Romance in our stories - realistic or not? You be the judge

Quite often I wander out of the FanFiction Stories forum wondering about the realism of the fiction that goes on there. Is hyperspace possible? Is a cloaking a ship possible? The Force, what is up with that crazy thing? I question the realism and often wander back to thinking that Star Wars is just a fantasy and things out of the ordinary happen.

However, after the new movie came out this summer I wondered about how we were writing character interactions, more specifically how we express our emotions in our fictions. AOTC is often criticized for being out of context when it comes to romance and how characters express those emotions. It is said that such situations would not actually occur in real life. But Star Wars is not real life, it is fantasy; thus should how we write our fanfictions be fantasy or more real?

Often comments come about of authors not expressing their characters emotions in a realistic way, but rather in a surrealistic way that often is oppressive. Characters act too much like teenagers, and they live their lives so much like their authors. Some say that authors are living out fantasy in their stories and that their fantasies are not so much as Star Wars related but merely related to their own lives. Star Wars is not meant to be pure romance, and all love, but more dynamic and dramatic. Yes, love is dramatic, but they argue that the way it is expressed is in a "picket-fence" way, where everything is perfect and that the emotion is clearly defined. They argue that authors picture a scope of the Star Wars universe that is perfect when in fact nothing in Star Wars is perfect, and nothing falls into place.

Comments also come about how Star Wars is mere fantasy, and that it is not real, nor should the characters expressed Star Wars breaks bounds in science and in scope, so why should it not be the same way in its expression of love and emotion? Yes, characters are allowed to love, and express their emotions in such ways that their heart comes to the surface. They are vulnerable and as deep as we are as human beings, and that expression we feel is are fair game to explore and lengthen. Some would argue that fanfic is the place where the fan has 100% control and that the characters are therefore somewhat bound to what the author wants from them. Given that the characters involved are entire fictional combined with the fact that alternate universes are so fun to explore, is there any harm in that the characters and their situations are sometimes almost too "perfect" to be true? The answer is of course, "No." There's more than a slight element of fantasy to Star Wars, and the fantasy genre is almost a haven for the perfect romance.

What are your opinions? I expressed the opinions I hear quite often as a manager of these forums, and I am interested in hearing what everyone has to say. Be civil, but of course don't be afraid to express opinion.

 

I think that when you're writing about established characters, you should write them in character. I don't want to be too specific, but I recall one story that basically had Amidala hanging around in the GFFA equivalent of a mall and having some equally teeny-bopperish date with Anakin. This didn't strike me as in character for either of them, or as having any correspondence to their respective positions as characters. When were they going to have time to do that again?

On the issue of the dialogue in AotC... this is a genre where people do tend to give sudden speeches declaring their love for one another, often in poetic terms. Anakin at the fireplace was in the tradition of Romeo at the balcony (no, I don't compare the level of the dialogue, but it's the same tone -- romantic, articulate, honest, and passionate). Do real people talk that way? Well... maybe. I don't honestly think that every human being on the planet goes out of his way to avoid formality. I took a creative writing class with a guy in high school who wrote a poem for his girlfriend that began "You belong to Renoir... " and praised her beauty for several lines, then ended with, "And the canvas where you dwell becomes the world." It happens -- there actually are romantics out there. But that's not the point, is it? The issue is the genre, and the particular part of fantasy we're dealing with is courtly love. Courtly love requires behavior like that.

I think that what fantasy does is express truths with all their costumes off (paradoxically, as it's almost always a costume drama). There's no hiding behind cynicism or cluttering things up with irrelevant business... everything counts, eventually, because fantasy is about *meaning*.

 

This is just my opinion, but I believe, whether it is a conscious or unconscious decision, we as authors put a part of our personalities into our writings. I think it is next to impossible to write a person 'in character' 100 percent of the time. This is simply because, in the sense of Star Wars, e are using characters that belong to someone else. So therefore, we can't figure out how George would have Han react. Or Harrison Ford, for that matter.

In regards to romance, I think there is a line- original characters and actual characters from the films. For the sake of accuracy, you can't have Luke start whining like a teenager when he is in his late 40's.

However, if it is an original teenage character, I think the romance can be however you want. Just like how every person is different, each character should react differently as well.

Example: my character Jace would react in a similar way that I would because he is my age. However, since he is a fantasy character, I can stretch the boundaries. I know I can have him say things I would never had the guts or wit to say. Why? Because that's the advantage of fiction.

And going back to the subconscious- I think most of what we say, even if we write a reaction to a situation in a fashion we the author normally wouldn't, I think it is still real. It's like a subconscious knee-jerk reaction. Just because we wouldn't say it in real life, we are still able to think about it, and in a sense, making it realistic.

Anakin and Padme in AOTC is especially overdramatic in a movie sense. In the present day, it would seem like most of those lines would never be said. I would agree. But it is a fantasy film set in a fictional world. So who cares? And I know for a fact that yes, some people would say things like that...I'm one of them, lol.

Everyone has the right to a different opinion. I think as long as the romance scenes and reactions by different characters appease the author, it is succesful and real.

Then again, that may just be me.

excal the protector

 

I agree with Gala 100% (nice to see you again, by the way). The way anyone's character expresses themself should directly reflect on their character. Anakin is a passionate person. Emotionally, Anakin lacks restraint. This is mostly why he turns to the darkside in the first place. He expresses how he feels, and very rarely does he keep his emotions "in check". So, yes, he may have acted quite differently from the way a normal person would have acted, but if Star Wars was based on normal people caught in normal situations, it would have drowned like every reality TV show out there. Sure, maybe the drama of real life is captivating, but only for as long as we don't realize that we can see this drama every day in our own lives.

Fantasy, like just about any other genre, is about escape from the toil of our everyday lives. We don't watch our favorite action hero take six bullets to the chest and then say, "I hope he dies-- it really wouldn't make sense if he lived after that." We find ourselves on the edge of our seat, watching that twitching finger-- the only sign of life-- and whisper, "Come on, get up. Don't let that stop you." And, of course, the hero drags himself to the computer terminal, and successfully stops nuclear missles from tearing apart our humble planet.

Of course, that "hero" would have died after one, maybe two bullets. The fact of the matter is, no one cares about reality. We leave that to when we step out of the theatre. We want to believe, if only for 2 hours, that we can be more than just Plain Joe/Jane. That's what it's all about.

The same goes for Romance. Sure, most of us wouldn't make such daring moves that Anakin did, but hey, we aren't Anakin, are we?

 

Well it does depend how emcompassing a story should be. In the spirit of the SW Movies then the emotions can be as monotone as the special effects because it is the Story and the Action we are more concerned about, or however one looks at SW. For me it's drama, and drama is a very broad definition.

After seeing the movies that were made in last 20 years, special effects don't mean a thing for me if there is no story. Eye-candy can only take you so far, the character direction and story and story telling ultimately has to help one complete the journey.

However since the Boards is not a visual medium but a written one, with no pictures except in links and no moving images unless someone wants to waste the time doing that, we're forced, no choice, to give character to our characters, even the ones that are established; it STILL wouldn't hurt to let Natilie Portman act btw (And in a year, this will be a topic in what went wrong with AOTC when the euphoria wears off.).

With us it is an extension of what we feel, and with established characters it is based on our interpetation of said character. I said it in a thread before not too long ago that the greatest insult to SW fans was letting different writers write out the established characters in the Expanded Universe.

Which I must say once again to lead the charge along with a few other JCers here:

NO MORE WHIMPY LUKE! GIVE US QUALITY LUKE!

There, I said it!

Anyways this is a bit of a catch 22; if we rely on what has been written, and therefore ruined by pro writers, are we just continuing the ruination of GL's creations? Do we adopt that 'Ugh' feeling, or do we employ and interject our own perceptions of how we see those characters.

I alway say the safe bet is go with the movies when it comes to establish characters; the authors have really did damage to characterization in the EU because you had 20 authors that had 20 different interpetations of Mara Jade (for example).

Personally I would like to see realistic, or as close to realistic as possible. First of all it can be a writer's challenge and for me the challenge is what makes the writing fun.

Secondly you do avoid insulting the intelligence of the audience, your readership; remember to balance between sophistication and simplicity.

Third: FEELINGS! Even in the GFFA there is something called emotions. EXPRESS THEM! (And no, Padme does not have to be in that tight butt mode all the time, but be smart about it unless you are making a joke about her in a humor thread.)

Four: it is possible, because I'm doing it now, to have a romance theme intermixed into an action/adventure/drama/humor/etc and so forth story; it doesn't have to dominate the story per se, and it doesn't have to be worthless in the back ground either. It's there, it's a tool of storytelling, use it!

 

I don't think I can express my ideas with any of the quality or clearness, that other people have but I shall try.

Romance is tricky. As a writer and a role-player, I have to deal with romance all the time (imagine a group of role-players that enjoy soap and drama more then hack and slash gaming). Sometimes romance can be formal and hard to deal with, sometimes people do the whole "I love you more then the sun, the moon and the stars!" thing, other times it is gradual and slow. Romance is hard to put into writing because the feelings that people have are sometimes so subtle that they themselves don't know what is going on. It makes it hard for the writer because sometimes you do want to make it obvious to the readers. I've had readers go 'huh? How did that happen?" When two of my characters fall in love, after what seems to me to be a visible build up of feelings. That is why sometimes the dodgy romance lines come into play. What I mean to say is that because people do use those kinds of lines in real life it becomes perfectly acceptable to use them in fiction, as long as they are not the only thing that shows that the two characters are in love.


I also just want to expand on other points that people have brought up. I too see characters as the extension of the author. In my experiance people often build characters that portray something they feel is lacking about themselves (be it good or bad). Alternatively some people build characters which help them deal with an issue that has happened in their life. As the character deals with that issue so does the writer. However, just because a character takes after the author doesn't mean it they become a 'Mary Sue'. In fact more often then not I see people using canon characters as 'Mary Sue' type characters who managed to save the day.

Sometimes characters do end up acting like teenagers high on sugar, but as a teenage author (or at least I started four years ago on this board as a very teenage author) sometimes it is hard to write people who are older then you. Simply because you aren't them, you have a limited scope of experiance to write from, therefore older characters either become much older or way too young.

I think that writing canon characters is very hard, and something that I, personally, try to stay away from because I KNOW I can't get their description down pat. I don't know how they are going to act because they aren't my character, they aren't a figment of my imagination. If I were to write that character, I would end up giving them some of my traits and personality (simply so I would know how they were going to act). But if I did that then they wouldn't be *that* character anymore. Maybe it is just me and my writing ability, but that is often what I find as being the problem with canon characters.

Just as another point, and diverging slightly off topic, I am often amused when I see Jedi characters played as ineffectual people (Yes, I will admit I'm guilty of this too ). It is something that my boyfriend has pointed out to me many times as being odd. The thing that he pointed out was that people write these characters as being hopeless and pathetic and always needing someone else around to care for them, when instead they really should be strong and disciplined (remember they've been basically trained from birth). Sometimes they really do act like teenagers at the mall, however after saying all that many people still write them as the disciplined calm people they really ought to be.

Okay, I think I've said enough, I only hope that came across clearly enough.

Kit

 

There's more than a slight element of fantasy to Star Wars, and the fantasy genre is almost a haven for the perfect romance.

And because of this, I don't think the romance has to be perfect, but it does need to be grand. As someone who has been accused often (and accurately) of wearing his heart on his sleeve, I find the sudden declarations of profound love appealing. And as JG said, despite the moans of the teenaged boys in the theater, Anakin's heartfelt, passionate outpouring in the fireplace scene was true to both his character and the SW saga in general. Anakin and Padme's love brings down a galaxy - it needs to be sudden, unexpected, and almost out of control. It wouldn't fit if it were a more realistic, gradual buildup of feelings that you normally associate with RL courtship.

And I think that's what a lot of us come here to read. Why would we want to read about teenaged Jedi finding soda fountain romance at the GFFA mall when we can go down to our RL mall and see that every day?

 

There's more than a slight element of fantasy to Star Wars, and the fantasy genre is almost a haven for the perfect romance.

And because of this, I don't think the romance has to be perfect, but it does need to be grand. As someone who has been accused often (and accurately) of wearing his heart on his sleeve, I find the sudden declarations of profound love appealing. And as JG said, despite the moans of the teenaged boys in the theater, Anakin's heartfelt, passionate outpouring in the fireplace scene was true to both his character and the SW saga in general. Anakin and Padme's love brings down a galaxy - it needs to be sudden, unexpected, and almost out of control. It wouldn't fit if it were a more realistic, gradual buildup of feelings that you normally associate with RL courtship. >>

Right, with the backstory in A/A's situation...of course, he's had 10 years of thinking about her, in that case. Also, some of it is inherently limited by the fact that GL only had 2 hours to film a great deal of plot content, and the speed at which the romance developed was, in that respect, necessary.

As for formal speech and Anakin...just listen to Vader's phrasing.

-Tim

 

Well, I have to admit that I'm guilty of this. I write primarily NJO stories, and at the beginning I wrote romances in order to counteract the amount of death and suffering in the series. I managed to get readers that way, but it wasn't until a casual reader remarked to me that one of my characters seemed like a Disney princess that I really took a step back and looked at what I was writing.

A lot of it was terribly unrealistic, even for Star Wars - after all, when you look at the major canon couples, Leia/Han, Padme/Anakin, you see that they all have problems. Leia and Han, no matter how perfect for each other, fought and bickered constantly, and as Lothi so eloquently put it, Padme and Anakin brought down a galaxy with their romance because it was forbidden. And yet, here I was writing stories that essentially ended with "and they lived happily ever after."

And we all know that even in the galaxy far, far away, that's never the case.

So I turned to angst in romance, which, naturally, has its place in literature as well as Star Wars. But even this can be romanticized beyond the point of reality. As Marianne stated in the movie version of Sense and Sensibility (it's been so long since I read the book that I don't remember if it was in the book), "To die for love? What could be more glorious?" is often the attitude that we see in the stories that take the opposite of the fairy tale approach.

But neither approach is really correct. I've discovered that a great deal of the realism involved has to do with the characters involved. With Anakin, the sudden outpouring of emotion was in character, no matter how cheesy we thought it in the theatre. With Luke and Mara, the slow transition from enemies to lovers was in character for them. With a couple who are thrown together in the midst of a war, cuteness might be appropriate, as it's a reaction to all the pain and suffering around them. It all comes down to characterization in the long run.

Mel

 

How to write romance, and to determine if it is realistic is a very diffcult thing to do. Because so much of it depends of the characters. Ok, so Anakins sudden profoud declaration of love mave have seemed a little over the top and intense. But if you think about it, Anakins whole character is pretty over the top, and you'd have to blind a deaf not to realize how intensely his character feels every little thing. This explains why their romance progressed so quickly.

Some people say that no one in real life feels that strongly about everything. I can say for a fact that there really are people who feel everything very intensely. I know, because I am one of them. All my friends and family have mentioned how I'm either really happy or really sad, or if I get upset I get really upset. If I either like someone, or I don't. There aren't many people I simply tolerate. So if I was a character in a story, it is highly likely that if I fell in love, I would fall quick, and I would fall hard.

But of course not everyone is this way. So just like in real life, how a character express's their emotions, and everything else in their character depends compltely of that characters personality. You also have to take in to consideration that both he is young. He might not have fallen so head over heels if he was older.

So Anakins reaction, was intirly realistic, for him. Or for someone with a simular personality.

But on the other hand, could you see Han Solo saying something like that to Leia? Probably not. He's not quite that frank about his feelings, to himself or anyone else. He's just not as comfortable with his own emotions. But he can also control them better then Anakin. But that could have something to do with the fact he is quite a but older then Anakin. And even if he did tell Leia he loved her in a simular way. He would definitly phrase it differnt. He simply doesn't speak as formally as Anakin.

But of course that doesn't mean he doesn't love Leia as much as Anakin loves Padme, they just express themselves differntly.


So with any character, weither the romance is realistic or not depends entirly on the personality of that character.

Another thing to think about when writing or reading romance in star wars, it is fantasy, not real life. We don't want to read about everyday little romances, we want drama, we want it bigger then life. Romance in this type of genre no matter the character, should always be true love, pure love, deep love. Not casual fling. But that doesn't mean the characters always get along perfectly, I mean, look at Han and Leia?

And it doesn't mean it always ends perfectly happily, we don't want to turn star wars into disney after all. Anakin and Padme's love ended in tragedy, but above all they loved eachother.

So, that is what is important in romance writing, make sure its in character, and that above all, they characters love eachother truely and deeply.

Ok, I've been rambling on, sorry about that. Hope I made some kind of sense.

 

I believe in the philosophy of less is more, and that understatement is the best way to write a story and the characters within it, unless either is intended to be intentionally overstated. Too much informality and psuedo-realism is a major turn-off for me, and I'll generally stop reading a story if I see too much of that. I think a mature, somewhat formal tone is the best way to write a love story.

 

The thing that always struck me about the fantasy genre is that characters are more archetypes than individuals. You have the earnest hero, the wise mentor, the rogue, the fool, the fair maiden, the evil villain ... and the list goes on.

Now to prove my point on that, what was I thinking of when I made that list? Star Wars? Lord of the Rings? The Arthurian legend? It could have been any one.


Now while these character types have practically become standards, I'm often disappointed that the situations they find themselves in have also become almost standardized. Those who scoff at fanfic and the people who write it often seem to lead with the charge that the authors are lovelorn misfits who write about the romances that they imagine but don't actually have.

Of course I strenuously disagree with that assessment, but after reading TSL's initial post I can't help but wonder whether the way fanfic is sometimes presented leads to such derision.

Given that we're all writing about Star Wars, some things are naturally assumed. Any randomly selected story can be expected to have spaceships, battles, and mystical Force powers. But, are the romantic situations almost as predictable? Are the hero and heroine always seemingly destined by fate to be together?

When you read a new story and the male and female main characters are introduced, are you instantly able to safely assume that by the end of the story they'll be in love and living happily ever after as the perfect couple? (Those who read my stuff will know that I've been guilty of this myself.)

In short, is fanfic romance too predictable?

 

In short, is fanfic romance too predictable?

This is a very good question. In most fanfics, it is so. Sometimes it's pulled off well, the author shows a realistic development to the relationship, maybe throws in a couple of plot twists to make the story not-so-predictable. But I wouldn't read and like a romance story where the main male and female are introduced, thrown together into one scene, they instantly fall in love, and they spend the rest of the fic expressing their love for each other (and eventually get married at the end). This kind of romance is cheesy, and unrealistic. Every relationship needs development, every romance has its ups and downs. Romance should not be one dimensional. It must have depth. Otherwise it will be just a cheap soap opera-like mush with no point other than mush itself.

 

It must have depth. Otherwise it will be just a cheap soap opera-like mush with no point other than mush itself.

One of the key elements in a lot of fanfiction throughout fanfiction's surprisingly long history is "mush." The people writing stories often want to live out their emotional fantasies through their writing, and the readers often want that "ahhh" or "aawwww" response to what they are reading. Often, fanfiction writers have to struggle to break the conventions, and readers often react with a bit of dissappointment when the rug is yanked out from under them. I, as an author, had to struggle against my own romantic desires in making the romance in one of my stories completely fall apart. My heart wanted everything to wind up "happily ever after," but my mind refused to allow it. In the end, it was hard to let the paths of the two lovers diverge, just as it is hard in real life to watch the one you love simply walk away on their own path while you follow another. We write what we know and feel; and unfortunately, since most of us want our romantic lives to work out the way we planned, we put that in our fiction, mushy or not.

Okay, I've rambled, but that's my two cents.

 

The people writing stories often want to live out their emotional fantasies through their writing, and the readers often want that "ahhh" or "aawwww" response to what they are reading

I must be odd, then. I prefer subtle/quiet and understated versions of that. "Mush" is usually a turnoff, unless it's done with particular care. That's partly because it's not realistic very often, as you more or less said. In writing a story, I think a way to be successful is to turn anything that seems cliche or run of the mill and make something original out of it. Change the characters, what they do or something into a new perspective.

 

I think it depends on what sort of story you're telling. Obviously, if the whole point of the story is "Will they fall in love?" then you don't want them falling in love in the first reel. But if the question is "Will their love survive?" or better yet "How will their love survive?" (more interesting questions, imho), then yes, you want them to just get that part over with and get on with the story. I don't mind if they spend quite awhile expressing their love to one another, as long as they're kicking around nexus and Sith lords while they're doing it, if you get what I'm saying.

But, are the romantic situations almost as predictable? Are the hero and heroine always seemingly destined by fate to be together?

I would have to say yes to this. All romances are predictable -- I managed to choke down three Harlequins before deciding that I simply couldn't make money that way -- and the major difference in fantasy, imho, is that fantasy just accepts that and makes the very predictability part of the fabric of the universe. It's predictable because it's destined, because everything in the story has meaning, because the purpose of including two halves of a soul in a story is to reunite them and make them whole. All the pieces in the puzzle fit. Ergo, when the hero and heroine meet, they must fall in love. It may end tragically or eucatastrophically (not merely happily ever after, but joyously ever after), but certain things must happen -- the profession of feelings, the first kiss, the sacred marriage, etc.

I've tried in the past to defy SW conventions in various stories--to deny redemption to someone who longs for it in "Outer Rim," particularly--and I've found that it won't be done. Trying to force the story into a determination to break convention just made it brittle and unwriteable, and the characters refused to play along with me. It became purely a question of "the author wants to do it, so there!" rather than an organic story growing out of root beliefs and mythic symbols. So I scrapped where I was going, re-wrote the end, and came up with a redemption scene that I'm actually proud of. By the same token, a fairy tale/fantasy/mythic romance may survive some catastrophic event (eg, Osiris being chopped into little pieces that Isis had to gather up), but it can't survive mundane silliness being inserted. It is no longer true to itself when that happens, and when a story starts lying, it's time to scrap it. And, paradoxical or no, the closer a fairy tale romance comes to "reality," the further it has travelled from "Truth."

If that makes sense...

 

In short, is fanfic romance too predictable?

Interesting question. It many cases yes, but is it really more a question of giving the audience what the writer and author think they want. Do we want to read stories where the couple walk off into the sunset because real life doesn't always work that way? There is certainly a large readershiip for it. On the other hand, I was looking at AFI's list of 100 most romantic movies, and I found it telling that four of the top five films did not end in happily ever after. It seems the most memorable romance stories are those in which the couple is separated by circumstance, their love real but made impossible in some way or another. We don't see that very often in fan fic.
They were:
Casablanca
Gone with the Wind
West Side Story
Roman Holiday
An Affair to Remember

 

Ah, but the two of those that I've seen (GWTW, WSS) are both quite predictable--tragic, but predictable. Did anyone doubt when Tony and Maria met that they would fall in love? In fact, that they would fall in love in their first scene and spend the rest of the movie expressing that love? Did anyone entertain serious doubts that Scarlett and Rhett are meant to be together (well, aside from Scarlett and Rhett, which is part of the ritual)? That the couples are split in the end doesn't make their coming together any less pre-ordained. From what I know of Casa and Affair, that's true in those cases as well.