Science or Spirituality

We don't need to disprove something that has yet to be proven in the first place. If you stand by your claim that we haven't shown that God can't exist... then God is every bit as likely to exist as the flying spaghetti monster. I know how much theists hate that stupid monster being brought up, but that's exactly what you're worshipping!

There is just as much validity to support the tooth fairy as God. The Great Pumpkin. Luke Skywalker. These figments have just as much validity as your precious GOD. These MAY also exist, but until you prove otherwise. Therefore I challenge you to prove your GOD over every other possible explanation.

That means you'll have to disprove ALL possible imaginary creations, leaving only your one. Can you do it? Then keep your foolish God to yourself. Grow up!

No, it should be treated as something which does not exist. If it can't be comprehended by humans, then you have nothing to indicate it's not just some figment of the imagination. We might as call GOD the FORCE. That make a lot more sense.

 

And I've seen people who accept it, and yet act in spite of it. Think of all the pastors we've had in recent years to turned out to be practicing the opposite of what they've been preaching.

 

You don't need to be in an organised religion to be spiritual. However, what you say is true, too. Organised religion seems to be one of the most corrupt insitutions in the world. I wonder if it is a failing in the person's character that was being held back by their beliefs, but they then abandon them giving in to what they know is wrong? But that may be more of a psycological discussion.

 

That would be all the more reason to dispel organized religion. If it's becoming increasingly corrupt, then the best solution would be to just do away with it and let people come to their own spiritual conclusions. It's best just not to feed upon the very thing which instigates additional social barriers between peoples, but to try and establish common ground.

Muslims and Christians above all others have it wrong, which is why I have the greatest contempt for both.

 

I was raised catholic, so I know how you feel.

When I talk to a Jehovah's Witnes about Christianity, it is like almost completeley different than catholic christianity. So I don't hold the same feeelings against that faith. I found something along Taoism to make the most sense, for me anyway.

I have a hard time learning about a Muslim's faith because whenever I talk to one, they seem to hide it from outsiders.

 

I see there were some comments on my proven/disproven remark. Sorry i havent been available for reply. What i just wanted was to throw out an idea and see if there were any reactions on it, because its kind of the cornerstone in the battle between Science(Reason) & Religion/Spirituality(Belief). I agree that it is a wrong way to put it, and in the world of science there is no logic to it. However, my point remains.. Our eyesight, hearing and smell is currently our best frame of reference dealing with the world around us. But life keep evolving, so do we. Imagine what future generations will discover about ourselves and our place in Cosmos, things that we at this point cant even imagine.

I also realise that the nature of "God" is not something for us to prove. If one could prove God exists then i guess that would be proof he does not exist(if that makes any sense). I think God can only be experienced on an individual level, though its not something i can say i have experienced myself. But there are people that have had deep spiritual experiences, moments when they have felt completely at peace and in touch with all life around them. This is probably what the term "God" originally was all about, that great place within ourselves, a place of enlightenment.

But over time organized religion have twisted the word so that people started to believe God was some external existence residing in the heaven above, pointed his finger and created all life. But all the while God was that unique place/or feeling within each human-being that we just could not explain. If you call it God or any other word you would choose doesnt matter. To me God is only a word for something we cannot explain. God has never been a "one eyed" magician to me, and i personally dont like the word "God", because it has become so tainted, and it only causes so much misunderstanding in our world. When people kill in the name of God, well.. nuff said..

So i understand and can relate to much of what you say about Religion as an organization Darth_Yuthura.

 

Actually I like when people bring up the Flying Spaghetti Monster, it's fun.

Yeah, nobody needs to prove/disprove anything first. We just all need to accept that it's unknowable to us at present... and then let people believe whatever they want to believe. I have no problem with someone believing in other things I do consider imaginary, no matter how ridiculous. I really don't care if someone believes in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, the Great Pumpkin, Spider-Man, Gargoyles, Harry Potter, the Force, etc. Let them believe what they want, it doesn't bother me.

But please, Yuthura, the attitude underlying that post is quite counter-productive to your message. Which I don't agree with, nobody should feel pressured to not believe what isn't proven/disproven. We just all need to agree it's unknowable... possible but unproven.

Why do you care what other people believe, if it can't be proven/unproven? It's one thing trying to educate people of something when you have proof or evidence, but another thing when both sides are lacking proof/evidence. That goes both ways... I dislike it when theists try to pressure people to believe in God and think that their way is the only true way, and I dislike it when atheists try to pressure people to not believe in God and think that their way is the only true way.

 

We just all need to agree it's unknowable... possible but unproven.

Ghost, the thing is, for some of us certain things are not possible. Like telekinesis or talking to the dead.

THESE. AREN'T. POSSIBLE.

So when I try to educate people away from superstition, I'm not "pushing" people any more than when I explain electromagnetism.

 

Why do you care what other people believe, if it can't be proven/unproven? It's one thing trying to educate people of something when you have proof or evidence, but another thing when both sides are lacking proof/evidence. That goes both ways... I dislike it when theists try to pressure people to believe in God and think that their way is the only true way, and I dislike it when atheists try to pressure people to not believe in God and think that their way is the only true way

Day to day believers do not affect the world. The usual religious person goes to church and is basically a good person. However, it is not this person we are worried about. When you look further to those in charge of religion you find a mentality that is quite counter-productive to the world at large.

We have a user here named Peez who has not posted in a long time. What does a person care what is posted here? Peez put it best that there are young and/or uninformed people who post and read here and he felt obligated to post and counter wrong information.

 

Okay, before we were disussing proof and disproof, and proving God. And we had got into there being no evidence either way. But I remember watching something on T.V. that may pertain to this. So I found a clip from the show

http://science.discovery.com/videos/through-the-wormhole-creator/

If you follow this there are 4 seperate clips on the subject from different sides.

I found all ideas to be very interesting.

So does this begin to prove/disprove "God" or a higher power? Or are we just as far away as before? And how do you feel about the arguments on both sides?

 

This is bull****. And the fact that you underlined it doesn't change the fact that it's bull****.

I suppose we can't know that Son of Sam's dog didn't tell him to murder all those people, and we can't know that he didn't have a very good reason for doing so to boot, so we'd better just let Son of Sam carry on and believe what he wants to believe.

We can't know that Charles Manson was wrong, we should let him believe whatever he wants to believe.

Heck, maybe the Jews ARE an inferior race! It's unknowable, we'd better let people believe whatever they want to believe.

Maybe slavery isn't wrong. How do you know? We'd better let people believe whatever they want to believe.

No. And no, and no, and no. False beliefs are false beliefs, and the best way to protect against malign false beliefs is to have a vigilant opposition against ALL false beliefs. Your argument is beyond asinine; it's psychotic.

 

Let me pour some oil on troubled waters. I have been following the debate so far.

Spirituality has nothing to do with religion. One can be spiritual and not be religious, just as one can be religious and not be spiritual, as evidenced by those preachers who are so obviously corrupt or just in it for the $$.

Now, here's my definition of spirituality. Just a brief list of things that awaken a spiritual feeling in me.

Rainbows, especially 'double' ones. I know it's just the prismatic effect of light on water vapor, but it is beautiful and uplifting nonetheless.

Meteor showers. I plan on being on my patio tonight with a blanket on the chaise lounge from 9 p.m. till it gets too cold, to watch the Persieds shower.

The northern lights, sunlight, flowers, especially roses, just getting in touch with nature, however nature was created doesn't enter into the equation, it's simply wonderful and beautiful.

Just seeing the swath of stars that makes up the Milky Way is awe-inspiring and uplifting.

Great literature and great art and great music, Beatles included.

Could it be that you guys have spirituality maybe confused with spiritualism, which involves ghosts, etc.?

 

Probably.

We're trying to keep all aspects amd perspectives open though. And we have discussed in part the feelings produced.

 

Sami: Dorkmann tried to get a definition at the beginning of the thread, but I guess everyone liked vagueness.

 

Correction: YOU'RE trying to avoid defining what the topic of the thread is in order to avoid having to have a substantive conversation. I'VE tried to nail down what we're discussing.

I'm surprised it's gone on this long, as Senate threads usually involve a fairly clear thesis and definition of terms. If "spirituality" means anything, it means nothing. We might as well have a thread called "Science or Snythywackle" at this rate.

 

That would be a disservice to Snythywackle...


But yes, there is a difference between discussing an issue, and dodging it...

 

I don't think that's what E85 meant at all.


And now Lady_Sami is making 'spirituality' into 'wonderful, beautiful, uplifting'.

I guess I do agree with Quix, after all... STOP!

 

Look. People typically don't find "meaning" in their lives either through "science" or "spirituality." Yes, I know a few microbiologists and chemists and neuroscientists who are more or less married to their careers and much of the meaning of their lives is tied up in their research and their labs and their writing and their grant proposals and their attending conferences and so on.

But I'd hazard a guess, and forgive me if I'm just projecting my own life onto other people, but most of us find meaning through our social connections and family, the people who attend school or work and play and volunteer and attend charity events with us and, for the religious, the people who attend church and pray and commune with them. Meaning comes through involvement. Even those scientists I mention above have a lot of the "meaning" of their careers wrapped up in the colleagues who interact with them, the grad students they mentor, the people who collaborate with them on articles for publication, etc.

"Spirituality," whatever it happens to mean to you, is something harmless you can do inside your head when you have a little spare time, like on a long drive alone in a car in one of those rural areas where there's nothing but Christian rock on the radio and you forgot to pack any CDs or audio books and passing a truck packed with live chickens is the most interesting thing that's happened in the last 50 miles. But I digress.

 

Okay, lemme dish up mine.

I have OBE's. For me, it involves staring into the mirror hard, and getting myself to think 'So. That's you, standing there.' I look at myself. I say my full name. 'That's you. That's this guy.' And before you know it, I'm looking at myself like at someone else. I'm outside myself, looking at me. Seeing myself the way others see me, without the inner personality that I know so well. And that certainly gives me a trancendant feeling; I disconnect from my ego momentarily, and connect better with the world around me.

I can feel the earth revolve. It's wonderful. All it takes is a coupla minutes of peace and quiet, and the will to ponder the principles of axis rotation and gravity. It's like being on an airplane. Very inspirational.

I've felt humble in the presence of a tree. Which can bring things in perspective. After all, that tree has lived three times as long as me, and will be there after I've died. It's ten times as tall as me... and who was the master of Creation?

This is all very spiritual. But it's not special. It just takes a certain focus. And there's nothing mystical about it, you can do it while still having great faith in the methods of science.

 

Does that mean we should be addressing you as SIR SuperWatto?

 

... This is the topic Knighthood or Spirituality, right?

 

I did that once after getting really drunk on hard apple cider. Then I thought "Yeah, I'd **** me." Detachment from self but not ego, I guess.

I wouldn't really consider that "out of body."

 

I don't believe there are any other out-of-body experiences. Except on drugs or lack of oxygen.

 

Hmm, finding meaning in life is not the same as finding the meaning of life. Spirituality to me has to do with finding the meaning of life, which I still haven't figured out.

We are born and we live for a very short time, cosmically speaking, and then we die. What we do in the interim is what matters.

I think we should live our lives in such a way as to cause the least pain to the fewest people as possible and try to alleviate as much suffering as we can.

I can find spiritual meaning in science--in the way crystals grow, in the formation of galaxies, etc.

Most of us will never find a cure for a disease, or write a symphony or a book or paint a beautiful picture, but we can do small things every day like pay one person one genuine compliment every day, and avoid saying hurtful things, like don't tell a fat person they need to diet or that they're fat or if you don't like the way someone dresses or they have tattoos, keep that comment to yourself.

And I had a OBE, but it was due to lack of oxygen 'cause I had had a mild heart attack and was close to dying. I remember seeing the doctors in the ER working on me (I was floating on the ceiling, apparently) and I was really mad that they brought me back, 'cause after the floating on the ceiling bit, I was in a place with the most beautiful music I'd ever heard and the most beautiful light was shining there, too. And I wanted to stay there.

 

Haven't been around these parts in awhile, but I'm going to take a stab at this subject. As far as comparing science and spirituality, I do think there are scientific aspects that tend to hit a bit on spiritual ideas. For example, if you want to know more about the vastness of God or that spiritual, all-knowing being who exists and created everyting, science only proves that the intelligence of this being is vast and infinite; deeply complicated, could be beyond our understanding, but we hope to understand. Like the Bible says, we are like a grain of sand in the vastness of creation. And yet science is also a journey, we have discovered how to control many aspects of it, but cannot grasp anything beyond death, or answer many questions that are still left unanswered. Hundreds of years will pass, and then maybe more questions will be answered and understood in scientific terms. But we all still die, and in the end, the universe will come to a close. So our science will only last as long as this universe will. Spirituality on the otherhand is the connection too or search for that inner nature that flows within us; even if science goes spirituality could still exist and people could too on a subatomic level in the spiritual world. Religion is a lot like science, it has it's rules and beliefs, and theories. Spirituality is deeper than that, but religion can deepen spirituality. Well, that's my assessment thus far.


And I had a OBE, but it was due to lack of oxygen 'cause I had had a mild heart attack and was close to dying. I remember seeing the doctors in the ER working on me (I was floating on the ceiling, apparently) and I was really mad that they brought me back, 'cause after the floating on the ceiling bit, I was in a place with the most beautiful music I'd ever heard and the most beautiful light was shining there, too. And I wanted to stay there.

Thanks for sharing this with us, Lady Sami. I totally believe your story. I had a wide waking experience, not a near death experience, but I could sense heaven about to open because I was involved with things at that time that God didn't want me involved in and he asked me "do you want to see it?" I told him no, I wasn't ready for that yet. and I heard music and there were people there making sounds like they were happy, like children sounds but I knew they were not children. And nobody can tell me that wasn't real. I love hearing your story, thanks for sharing.