Senate Russia: its impact on the world, its invasion of Ukraine, and its future

He already survived poisoning I wouldn’t be shocked if Putin personally makes sure he dies

 

Depressingly, thats probably accurate

 

It’s also possible he realized no matter where he went Putin would come for him. If Putin can kill people in the UK he can kill people anywhere. So he wanted to do it on his own terms

 

Putin does not care at all about him and neither do the majority of the Russians. I would even not be surprised if he staged his poisoning.
The western media should rather care about what this guy stands for and what political positions he has.
Totally independent on what people think about Putin - This guy and especially people with such a political position should not be supported in any way.

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/5-things-you-need-to-know-about-alexei-navalny/
You can google plenty of articles. Some (non russian) also call him a notorious liar.
Most Russians I know see him as a far right nationalist and a racist.

 

That’s straight up Russian propaganda “most Russians you know” are either wittingly or unwittingly parroting. Navalny’s positions show him to be a pretty standard European liberal, with democratic socialist undertones. Absolutely not a “far right nationalist” or a “racist” as far as anyone who actually knows him is aware.

And please be careful with spreading lies about his poisoning. It is known with nearly 99% certainty that Navalny was poisoned on Putin’s orders. Suggesting that he “may have staged his poisoning” is doing the work of the Kremlin’s propaganda machine. It’s the kind of lie that lays the groundwork for Russians to shrug at his killing, if he ends up being executed.

“Knowing Russians” gives you zero authority here. I know tons of Russians, and none of them believe the propaganda you’ve presented here. But I don’t rely on the anecdotes of friends. The proof is in the public record and in the investigations. Navalny was poisoned on the Kremlin’s orders, and he’s not even close to being a “far right nationalist.”

 

Maybe, but the one's I spoke to have that opinion. Some of them even called him a weirdo. I don't say that they are right or not.

Yes, even politica and e.g. the atlantic see him close to far right nacionalists. Have you ever heard what he said about the people from Georgia?
I dare to say you have zero idea what he said or did or for what he got arrested but you love him because someone told you he against Putin

I say what I want - and I tell you some secret

Spoiler

Putin himself put the Novichok in his underpants

You mean similar to the US propaganda machine that all Venezuela loves Guaido.

Politico is rather not doing Propaganda

"People aren't really afraid of my views, they are just afraid of the word nationalism" Navalny
"Crimea is seized, it is ours" Navalny
He repeatedly called Georgians rodents and that they should be bombed with cruise missiles
Yes, he is truly a moderate leftist

in addition a quite good article here
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-16057045

 

If we were talking about Navalny in 2011-2012, I would agree with you completely. As he took on some ethnonationalist viewpoints for political expediency. But he has since changed his tune quite a bit, emphasizing the “social” elements, rather than the ethnic elements, of his brand of Russian “nationalism.” He is far from the ideal opposition figure, in my view, given my anti-nationalist and left leanings. But I chalk that up to the enormously difficult - almost impossible - task of staging successful opposition to Putin, one of the strongest dictators on the world stage. So I see a lot of political realism in Navalny’s past (and some of his current) positions, that is unfortunate.

That said, he has moved away from any hard right and racist views of past coalitions he was in, and towards what I understand are his actual political convictions, which are a pretty standard mix of liberalism and European democratic socialism.

In short, I see his Russian nationalist reputation as simply a facade in order to even stand a chance against Putin. Sad, but I tend to cut Russian opposition leaders a little slack given how under threat they are. After Putin’s gone, though, I would prefer someone other than Navalny to lead the country. Someone with less of a Russian nationalist background, and more of a Europe-leaning approach.

P.S. Notice that nowhere did I claim to “love Navalny” - words you couldn’t resist putting in my mouth. He is a deeply flawed opposition leader. What I did say, though, is that your characterization of him has no nuance, is based on long-changed positions, and is consistent with Kremlin propaganda.

 

Yes, whatever.
He is a nationalist moron that should not be supported just because he is against Putin.

 

I read the breaking reports about his arrest yesterday. Saw the pic of him with his wife right before he got arrested. That's just devastating.

 

1. Do not put words in my mouth.

2. Don’t ever alter the content of my posts without using the strike-through function to muse it clear that you have altered them.

3. In my view, supportin legitimate democratic opposition to Putin is worth it, even if the lead opposition figure isn’t a perfect liberal and has held some crappy views in the past.

4. I don’t believe you’ve ever had to survive being a political opponent of a popular dictator. In which case, I wouldn’t expect you to understand how difficult and “gray” a process it might be to do so in Putin’s Russia.

5. I wish someone other than Navalny was the main opposition figure, but I think it’s worth supporting him for now, as he’s one of the the few credible threats to Putin’s grip on power, and has significantly altered his nationalist views of the past.

6. The talking points you’ve put forward are also similar to the talking points the Kremlin put forward against opponents of Russian influence in Ukraine - they were all labeled right-wing fascists. It’s typical and easily spotted. Navalny has said a few ****** ethnonationalist things, but in the last eight years he’s presented a pretty typical liberal/ democratic socialist platform, with a thin veneer of Russian nationalism (and downplaying the ethnic element of that nationalism, which I find abhorrent).

Go ahead and turn all that into “blah, blah, blah” in your head. But don’t do it again in this thread.

 

You are the kind of guy that would also support Bin Laden against Russia or ISIS against Assad. Got it

If you join and colaborate with Nazis then people will say that you collaborate with Nazis.

He is a racist nationalist.

 

Okay, wow, those pics are pretty damning. I know next to nothing about it, only about his poisoning on the plane earlier last year.

 

Now you’re equating Navalny with hardcore terrorist organizations like ISIS and Al Qaeda?

Nevermind. Thought an adult conversation was going to be possible. Putin apologism is definitely not a dying art, though. It’s alive and well.

What pictures? That’s not Navalny.

This is an interesting example of how propaganda spreads though.

 

How do you call someone who called to expell certain groups of people from the russian territory? Moderate liberal opposition?

With you obviously not

@I Are The Internets
I was directly referring to the statement of "the Ukrainian Nazis were just propaganda"

Don't be a demagogue

 

No, Putin has labeled all opposition to Russian influence in Ukraine, including opposition to the invasion of Crimea and eastern Ukraine, as made up solely of right-wing fascists. This obviously wasn’t true, given the pro-EU liberal parties that were a major part of that opposition. Putin’s, RT’s and Sputnik’s main strategy for justifying everything from Russia’s seizure of Ukrainian territory to its jailing and poisoning of political opponents has been to...simply write them all off as fascists. And I was pointing out the absurdity of that. While you’ve been simply...going along with it. Hook, line and sinker. I’ve rarely witnessed that level of complete embrace of obvious propaganda. It’s pretty breathtaking.

 

I don't care what Putin did. McCain and others went directly into the worst fascists and nazis and called it propaganda when being called out for that.
If I call myself a democrat then these kind of scum would not even get close to me and my democratic political activities. Such pictures are the fault of the ones who are on such pictures and not the fault of the troll that utilizes it for his propaganda. It's the same with Trump and his far right buddies. If he is not a far right racist then such people will not stand next to him. Period.

Btw. Navalny cheered when the Crimea was annexed

 

When did McCain enter into this discussion? We were talking about Putin’s lie that all opposition to his aggression in Ukraine was made up of fascists. And that’s just not true. McCain messing up has nothing to do with the falsity of Putin’s message.

And why “don’t you care” what Putin says or does? It’s like ignoring the worst person in the room just because...he’s always the worst. Just let him be the worst? Let him get away with being the worst?

Putin is much worse than Navalny, is the basic point. And Russia needs opposition to Putin in order to progress and become more democratic. Navalny is currently the most credible threat to Putin’s lock on power, but hopefully other more liberal and less nationalist figures are waiting in the wings, and are ready to start making waves. I think the next few years are important in that respect. And I have some hope that opposition will broaden well beyond Navalny.

And for the record, my main concern in life right now is the belief that far-right ethnonationalist political power needs to be smashed at the polls worldwide. And needs to be legally smashed when they start promoting anti-democratic and violent change, as we’ve seen in the US recently. So your attempts to put me into some kind of corner for the far right is pretty ridiculous. My original point stands. Navalny has held some objectionable views in the past, but he’s evolved significantly and is one of the few current Russian figures that presents a credible challenge to Putin. Hopefully that field of opposition broadens significantly after his arrest, and we see more liberal candidates come out of the woodwork. If people don’t stop fearing Putin, his influence won’t wane until he croaks. And most Russians I know don’t want to wait that long...

ETA: In the end, I don’t think we’re that far away from each other politically. Not at all. I just believe, perhaps more strongly than you do, that Putin must be challenged soon if Russian democracy is to return in this century. That some of his opposition are less than perfect is a serious issue to me, but I do believe when dealing with popular dictatorships, one needs to recognize that some level of political realism will enter the calculus of those trying to build a credible opposition.

 

You brought the Ukraine topic into this discussion not me. Where did Putin say all Ukraine opposition was fascist? Do you have a link or an article?
Russia was pissed that their puppet was gone and got fired up about almost everything.
As far as I remember not only Russia but also Europe was highly concerned because of the Nazis that showed up on the political stage like on the McCain pic above.
And yes, if a huge crowd with Nazi flags walks through the capitol of a 40 million plus country calling for a nuclear bombs on ethnic minorities (e.g. Tymochenko) I am concerned as well. I don't need Putin for that. We saw what happened in Bosnia and such terrible things can actually happen even today.

 

I don’t disagree with any of that. I’m not really sure what we’re disagreeing about, to be honest.

Probably just a minor point about Navalny’s views having changed a lot since 2012.

 

He is a racist nationalist.

 

But yea his views were not the best I don’t know if you linked anything @Darth Smurf but here is a good article on it and not a Russian source since I ain’t trusting that

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/278186/

 

Which is why he banned him from running for office in the recent election and then replaced him with a candidate that was friends with Putin and deliberately ran a campaign to lose?