired, but he has to be admired cautiously. He might be more human in his faults, but his faults are not human, if that makes any sense.

But being in the gray area also means he can't ever be like the other Jedi. There isn't anything wrong with being ambiguous, but then we can't complain that people like Corran better than Kyp. Corran is a good guy, an unmistakble hero, but no one is sure about Kyp, and that is why he isn't perceived similarly.

Though I found their interchanges humorous, I still think that they behaved like Jacen and Anakin in the beginning of NJO, except Kyp and Corran were more physical about it. And their truce was shot after the hanger incident.

It's not that I have a problem with them disagreeing, but their actions are distorting the Jedi "mystique," both within the Temple and outside of it. What are their apprentices going to think when their masters are fighting like that?

 

Well sakes alive! This thread took off after I went to bed

Mrs Durron: We're pretty good at amicably disagreeing. I understand though your side. As a Kyp fan I would expect no less from you

One of the things that distressed me about the NJO (which was inevitable, I realize, from its very conception) was the anamolies in character, especially in reference (but by no means limited to) to Kyp. He wasn't extremely well-written with obvoius exceptions (Cunningham and Keyes come to mind). But that was one of the amazing things about the whole situation: Elaine Cunningham has said she didn't like him, and yet she wrote him more sympathetically than just about anyone. Keyes had him doing terrible things, but even then, he made him more real, more human, more sympathetic. Even Denning, who hated him most of all (with exception of Stackpole perhaps), now admits that he has softened in his feelings towards him.

We definitely seem to agree on this matter. Kyp's honestly never been given much of a good shake. Now that Denning has seemed to come around, he's written Kyp rather well when we do get to see him in the Dark Nest Depression...oops! I mean, Series. I was actually nervous when Denning said he liked Kyp because that seems to be the Kiss of Death. What is it with all these authors killing characters they like?

I'm reading everyone else's comments and enjoying them. Well said, all. Not much I can add except to say it's good to see life back over here. Oh, I giggled at Inara's alpha male jab. Good one

 

I love this! Honestly, there?s nothing I love more than a good Kyp debate! Takes me back to the good ole days of the Lit board before SBS came out when all we had to talk about was Kyp.

As someone summed it up: ?Kyp Durron seems to polarize EU fans by his mere existence.?

Okay, sorry about that moment of nostalgia. Back to the discussion at hand.

Yeah, TKL, I?d say we?re pretty much the best at it. I quite enjoy it.

Anyways?my problem with Corran is that not only does he always make the right decision morally, he also always make the mature decision. I find that extremely unrealistic and hard to identify with. I?ve always believed that all people are ?grey characters,? stuck in the area between good and evil that is life. I don?t know.

But another thing that bothers me about him is his grudge against Kyp. I?m not rationalizing what Kyp did or suggesting that after it was all over that everyone should have just forgotten about it immediately. By no means. But he?s spent the last twenty years of his life trying to atone for what he?s done in the only way he knows how: by fighting. Obviously, he takes this to Machiavellian extreme sometimes (I personally agree with Jaina about the worldship), but it?s all he has. It?s all he knows how to do. He doesn?t have any meaningful relationships up till DJ, except for Han, but they don?t even see each other that often. No one trust him. If Luke or Corran or anyone tries to take that away from him, no wonder he would kick back rather violently. I think he was forced to the extreme he was simply because there was no one more extreme than him.

All of this changed with Jaina, of course. For the first time, he had a real relationship (eventually) built on trust and even love. That?s why I appreciate her so much: she took a chance on him despite his reputation and the things that he had done in the past and found out who he really was underneath all of the baggage he carries around. I think through her forgiveness and acceptance of him, he finally began to trust and forgive himself. As a result, he didn?t have to hold on so hard, he could make compromises and attempt to understand other people; whereas before, he always had to be on guard, because he had no one to watch his back, now he can take chances and let people in

This is the main reason I?ve hated the way the books have sort of dropped their relationship recently?almost zero interaction in DN thus far, despite being in the same room on more than one occasion (which is why I wrote my latest viggie). To me it?s one of the most meaningful and interesting of the NJO. They were so much to each other? they changed each other for the better. At this point, it doesn?t even matter to me if they ?end up together? as long as we can see them return to the relationship they had before (a la TKL?s Force Evolution Series, where I think their relationship is perfect).

Oh, and I was as annoyed as Inara about the Kyp/Corran interaction...they really were acting like teenage boys. You've summed it up perfectly. I guess it just shows you that guys never really grow up . Just kidding.

Eck. I spend too much time doing this when I should be doing homework or working on my fics.

 

Actually I loved the alpha male scene. Of course the first time I read it I was cheating by reading ahead so it was out of context. I was like, "What?! Have the Jedi gone nuts!" I interpret Denning's intent to be the use of an extreme to show how far off the correct path the Jedi had fallen. I mean Jaina was telling them all to leave the lightsabers behind. I imagine the air was just electric with sizzling mad Force energy.

Besides, didn't Kyp give Corran as good as he got? "Take that Master Horn, I've got TK powers and you don't!"

 

Inara:But I like lurking.

Don't we all? It is kind of fun too. You get to hear all sorts of stuff.

I don't mean to belittle Corran;

I didn't think you were.

Kyp is to be admired, but he has to be admired cautiously. He might be more human in his faults, but his faults are not human, if that makes any sense.

Actually, that's a pretty good point. I can see what you mean. Being the loose canon Kyp is, you never know if he's going to wind up doing something really horrible that'll pull him down. Though if he falls, he'll have much less of a fall than Corran would if he did.

But being in the gray area also means he can't ever be like the other Jedi.

But that's the thing: Kyp isn't like any other Jedi. No one alive has gone through the trials he has, or learned things as hard and fast. Sure you can say that Luke also had a fall, but he completely overcame it.

Corran is a good guy, an unmistakble hero, but no one is sure about Kyp, and that is why he isn't perceived similarly.

True.

I still think that they behaved like Jacen and Anakin in the beginning of NJO, except Kyp and Corran were more physical about it.

Oh man, I never even thought about that, but you're right.

It's not that I have a problem with them disagreeing, but their actions are distorting the Jedi "mystique," both within the Temple and outside of it. What are their apprentices going to think when their masters are fighting like that?

It's the same problem that used to be between Luke and Kyp. But I think that Corran and Kyp would have enough discretion to keep their fights to themselves.

Tkeira_Lea:Well sakes alive! This thread took off after I went to bed

Isn't that how it always goes?

We definitely seem to agree on this matter. Kyp's honestly never been given much of a good shake. Now that Denning has seemed to come around, he's written Kyp rather well when we do get to see him in the Dark Nest Depression...oops! I mean, Series. I was actually nervous when Denning said he liked Kyp because that seems to be the Kiss of Death. What is it with all these authors killing characters they like?

It's such a shame too, that no other author besides KJA saw it fit to give him a book to call his own. I was actually kind of surprised to see that he hadn't destroyed his character in this series, though he did repeat himself with the descriptions.

I've never been able to understand that phenomena fully, but it does seem to reach its height in fanfiction. What I think is that people like to write about extremely emotional situations, and a character's death allows you to do that.

Would anyone mind kicking off the revival with a challenge? 'Cause I've got an idea.

Edit: I was like, "What?! Have the Jedi gone nuts!" I interpret Denning's intent to be the use of an extreme to show how far off the correct path the Jedi had fallen.

I always skipped ahead to any page that mentioned Kyp. I was also kind of confused about the whole Kyp/Corran deal...as well as what was going on with Omas until I read the whole thing through.

 

Would anyone mind kicking off the revival with a challenge? 'Cause I've got an idea.

*raises hand* Me. Me. I want a Kyp Challenge.

I also look forward to some discussions about Kyp's role in the future series, provided Denning doesn't kill him off in the Swarm War, which as JJD will tell you means a road trip to Wisconsin for the two of us.

 

Lola64:*raises hand* Me. Me. I want a Kyp Challenge.

Whoot! Okay, for those of us interested: Write a vignete (4000 words max) in which Corran and Kyp come to terms with their differences. The viggie CANNOT mention in any way, shape or form the Rogues/Wraiths, Mirax, Valin, Jysella, The Solos or Skywalkers, with the exception of Luke if he's absolutely needed.

Mandatory phrases: a)Old habits die hard and b)"What planet are you from? Kessel?"

Other than that, this is a pretty simple challenge. Not sure if we should post it in this thread, or on the approproate board.

I also look forward to some discussions about Kyp's role in the future series, provided Denning doesn't kill him off in the Swarm War, which as JJD will tell you means a road trip to Wisconsin for the two of us.

*sighs* What do you want to bet that's what he's going to do? But why Wisconsin? Whatever it is, I'm coming with you! ...Not that my mom'll let me...

 

But why Wisconsin

A Star Wars author lives there. You know, the Awful Nested Trilogy guy.

Great challenge btw. I'm in. Hope there'll be other takers.

 

A Star Wars author lives there. You know, the Awful Nested Trilogy guy.

Oooohhhhh....I see! In that case, no one can stop me. If he kills Kyp...

On the flip side, it'd probably be a heroic death if anything.

Great challenge btw. I'm in. Hope there'll be other takers.

Thanks! Me too. I actually think I'll try and whip up something for it too.

 

Lola I also look forward to some discussions about Kyp's role in the future series, provided Denning doesn't kill him off in the Swarm War, which as JJD will tell you means a road trip to Wisconsin for the two of us. tongue Oh, amen. Two angry Kyp chicks...we can totally take him. Though we can always use more help, sporkbewithyou.

Hey...I'm in. That sounds like fun, and will definitely be a challenge for me to write him in a positive light.

[EDIT] Corran, I mean. Not Kyp, obviously.