PT Separatist fates post-ROTS?

I don't think the Sith ideas inevitable lead to in-fighting ... they, from their code, value passion, strength and power (and victory) and those can lead to in-fighting but but wouldn't necessarily, I guess there is necessarily some greed and thus competitiveness associated with wanting power but that doesn't mean it would necessarily be unlimited greed for unlimited power.

 

Ventress wasn't truly a Sith, and the situation with Maul and Savage Opress was a fluke.

The conflicts the Sith had with the Jedi were likely similar to what the Clone Wars appeared to be on the surface: a pair of Sith Lords using their powers of manipulation to form alliances and raise armies in an attempt to conquer the Republic through force. This is the battle the Jedi think they are waging in the prequels, when the reality is that the Sith have adapted their strategy. The war itself is a smokescreen to distract the Jedi while the Sith undermine the Republic's institutions from within, ultimately allowing the Sith to take control of the Republic with the consent of its own citizens.

Well, we don't ever see a single example in the films where a Sith relationship didn't eventually devolve into in-fighting, so....

The Sith ideology is based around greed, and it is a consistent theme of the films is that greed always leads to more greed. Greed is not, in fact, good.

 

I'd say it's necessary and inevitable that being a Sith leads to in-fighting. It's not just the greed of having more power pushing them either. It's also knowing the other Sith will kill you when they can. A Sith needs to act when the opportunity presents itself or they'll be the one that is killed.

 

I'm thinking of another question, why aren't more Sith interested in and pursued romantic relationships, with each other or non-Force users? Too distracting for them or just, out-of-universe, a bad idea for bad guys to have more human, relateable qualities? Or were more of them, pre-Sidious?

 

But all the examples we see revolve around Sidious, either as an ambitious apprentice or mean master, so the reason of the infighting might be more because of him than an inevitibility of the religion.

The key defining element of both the Jedi and the Sith is that they are Force users, being able to harvest Force energy and apply it in various supernatural ways. The fundamental difference between the two is the method they harvest that energy.
The Jedi, as described by Yoda to Luke in ESB, sense the Force everywhere, between all living things. Their ideology then, is about peace and harmony.
The Sith, as described by Anakin in the opera scene in ROTS, derive strength from their passion. So their ideology is basically about following inner passions. This in itself isn't evil I'd say... the problem is when their passion happens to be unlimited power and/or they take the ideology to the extreme, pursuing their passions at all costs.

 

Sids was probably too focused on his ambitions to take any notice in potential romantic partners, but I wouldn't be surprised if previous Sith were married.
Out-of-universe, yeah I agree with what you said. Plus it's unrelated to the plot, so a distraction for the audience.

 

"Always two there are."

Everything we see bears this out. Whenever there are more than two, they start squabbling and someone dies. The only way to keep the infighting to a minimum is to restrict things to one master/apprentice pair, which only (mostly) works because both members of the pair depend on each other for some aspect of their power.

The instant a third Sith prospect enters the picture, it upsets the equilibirum. Now either the master can acquire a new apprentice to act as an extension of his power, or the apprentice can become a master himself. The first two Sith no longer need each other to further their ambitions, and because there is no place for unconditional love in their hateful ideology, they immediately seek to discard each other.

Okay, so the Sith are just misunderstood. Gotcha.

 

You might be correct, but it seems like a distinction without a difference. Ventress was, for intents and purposes, Dooku's apprentice. She was a force user following a Sith Lord's commands and gaining his knowledge. Even the Inquisitors might qualify as Sith, although we don't know as much about them as Ventress. As to Maul and Savage, I think it's hard to know whether it's a fluke or not. It doesn't seem likely to me that Maul was the first and only formal Sith apprentice to be abandoned by his master without being killed.

 

But that doesn't mean she was trained fully in the ways of the Sith. She wasn't.

I don't know why it doesn't seem likely to you. The circumstances involved in Maul's seeming death and miraculous survival don't in any way strike me as particularly repeatable.

If a master wants to abandon his apprentice, he kills him so that he doesn't present a problem later on. The only reason that didn't happen with Maul is because Sidious thought he was already dead.

 

I think Dooku has hopes for Ventress to someday become a legitmate Sith apprentice. Maybe he hoped topple Darth Sidious on his own, or maybe he thought he could do it with her help.

What happened with Maul is so interesting. We learn later that Sidious might have left Maul alive as a way to draw out Mother Talzin and kill her. It's also stunning how quickly Maul was able to amass power. It took him hardly anytime to become the puppet master ruling Mandalor and it's puppet leader. I think that is what the Sith do so well. Just two of them can topple worlds or form huge armies in a very short amount of time.

 

Oh, no doubt those were his eventual plans. But he had to proceed carefully lest Sidious grow overly alarmed at Ventress's growing power. As it happened, Dooku lost that chess match. Sidious forced him to get rid of her before she even had a chance of becoming a threat. Sidious is too smart for Dooku.

That is strange. Just from watching The Clone Wars it always struck me that Maul's survival came as a complete surprise to Sidious. Where do we learn that?

 

I think Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid is talking about "Darth Maul: Son of Dathomir" comic, which takes place after Maul and Savage Opress are defeated by Sidious on Mandalore.

 

We learn that on the Clone Wars and in the comic "Darth Maul: Son of Dathomir" which comes from scripts for The Clone Wars that were never finished as episodes.

It seems that Maul survived Naboo in part because of his own training and because Mother Talzin, his actually birth mother, was protecting him. I'm not sure if Sidious knew Maul was alive the entire time or not. Either way Sidious had zero interest in him anymore as an apprentice.

Mother Talzin had some knowledge or power that Darth Sidious saw as a direct threat to his plans for taking over the universe. As long as she was alive his successfully creating the Empire was in question. In the last aired episode with Maul in it, Sidious says he won't kill Maul because he has use for him. That use we find out later is to draw out Talzin. She dies protecting Maul in a fight against Sidious, Grevious, and Dooku. Pretty epic stuff to have all of them there together.

With Taliz gone Sidious says Maul has no future and is therefore no longer a threat to worry about. That's how Maul lives past Solo and into Rebels. Sidious isn't even trying to find him anymore. Did Maul even know that?

If we are getting The Seige of Mandalor, I wonder if we will also be getting Son of Dathomir animated. Right now it looks like we're getting Bad Batch, Ahsoka on Walk About, and Seige. But Son of Dathomir is an important part of the story if Maul is to appear on Mandalor.

I just wish we'd get all unfinished Clone Wars episodes as originally intended.

 

Oh, okay. So you meant he kept him alive after his return. That's a bit more explicable.

 

Yes. It's unknown to me if Sidious had any idea Maul got off Naboo. But we do know Maul is the actual Son of Mother Talzin. At some point Darth Sidious and Talzin were allies working together in some capacity. Perhaps it was an exchange of knowledge or they were went looking for something together. Each possessed knowledge and power the other wanted to learn. It's even hinted that there was more to the relationship, maybe it was romantic, maybe it was more about power - like Sidious promising to make Talzin his Sith Apprentice. It's not even clear if Sidious was the Sith Master or Sith Apprentice at this point.

We do know in the end Mother Talzin had a son, Maul. And we know that Maul's father is not Palaptine. The father was a Zabrak Night Brother. This Zabrak is also the father of Savage Opress, making Maul the younger half brother of Savage Opress.

But we don't know if Maul was already born with Sidious and Talzin were working together or if Sidous returned later and met Maul. But it seems Sidious took Maul from Mother Talzin. Stole him away to become a Sith Apprentice at a young age.

I got the feeling this was betrayl on mulitple levels by Palpatine to Talzin. He stole her child. He replaced her as his apprentice. He revealed he'd been using her the entire time. Which even if she'd been playing the same against him, Palpatine is the one who pulled it off and got the best of her.

And we don't know what knowledge Palpatine wanted From Talzin or why Palpatine Tazlin could ruin his plans.

I thought she could somehow prevent the Sith destorying the Jedi or interfere in the Clone Wars. Heck, telling Yoda or Mace Windu that Palpatine is a Sith Lord could be enough to do it. But now I'm wondering if Talzin could block Palaptine cheating death. I don't think Talzin would 'tell on' Palpatine.

Those Sepertists didn't stand a chance compared to Evil Force users and Witches.

 

This answered some big questions about Maul and why he was left to rule the underworld. In a sense, Sidious used him as another Sith piece to fulfill his plan. So what happened to Talzin? What is written of her/it story after the CW episode disappearing against Mace? Is she the mother in the Mortis arc?

 

See above plus add was there any more Seperatist leaders that Anakin didnt wax? I did see another of Passel Argente species or him in another cloak in the ROTS bonus dvd "within a minute".

 

Her fate is revealed in the comic Darth Maul: Son of Dathomir, which is an adaptation of a story arc from TCW.

As for the Separatists, the corporate leadership is wiped out by Vader. But the separatists themselves continue to hold some strongholds. Lucas had established that in his Underworld series that he was developing.

 

That last part about Underworld is interesting. Where did you come by this info?

 

I thought I had it on my bookmarks, but I finally found it. Someone made a Google doc with all the bits and pieces revealed so far: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DdxDngZpm6acDGOjXTmj6YeFSMO9aI2fNnAc1lL5HOY/edit

 

I'll give Lucas credit where credit is due. It seems like his idea for the ST centered around the threats of the underworld, and having slowly introduced those concepts in the PT and then dealing with the criminal underworld directly in the OT through Han Solo's issues with Jabba the Hutt, it doesn't come out of nowhere.

 

I like to think that many of them join the Rebel Alliance