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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Share the best forum counterpoint(s) That have you thinking differently

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Ender_and_Bean, Mar 30, 2018.

  1. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    John Boyega has the best facial reactions in the saga to developments since Harrison Ford. I think that's where some of the comparisons come from. I think a lot of gifs will come from Finn over the years ahead simply because of how expressive and charming John's acting is in all the ways that so many of us loved Harrison. You can tell so much from even just a look by Harrison and John has that same quality.

    That said, I agree that as characters they're quite different. While both didn't have initial interest in joining, and both had hearts of gold, Han is more dismissive, arrogant, and a unique mixture of being aloof and also cleverly creative. Leia said it best. He does have his moments.

    Finn had a different reason for not joining, also has a heart of gold, but he's more socially awkward and adorkable than Han. He tries to act confident and cool but whenever he does he lays it on thick and ends up struggling more. Finn helped come up with the plan related to the tracking in the first place and was quick on his feet in TFA when he lied and pretended he could help so he's got some inventiveness to him as well. I think he's at his best when he gets that determined, pissed off look in his eyes like when he faced Kylo Ren or when he's walking in First Order uniform, or when he welcomes the fight to Phasma, or even in the end at Crait when he looks pissed off and says, "I won't let them win!" That's the Finn who tried to tell those Troopers about what Phasma did in the deleted scenes. That's the Finn who confidently told Poe in the deleted scenes basically that he didn't want to disappoint him but he's here for Rey. That's the Finn I think we are slowly getting to see more of as he comes into his own as a man and grows in confidence in who he is and stops trying to put on a cool guy act that he thinks others would like to see. It makes sense he'd be at least a little socially awkward though. I imagine life as a Trooper outcast didn't allow for a ton of normal relationships with people or individuality to come through so in some ways he's literally figuring out more about the man he wants to present to the world now that the armor's off.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2018
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  2. Christopher Blair

    Christopher Blair Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    oh for the record him wearing black in rotj I dont think was an ego problem, but a visual cue that he is tempted by the darkside to take the easy route, which he does for brief times in rotj aka chocking his enemy, he has always been tempted by the dark but refused to do it in the end, for another example he tried to kill the emperor in anger as my gif showed but when the time to kill vader came he refused to do it bc he is a jedi like his father before him. that why the scene with kylo in the hut works he had a moment of anger, and doubt and thought about taking the easy route, but decided not to bc that is his nephew and unprovoked violence is not the answer for a jedi. the ego problem I was referring to comes in the form of thinking he could change ben from the start like he did his father. A true jedi master should have known that kylo was too broken to be trained, but luke willed his father to the light so why not ben solo a much younger kid, that was his ego at its heights. For the reason I dont think he is sympathetic is bc he wanted to know why he failed and wrongly blames the jedi order, even though there are some facts in the history that backs up his pt. I dont think he is a coward in TLJ, I think he truly believes the problems with the galaxy come from the jedi order and decides its time for it to end. but at yoda pts out with great vigor life is not about the failures you have, but what you do after you fail, do you quit or do you get up and try something different. luke got up on the rock projected himself to another world light yrs away and bested kylo without lifting a finger in anger, if that is not a jedi than I dont know what is.
     
  3. Christopher Blair

    Christopher Blair Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    exactly and thats why I think a lot of fans dont see finn's character flaws in tfa, bc john is so charming and really a terrific actor, he was great in detroit. like I said in another thread finn spends 90 percent of the force awakens lying to everybody for his own gains, of what he wants, but he does it with such charm, humor, and charisma that its hard to hold it against finn. Rian toned down the finn humor in TLJ and his character flaws comes to the forefront, so folks see it as a retread instead of what it really was that no this guy really is pretty selfish to an extent. it also didnt help that I think him and the actress playing rose have very little chemistry. Thats something JJ never gets enough credit for, in all his movies I feel like he really nails casting actors with chemistry.

    for the record I dont think finn or han have a heart of gold especially han. I think han had friends he cared about deeply and a code of ethics he himself observed. I actually think him and DJ would have been good friends bc they both viewed the conflict through the same lenses to an extent
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2018
  4. Akane

    Akane Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 20, 2018
    Yeah, I think you're right when you say that Luke's story could work better for the new fans, it certainly worked for me.
    I used the spoiler tag to answer your questions about how I started being a Star Wars fan because It is very long and I think that it was not appropriate for this thread.

    I have a friend who is a great Star Wars fan and he was the one who introduced me to this world. When he bought the TFA dvd he invited some of his friends to watch the movie at his house (including me), I accepted and I must admit that I spent more time talking with others or eating than watching the movie. I remember thinking that I would not understand it because I did not know anything about Star Wars, in fact I asked my friend if Snoke was Darth Vader.:eek:
    In spite of my little interest there were some things that were recorded in my mind, like the friendship between Finn and Rey, Han's death and the fight between Rey and Kylo, but I did not think much about the movie after that.

    Then, last year the same friend wanted to see TLJ for the third time, but he didn't have anyone to go to the theater with, so he asked me to accompany him, I really did not want to go, but then he said he was going to pay all the expenses so I accepted.

    I loved TLJ and since then I started to consume everything related to Star Wars, I saw the movies on Netflix, I started reading comics and novels and now I'm trapped.

    I guess the most interesting part for me are the characters and the drama, I was surprised to find characters with some degree of depth, I think that was what I least expected from Star Wars and the reason why I never gave it a chance before. I also love that the characters are not black or white, Star Wars takes risks and sometimes the heroes are not as good and holy as they should be in this kind of stories.
     
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  5. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    The other thing I’ve realized from discussions with others is how much better explained the slow chase sequence could have been.

    This video:


    Along with my thoughts here:
    Why can’t they go to Hyperspace to jump ahead? It’s more than just the fact that they don’t care too. Hyperspace involves significantly more travel ahead than where they were trailing them and does so in milliseconds. That’s how fast Light speed is. There’s no way to jump only slightly ahead. You go too far forward even at the slightest hyperspace jump.

    Similarly the whole battle worked in inertia and perpetual motion in the vacuum of space. Resistance ships didn’t “stop” they were just overtaken by engines that allowed the ships to continually accelerate beyond a speed at which the Resistance ships plateaued at once their engines died and all they had was the inertia of whatever speed they were at prior to that occurring.

    Any ship with thrust will continually accelerate in the vacuum of space until it hits something because there’s no gravity to or resistance or drag to slow movement down. So, both resistance ships and First Order ships were constantly accelerating but the Resistance ships had more thrust overall and were able to build on their lead until they ran out of fuel and plateaued.

    That sort of summarizes why I genuinely liked the effort by Johnson to work in and talk about some different battle logistics. I do think some of his lines and visuals help but the conversations and debates on this forum show me that it would have benefited from being spelled out more overtly. Perhaps even a briefing scene with more than just Hux and his second in command. If they had briefed and allowed more FO characters to ask common questions related to the logistics it could have set it up better for some.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2018
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  6. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    I'm really enjoying this thread so thank you, although I don't have too much to contribute. I think Luke's arc is the one I can understand best in terms of how people see it and explain it. The concept of a disillusioned, bitter hero that is sick of living up to expectations placed upon him is a good one. I also can understand loving this specific portrayal of that idea because Mark Hamill does such a superb job selling it. Luke hated the super hero the galaxy made him into, but in the end he realized that the galaxy needed him to be that, and he accepted the role. Regardless of my opinion on execution or what it does to the OT lore in hindsight, this is definitely something that I can really see the other side on. This movie was basically half about Luke, he was given a super meaty arc, so I can even understand why a lot of Luke fans love it.
     
  7. La Calavera

    La Calavera Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2015
    @Ender_and_Bean
    I thought this thread was about people from different sides accepting other’s arguments, but you really picked the wrong video to illustrate that. I have many problems with that video, which I will disclose under spoilers for anyone who wants to read them:
    Mainly, that guy has an obnoxious tendency of decontextualizing scenes just to prove his point, and that is the worst way you can argue about anything.

    One) The fight he selectively picked to show “close range” of SDs was a scene in the prequels where:
    a) They were trying to break through a blockage on Coruscant so yeah, it was close combat scenario
    b) Republican capital ships DID NOT have turbolasers (SDs do, and they have long range), so yeah they had to often engage in close combat
    c) They needed to board Grievous ship to save the Chancellor, so yeah, they had to be really close to do that while trying not to blow up the ship

    Two) Falcon is not a capital ship, so his point is false equivalence. In the PT in and the OT, smaller ships have smaller range. You actually see in TESB, Star Destroyers from a very far away distance shooting at the Falcon.

    Three) Capital ships range is not small in the OT. In ROTJ, they were caught in a trap, and stuck between a barricade of SDs and a Death Star. It was unique combat situation, and another false equivalence he used. The SDs were not shooting at them because of Palps orders, which they point out in the movie. Later they started shooting, but the reason why they needed to get “point blank range” was because they were trying to get away from the DS laser and figured being close to the SDs (despite risky) could avoid themselves being targets of the DS.

    Four) Fighters fire can’t penetrate though capital ships shields. There is not one single situation in the PT/OT where you see a fighter penetrating the shields of a capital ship (including Dreadnoughts) when they are still up. You see either their fire being completely absorbed by their shields, or situations like in ROTS and ROTJ (with the Executor) where the shields had to be disabled first.

    They can, however, pass though magnetic fields, which are what used in hangars (such in TPM) and what was covering the first Death Star.

    Five) “Accelerate to attack speed” is not the reason why they passed through the first Death Star shield, neither has that nothing to do with the “he’s too close range” line.

    Six) “During the rebel attack on the first Death Star, there would’ve been virtually no danger if it wasn’t for the support of the TIE fighters.”
    Wrong on so many levels. Porkins dies by surface canon fire, not by the TIEs.

    But seriously, there are many more intelligent posters in these forums who have offered much more valuable and logical counterpoints than that youtuber.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2018
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  8. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    I'll be honest and state that I enjoy that person's videos in other aspects and it dealt with range so it seemed easier to just copy and paste it but you raise some great points.

    I still think range logistics have played a part in space combat in Star Wars but you're probably right that it's never really been effectively laid out yet with any consistent rules or specifics. If range wasn't a concern at all, though, even with it being a blockade over Coruscant, I still don't see the need to engage at close range so consistently unless range is a concern. To me, it felt more like Lucas was aiming for old naval battles of the past more than anything else. Obi-Wan, R2 and Anakin all board on their own smaller ships largely independent of the capital ships protection with only the protection of the convoy of Clone troopers so I'm not sure that's the reason nearly all of the ships were engaged in close combat like that. Most importantly, at close range in the battle of Coruscant we can see tons of damage being inflicted by ships that, one would assume, had their shields up being smashed pretty heavily at close range by opposing forces. Would that same level of damage had been possible at much further distances? I think that's what he was sort of getting at to support the notion that range changes things in Star Wars.

    I suppose it's false equivalence to liken the Falcon's shorter range in any manner beyond one in which he's trying to show that range logistics haev existed in Star Wars before and weren't something that Johnson just made up. That's how I took it in the video but watching it again I can see more what you're saying and that he's applying the Falcon's logistics seemingly right to the Supremacy's. Since the video on screen when he's saying that shows the range bubble of the Supremacy -- which we know is a gigantic 60km long -- so even though the Raddus seems close in the image while he's speaking (and growing larger by the logistics set up of how their ship is faster) if it's too scale in any meaningful way they're still at least 120km away from the looks of it. From the now Legends X-Wing book series they mentioned that Proton Torpedoes have a targeting (lock-on) range of about 2km (although they can travel much farther than that... and that guns are usually "zeroed" at less than 500m, probably only 250m. I realize we're talking again about smaller ships so any conclusions drawn between X-Wings and larger ships is minimal at best but range has seemingly played a part in Star Wars history.

    I know you mentioned the reasons for why Lando mentioned getting closer to point blank range during the battle over Endor and how the the narrator ignored the logistics of that (which I agree with you on) but it's probably also important to note that Ackbar voiced his concerns when he said, "At that close range we won't last long against those Star Destroyers!" So, even though we don't have terrific insight into the specifics of range in this universe it has seemingly played a role in combat before.

    You also mentioned that fighter fire never goes through shields but I think his point was more that the fighters, themselves, as objects could fly through many shields to a range where damage could occur below the shield that would have been absorbed by the shields if outside the bubble. At least that's how I took his line about that.

    Did you have any objections over what I wrote about the hyperspace and space chase logistics out of curiosity?
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2018
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  9. Christopher Blair

    Christopher Blair Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    to further go down the opposite side of folks who dont like the movie, I personally love it. the holdo and poe dynamic is off and I agree with some of the criticism there. I have no problems with holdo telling poe to bugger off at first, he disobeyed a direct order from leia, lost the bomber fleet, and immediately upon meeting holdo became aggressive against his new commander, those are all big no nos. but I will concede that when he confronts her on the bridge and see the transports fueling up, she should have come clean at that point, unless they feared there was a traitor on board, but that never comes up, so I do get why some have a problem there.
     
  10. La Calavera

    La Calavera Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2015
    @Ender_and_Bean

    I actually don’t have much of an issue with the range situation in TLJ. That youtube video though, just annoyed me, because he was constantly recurring to false equivalence arguments.

    The best argument I have seen offered about the range situation in TLJ is that it can be used as an excuse in TLJ because we never actually see in the OT Star Destroyers bowing up a **** from a really long distance. We see them firing at one, sure, but one can always argue that distance interferes with fire power and if you’re at a manageable distance from the enemy, you can a) avoid enemy fire, b) the shields can hold it long enough. Which goes back to the point of where you mention Ackbar’s line, the closer you get to them, the less likely your shields will be able to sustain enemy fire coming from SDs for more than a couple of shots.

    But really, you don’t need to decontextualize scenes from movies to just make that point.

    The thing about TLJ – which is what created problems for me through some were solved via discussion – is that it’s not entirely consistent with its range. In the first opening battle, you have a Dreadnought that is capable of firing from space at a precise location in a planet (the Resistance base), and then target the Raddus, which was only a small spot in their windows, which they only did not manage to shoot because of the bombers attacks.

    That same distance between the FO and the Raddus is seemingly kept for the chase scene, except for some reason, Snoke’s Dreadnought cannot target and shoot the Raddus despite Captain Random’s Dreadnought showing such capabilities. I suppose here you can argue that the Raddus managed to widen the gap between them and the FO, but it’s not clear in the movie.

    Another issue with the range comes later when the FO finds out about the transport ships and suddenly gains enough range to fire at them from normal SDs (which so far in this movie alone were shown to be completely useless with no firing range whatsoever), despite them being at a further distance than the Raddus. Here though people have argued that because the transports don’t have shields, they can easily be obliterated via very long distance fire.

    I’m not sure what’s the point you want to make about hyperspace though.
     
  11. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    One of the aspects that I like about the Poe and Holdo story is how neither side really exemplifies leadership at its best. Based on what we hear I have to assume that Holdo was even better during the Battle of Chyron Belt, which is likely why Poe was so surprised given her reputation from that battle and I'm sure Poe, himself, has had better and more heroic days with better leadership skills than he displayed.

    What I find fascinating is that Rian Johnson wrote the line that one would expect Holdo to speak but doesn't with Poe's "Yeah, it's a need to know plan and she doesn't need to know." Johnson seems to really like the idea of characters utilizing some minor forms of hypocrisy when upset. It's kind of fascinating to me. He does the same thing to a certain extent with Rey when Rey loses her temper, attacks an unarmed Luke, and eventually holds a saber over him while he's down while she's simultaneously angry at him for raising a saber against Ben Solo who is down and unarmed. I love these kinds of choices he makes where he shows similar concepts being explored in different ways with different people to us.

    Ultimately, I do think Holdo being a Vice-Admiral didn't have to tell Poe anything if she didn't want to. It really was a "need to know plan" and if she felt he didn't need to know then in the chain of command that's how that goes. I do think she could have and it's possible she considered it in the C3PO line where he preps Poe that she wanted to talk to him in private and he shares he already did (after he's relieved her of command). If you look at the background characters when Poe first storms in they seem to be executing her plan diligently. It's possible many of them know so it's not as though she's kept the secret only to herself. She's told it to some in her inner circle and as the Senior Officer, if she thinks he's exactly what they don't need right now then she probably doesn't want him trying to talk others out of it. It would have made sense for her once she's relieved of duty to say, "Okay. You wanted to know what's going on? Here's what's going on" but perhaps she always believed she'd regain the ship or that there was a spy on board which is why I agree with people who feel that even a single line "I can't. There may be a spy on board" would have helped anyone who had issues with that moment otherwise.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2018
  12. Christopher Blair

    Christopher Blair Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    last thing im going to say on the luke debate is this gif

    [​IMG]

    this luke def would have pulled a saber on kylo in a moment of weakness lol. the pigs just halted his progress for a moment, not threat of violence from them and without a word luke force chokes a miss piggy lol
     
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  13. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    @La Calavera , my point about hyperspace is just the sheer amount of distance that's traveled due to the speed. I've often heard people ask, "Why didn't they all just jump to hyperspace in front of them." To which, I was trying to say that even a second of hyperspace jumps you 299,792km due to the speed of hyperspace. If the object you're tracking is operating at a distance closer to 200km-500km away and only slowly gaining on that then hyperspace is overkill and sets you further away then where you were. To borrow a Mario Kart analogy it would be like wanting to shoot a green shell at your friend who's directly ahead of you and using the bullet. The bullet is going to send you all the way past him and to the front. Further to the notion of "jumping in front of them" is that there really isn't a front in space. It's true that they were ultimately headed toward Crait but they could have been heading in any number of directions so jumping 299,792km ahead of the direction they're heading via 1 second of hyperspace could have just lead them to go up or down to some other location and then it's the same sub light speed chase where they're slightly faster and constantly gaining.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2018
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