Saga-city Lodge - CYN & Tim's retreat for Star Wars Purists - Heads up, new topic, 4/24

Tara: Don't wory, I'm only 23.

Wow...so glad to see lots of people coming to the thread, many who I know, and many who I don't, or know only by reputation.

-Tim

 

Be 18 forever? SHUDDER! NO NO NO NONONO

I would never want to be a teenager again. It was traumatizing enough the first time. Now, the twenties were very much fun, the thirties were busy but fun, and 40 years = 1.26+ billion seconds. Life starts when you leave home and get out on your own.

 

I wonder sometimes if the preference for the movies or the books has to do with where you "discovered" SW initially. My first experience with it was ROTJ, although I was too young to remember much more than being terrified by Darth Vader. And I saw the OT SE before I discovered that there were SW books. On the other hand, Melyanna came to SW through the EU - her first experience with it was reading one of the books (VOTF, Mely?) while she was in the hospital and getting hooked from there.

Part of it for me, too, is that since movies are an audio/visual medium, they can really capture the grandeur of the story in a way that books can't sometimes. But a truly well-written fic - Cyn's Like Tears in Rain comes to mind here - can evoke powerful visual images as well.

 

Someone else COULD pose a question, you know! This is, after all, meant to be an open forum.

Um....I thought I had, but I didn't realize it was one that could or would be slapped down with a one-word answer. Fair enough.

Here is another question, then, which I have debated endlessly over the years with various people without ever coming to a complete meeting of the minds.

The concept of the Force is central to the Star Wars saga. Because of the elements of the story that are known to us all, we commonly refer to "The Light Side" of the Force, generally thought to be upheld by the Jedi, and the "Dark Side", thought to be the domain of the Sith. I can't tell you how many stories I have read in which these different aspects of some kind of a universal energy are treated as completely separate, almost unconnected things.

So I ask you - based on your understanding of the Saga stories, does the Dark Side have its own will/agenda? Or is it a subset of that universal energy that Obi-Wan first described to Luke in ANH (see quote on my sig). And now that I'm at it, what is "The will of the Force", anyway?"

 

Not sure if this is the type of question you were looking for Cyn , but I watched AOTC late last night and something got me to thinking. I'd be interested to get some different views on it. The conversation between Mace and Yoda in which the following is said.

" I think it is time to inform the Seante that our ability to use the Force has diminished."

" Only the Dark Lords of the Sith know of our weakness," Yoda replied. "If informed the Senate is, multiply our adversaries will."

Are we to take that as meaning that the Sith and the Darkside are stronger? Why exactly are the Jedi unable to sense what is going on? Any thoughts?

 

Oh, dear, I was hoping this would be a place where we DIDN'T have to discuss/debate the EU, and it's started again.

I've read a few of the books and got them from the library so the only thing I wasted was my time, thank heaven. Half of them I didn't bother to finish. They might have been SF, but they weren't Star Wars.

I am curious, to my fellow authors, has the avid popularity of the EU/NJO prevented you from wanting to write stories based in the post-Saga time frame? If there had been no books, and you really had the freedom to write post-Saga adventures without the EU/NJO influence, where would you have gone with them?

 

Cyn - I, too, am sick of the bashing and general mood of some of the threads. And, although you and I often don't agree...LOL, I also believe in the IDIC (darn if I can remember the exact phrasing any more - it's been a long time! Infinite diversity in infinite combinations, I believe). Yes, I'm also a Trekkie (have been since it first appeared in glorious black-and-white (at least on my tv set) way back in the stone-age days).
Jedi_Satimber - Yep, this is where I hang out. I was surprised to see you here. Cyndy's floating around somewhere. And I'm glad that I'm not alone in liking EU and NJO...

Okay, I have a small question for the purists. If you only include the movies (and JA for Cyn), do you also include the deleted scenes? I always think about the Wormie scenes at Anchorhead and Luke/Biggs scenes on Tatooine as being part of the pure SW even though they don't appear in the final film mix. And, then of course, there is the original versus special editions....LOL.

 

Hmmm...I don't the Dark Side has a separate agenda, if you will. I tend to think of it as a separate interpretation of the Force - like the notion of a vengeful God vs a loving God. And as we know from reading the Bible, God has shown both sides of his personality from time to time.

Another way I look at it is that those who use the Dark Side tend to view the Force as a tool, something that can be used for their own gain. The Jedi, on the other hand, view the Force as an ally, something to be respected, communed with, and studied. It's a way of life, as opposed to a job. IOW, how the Force "exists" for you depends on the way you view and use it.

Not the most coherent explanation, I guess. I may have more after my "honey-do" list for the day is complete.

EDIT: Agh! So many questions, so little time! Mistress Renata, to make it quick, I'd would have like to have seen much more of Luke's exploration of his past, and his development as a Jedi and eventually as a Jedi Master. Diane - I include the deleted scenes, mostly because I believe they were deleted more due to time constraints for the movies than anything else.

 

I am curious, to my fellow authors, has the avid popularity of the EU/NJO prevented you from wanting to write stories based in the post-Saga time frame?

Personally ,although I love the OT films, I have never had any real interest in the characters beyond the movies. Not really sure why but it has just never caught my attention. As far as what I write, if it doesn't include Obi-Wan then I am unable to find inspiration.

 

I am curious, to my fellow authors, has the avid popularity of the EU/NJO prevented you from wanting to write stories based in the post-Saga time frame? >>

Hmm. Well, to be honest, most of my ideas have been PT or OT related, though Lothi and I have talked about doing a collaborative story about Kyp and Luke taking place at the end of the Jedi Academy Trilogy. However, there's also no reason that just because a story takes place after ROTJ, it must in any way relate to the present EU.

However, if I ever write a Jaina/anybody or Luke/Mara fic, please, have me committed, because someone's taken over the real Tim....

EDIT: Will reply to Geo's question soon.

-Tim

 

So I ask you - based on your understanding of the Saga stories, does the Dark Side have its own will/agenda? Or is it a subset of that universal energy that Obi-Wan first described to Luke in ANH (see quote on my sig). And now that I'm at it, what is "The will of the Force", anyway?"


Well, I actually use a different definition of what you are asking.
I look at it like this:
Light Side is the good people, using their abilities to help people, but to not use absolute power to offer help.
Dark Side is people who are inately good, but have a thirst for power, and will use that power for their own good. But generally will not be abusive.
Sith Lords are evil people, who use their powers to destroy and for their own good. Generally, there is no "good" in them.

" I think it is time to inform the Seante that our ability to use the Force has diminished."

" Only the Dark Lords of the Sith know of our weakness," Yoda replied. "If informed the Senate is, multiply our adversaries will."

Are we to take that as meaning that the Sith and the Darkside are stronger? Why exactly are the Jedi unable to sense what is going on? Any thoughts?

It's more like this: Knowing that there can only be 2 Sith Lords at a time; Master & Apprentice, Yoda knew that if the Senate became aware that the Jedi could not see everything anymore...there would be some that would betray them.
Meaning that some of their powerful allies, could very well become their enemies.

 

Lothi - yep, it was VotF, though I was on a very long car trip, not in the hospital. It wasn't really my first exposure to SW. My brother was crazy about SW and had been since he was a really little kid, and that kind of turned me off. But I'd seen all the films by that point.

geo's question:

I don't see the Force as having sides at all. Those who deal with the Force have given actions labels like dark side or light side, but the Force is one. Whether you're being influenced by the dark side or the light side is determined by your actions - are you abusing your power for your own selfish ends, or are you doing good and using your power to serve others? The dark side of the Force that lures some like Anakin is the temptation to use the Force improperly, and it clouds things because you're getting what you want and (sometimes) what you think is right, but the result cannot compensate for the methods you've used.

Mel

 

Damn, damn, damn! So many lovely questions, so little time.

First of all, Geo, I didn't mean to slap down your question. Sorry if I gave that impression because, on second thought, there may well be some component of generational difference, having to do with Lothi's point about first exposure. I saw ANH - which was then known simply as Star Wars in the theater, in first release - and - I'm shamed to admit - at the insistence of my oldest son, who simply would NOT take no for an answer; I didn't want to go. I had been a sci-fi lover all my life - and had seen very little evidence that ANY 'space opera' movie was going to spark my interest. Obviously, I was dead wrong. But the point is that, for me, the movies - and my lifelong hero-worship for that Kenobi character - came first. It was - again quoting Lothi - a very visual experience. And I'm not entirely sure that the books ever quite lived up to my hopes that they would equal the films in grabbing my attention and holding on for dear life. I read them in the first place, because A.) I read any- and everything. Voracious doesn't even begin to cover it. My children claim that they hope they never need to move back in with me, because there's no room for them; there are books everywhere. And B.) because I hungered for MORE SW - and more - and more. But they never provided what I sought.

But - if I had come to the genre from the other side - like Mely - I might feel differently. I might identify the GFFA with the portraits painted in the novels, rather than the films - and, in that sense, perhaps there IS an element of generational difference.

Now - as to the question about the lightside and darkside of the Force - and which is stronger - WOW! No lightweight stuff for us, is there? But that's totally cool. If we'd wanted fluff, there's plenty of sites to visit - and the question I intend to pose later is about as dark as they come.

The thing that has confused me, ever since the opening of TPM, is Qui-Gon's remark about "the will of the Force". Until that moment, I never even considered that the Force would have a will - which implies sentience and intent. I thought of the Force as an energy source, generated by living beings, much like oxygen is generated by plants - and lightside and darkside as being defined not by the Force itself - but by the purpose for which it was used and the person doing the using. Then, with a single sentence - and later musings about midi-chlorians - the leonine Master screwed it all over for me, and I don't know yet if I understand it.

I only know this much; I do NOT accept a definition of the Force which transforms it into some kind of diety, requiring the worship of the people of the galaxy. That kind of explanation would make of the Jedi, a group of priests or shamen or something - and that I don't buy at all. I AM prepared to accept that there is some universal (Jungian) wisdom involved in how it works and what it does - but not the kind of ubiquitous, all-knowing, personal prayer-answering godhead that is the focus of so many of our religions. In the belief (wait - maybe I need to don some asbestos gear here) that more death and cruelty and horror have been inflicted on the human race in the name of religion than any other cause, I do NOT want to see such concepts become a part of the SW universe that I know and love!

I see the lightside and the darkside as a kind of yin/yang - mirror images of the same thing - and which is which depends on the purpose of its use. As to which is stronger - I submit that evil often appears to be stronger than good, simply because it has no compunctions about anything. It uses whatever it needs to use, without caring what kind of damage it might inflict or who might pay the price for it. Good, on the other hand, tempers itself to avoid harming the innocent and achieving its goals at costs too horrible to bear.

I do believe that, ultimately, good is stronger - because it endures - but it often suffers te

 

Geo: To your first question, about the generational thing: I really don't think I'm a good person to answer that, because even when I was a teenager, I never really fit the "mold." IRL and on these boards, many of my current and past friends have been older than me, and my taste in many areas is more similar to the previous generation or two than my own. As my guitar teacher once said, jokingly, "Tim, you're an anachronism."

AS to the Force - IMO, as Eric Clapton once said, "It's in the way that you use it."

I don't see a seperate Dark or Light side but rather think it's a "focus determines your reality" issue - a Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, a Sith for personal gain. But it's still the Force. OR, perhaps, it's similar to an antenna of sorts... when you are at calm, at peace, etc, you pick up the "light side frequency" and when angry, etc, you pick up the "dark side frequency"

I don't think the Dark Side is necessarily stronger, so much as in the PT, the Jedi have become complacent. Palpatine was a master at using the strengths of the Dark Side (mystery, deceit, etc) to serve his ends, much like a good general tailors his tactics to the strengths of his army and the weaknesses of his enemy.

Does the Force have a will? Is it benevolent, or mostly indifferent? I don't know. It all depends on whether or not you believe Anakin's turn was part of his destiny - in which case, the supposedly benign Force demanded a terrible price in "collateral damage" merely to rebalance itself.

-Tim

 

I missed a bunch of questions...

Mistress_Renata - I read the NJO books but do not read the NJO fan fiction for various reasons (which I won't get into here since there are other threads for that). I've never had the urge to write post ROTJ fiction at all. For me, my muse demands that my characters include Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and/or Anakin in some combination. That alone keeps me more than busy!

Geo3 - Your question about the "will" of the Force should spark some interest. I'm not ignoring it but I'd rather read other people's replies on this issue and there have been some good ones so far....

 

Hi folks!

First, a caveat. I actually kinda like most of the EU. I enjoy reading stories set in the GFFA, Saga or otherwise, official or fanfic. Some of the EU isn't that great, but I still get a kick out of it. On the other hand, I'll fully admit that reading Shatterpoint by Matt Stover has changed some of my beliefs about what being a Jedi means -- I thought that book was as profound an exploration of what being a Jedi means as almost anything we see in the movies.

That said, when I discuss the deep issues of Star Wars, I almost always like to do it in a purist fashion. So for the debates we're having here, I think I'll fit right in.

As to the light side/dark side issue: The view I like the most, personally, is that there is only one Force, but it has distinct light and dark sides. Unlike some of you, though, I don't believe that which side of the Force is involved is exclusively a matter of the individual using it. I focus on words like Anakin being "seduced" by the dark side of the Force, and warnings not to be "tempted" by its power. Yes, I think the individual Force-user must be in a state of mind to act darkly -- angry, aggressive, vengeful, hateful, or whatever. But I do think the dark side of the Force "whispers in your ear" (the metaphorical devil on the shoulder) and tempts you to use its power. A strong-willed Jedi will resist the temptation and not use the dark side; or will flirt with it and then step back (like Obi-Wan in TPM against Maul, or Luke in ROTJ against Vader). A Jedi with a weaker will, however, will succumb to the temptation, as Anakin does in AOTC (on Tatooine and in the Geonosis hangar).

I like the idea of the dark side as something more than merely a passive power to be accessed and misused in a moment of personal weakness. I like that it exploits you, speaks (figuratively) to you, affirmatively tempts you to taste the forbidden fruit...

As to the will of the Force: I agree, Cyn, that this is a PT addition to our understanding of the Force. I interpret the OT as demonstrating that it was Luke's destiny defeat Vader and the Emperor, which he achieves by turning Vader back to the light. I don't believe the OT anywhere itself suggests that this was the only way Luke could have fulfilled this destiny. I really believe that seeing the Saga as truly being about Anakin requires the PT; without it, there is no reason to think defeating the Emperor required Anakin to return to the light.

The PT has "retroactively" (to us, the audience) added meaning to the OT -- by creating the prophecy of the Chosen One and confirming that Anakin's destiny is more important than Luke's.

And just as I like the idea of a tempting dark side, I like the idea of a Force that -- in a broad, cosmic sense -- seeks to purge itself (the Force) of a corruption (the Sith) inside of it. Just as the dark side offers power and temptation, the light side offers visions and prophecies. The Force (I guess, the light side) conceived Anakin Skywalker as the hero to accomplish this end. And ultimately he succeeds.

I also firmly believe that Anakin's path is one marked by free will and choices. (Heck, that's what all my AUs are about -- Anakin's choices.) The Force has a will in the broadest sense, but in my opinion it does not act on the micro, individual scale as a deity would. So the Force has a will, that it sometimes makes known to those who can perceive it, but it leaves its implementation to those individuals. Was it the will of the Force that Anakin bring balance by defeating the Sith? Sure. Was is the will of the Force that Qui-Gon defy the Council, then die, burden Obi-Wan with Anakin's training, bring Padme back into Anakin's life, have Shmi be tortured......... Of course not.

This is how I like to think about the Force, and how I like to write it.

Looking forward to more interesting topics here.

 

I wonder sometimes if the preference for the movies or the books has to do with where you "discovered" SW initially.

I don't know. I grew up on the films, and didn't really discover the book until around the time of the SEs. I was thrilled, I thought they woudl be great -- more SW, how could they not be good? -- but wound up disappointed and annoyed. My father, and to a lesser extent, I kept getting books from people who knew we were SW fans and knew we already had the movies. For the most part, they collect dust on a shelf, and neither of us has bought a post-ROTJ novel for ourselves. It wasn't until I joined the SW online community that I realized that part of the fandom not only loves these books, but takes them as gospel. That was a bit of a surprise!


I am curious, to my fellow authors, has the avid popularity of the EU/NJO prevented you from wanting to write stories based in the post-Saga time frame?

Not really. That's not my era really, as far as writing is concerned. And I love reading well-done, non-EU post-ROTJ stories. Actually, I think because of the EU, I like those fics even more...because I know I won't get what I'm looking for from the books.

I've written fics that have contridicted EU in some form or another, and occasionally I get people who ask, "Don't you know that this and this and this happened, and not what you wrote?" I simply explain to them that I don't follow the EU, and that seems to settle the issue.

 

Lex

On the other hand, I'll fully admit that reading Shatterpoint by Matt Stover has changed some of my beliefs about what being a Jedi means -- I thought that book was as profound an exploration of what being a Jedi means as almost anything we see in the movies.

You've made some really good points - and I don't think there's really much difference in the way we view the Force, except, perhaps, that I see the weakness in the character to play a more pivotal role in the process: Anakin's 'seduction', for example, is unique to HIM - because of his own character, and another Jedi - my Obi, for example - while not immune, would be better able to resist.

But, regarding Shatterpoint, in a way, I don't consider this book to be EU. I think it could be taken in context as an extension of the purist view, as it seems to be based solidly on information and/or premises raised or suggested in the films. I found it to be a shattering read - - in that it raised issues we've never associated with the Jedi or the Force - issues about primal disciplines and the feral possibilities of a power almost without limit, when channeled through individuals with great resources. But, at any rate, if we define fan fiction as an extrapolation of the events of the films, I think a case could be made that this particular story COULD be included under that definition.

Did you, by any chance, find a similarity to Apocalypse Now? I did - and the darkness in one was pretty much equal to the darkness in the other. Gripping, even frightening - but not, I thought, your typical EU read.

Feel free to differ.

CYN

 

Tara's comment about feeling young on this thread caught my eye. Do you think we are dealing primarily with generational differences in preferring one offshoot of the Star Wars universe to another?

I was talking about this with some friends on IM the other night and that was our guess--that NJO appealed mostly to folks younger than us. My guess is that that is mostly true, however, I do know that the author who won many awards for her NJO stories at the most recent ceremony is of the same generation that I am.

Diane: I think we all have our own definition of what fits in the GFFA and what doesn't. I thought Zahn's initial three books fit in with it at least somewhat. I thought Han and Leia were at least in character and Mara Jade was more complex and therefore more likable, but I'm not a huge fan of Grand Admiral Thrawn appearing out of nowhere and I definitely don't like the clones. I also like The Truce at Bakura because it has the scene in which Leia sees her father's ghost.

Unlike CYN, I don't like the JA. It tends to make Qui-Gon look like an ice cube and it makes me want to ask Obi-Wan if he wants some cheese with his whine. But to each his own.

My reasons for not writing Pre-Saga or Post-Saga are similar to CYN's--my main object of interest (and lust) was not discovered until the Saga and dies before it's over.

I simply don't think a story is worth writing or reading without Anakin Skywalker in it somehow. That's just me. I could write post-Saga in an AU in which Anakin lives.

My first experience with Star Wars was my father taking me to see the OT in the theater on its first run. My interested waned for awhile, then I got back into it when I went to see the SEs with my husband in the theater. I read my first EU book after TPM came out--it was Zahn, and it was OK. I also picked up The Courtship of Princess Leia and was completely unimpressed, with that and with the Young Jedi Knights series (the one that caused me to ask "How many times can the Solo kids get kidnapped?").

I'll tackle the Force question after I've finished my coffee...

 

a_g - Smile when you say that, Podnuh!

Maybe I should clarify one thing: I do NOT like the way the JA is written, or the dialogue, etc. What I DO like is the outline of the progression of stories, which explains certain aspects of the interaction between Masters and Apprentices.

Comprendé?

CYN

 

Oui, CYN.

 

Hmmmm...

Seems like I messed a few of those fuzzy lizard things as EU disscusion has become paramount in this thread.

For the record: I tried to read the JQ/JA books... like Cyn, I am a voracious reader. I read (read sufferd through) Approaching Storm and Ditto Zahns books. I would hope that this would be a place to escape from such, IMNSHO, rubbish.

My works and reading preferances focus on the characters from the saga...

to quote Cyn: And I'm not entirely sure that the books ever quite lived up to my hopes that they would equal the films in grabbing my attention and holding on for dear life.

The works I read are drawn from that same feeling of being grabbed... The authors I admire can take familiar characters and breath even more life into them be it in the matter of 'classic cannon' (ie the films) or AU... I have no interest in what transpires afterwards really, the Journey is compleate.. it's the side roads I'm interested in.

 

I'll get to geo's question first; hopefully I'll be able to respond to the others later.

So I ask you - based on your understanding of the Saga stories, does the Dark Side have its own will/agenda? Or is it a subset of that universal energy that Obi-Wan first described to Luke in ANH (see quote on my sig). And now that I'm at it, what is "The will of the Force", anyway?"

The way I see it, there's the Force, which is that energy that encompasses all things in the universe (except, apparently, the Yuuzhan Vong ). The Light Side and the Dark Side are a part of each Jedi or Sith. I see these different sides of the Force as being connected with the individual, not as entities separate from the greater whole. For example - Anakin used the Force; but the Dark Side, which is a part of the Force, spoke to him through his use of the Force. This is just my opinion, of course.

As for the "will of the Force" - to me, that has to do with simply the way people and events in the galaxy unfold. As Qui-Gon said, "Nothing happens by chance." What is meant to be will be. That's my interpretation, anyway.

Okay, I don't think any of that made sense, but maybe someone will be able to figure it out...

I'll come back later and respond to the other questions, and everyone else's responses.

 

I was just having this discussion with my other half on IM, and we were discussing her post since I like The Approaching Storm. (Rogue Planet? NOT. But TAS, yes.)

It did make Obi-Wan look like an ice cube and it did make the Jedi look like morons, but I found the characterization at least somewhat accurate. *runs from CYN*

And also, Anakin sings.

I'm wondering if like/dislike of the EU doesn't come down to how we see the characters and the accuracy of their portrayals in the books. This doesn't include, of course, original characters, which I will often like or dislike based on how one-dimensional they are. I cannot stand an overly simplistic character.

 

I love you people.

I'll probably lurk like hell, but I'm appreciative of this thread -- I myself find I am more inspired by the movies than anything else.