Should Count Dooku have been in The Phantom Menace?

Yes, add Emp and Jabba.

and Yes, there still isn't enough continuity. Audiences relate more to people, not places. Most of those only appear for seconds on-screen. R2 and 3PO are throughout all SW episodes, good. Obi, good. Padme, good. Palpatine, good. Yoda, Good. Mace, nice but not enough.

TPM just seems like a stand-alone movie. That's my opinion. ANH, while it rests on its own, also flows nicely in ESB and then into ROTJ.

The 10 year time gap makes a difference - as the plot changes dramatically, the front villain changes (Maul to Dooku) , and the lead character changes in terms of actors.

Dooku's character is intriguing. And I think it would have been interesting to see him in his rebellious Jedi stage just prior to turning - even very briefly.

 

But what if he'd already left the order at the time of TPM?

Or, more likely (I think), what if we're not supposed to know (yet) when he left? What if he ordered the clones, deleted Kamino etc. before TPM (and before Maul died), but didn't leave the order until well afterwards?

 

Very possible.

Mainly, I've wanted a bit more continuity in the PT (though I will get some in III) and I've thought Dooku's character was a good opportunity for that.

If Lucas achieves the same results in some other way, I won't be disappointed.

 

Should Count Dooku have been in The Phantom Menace?

YES: 12
NO: 5

 

That tally is one more reason that I am glad fans don't write Star Wars.

 

I think it would help bridge the gap between Episode 1 and the other films if Dooku had a cameo at Qui-Gon's funeral.

Suppose this were to happen:
As Qui-Gon's body burns, none of the other characters can see or sense Dooku standing 30 feet away in the hallway of the building's entrance. Dooku is there merely to confirm that his former Padawan is dead. Inwardly, he is furious. He is already mad about something the council has done (we presume), and Qui-Gon's death is the last straw. As the camera zooms in for a close-up of Dooku's reaction, his face stiffens. He then turns around and walks out of the building, and out of the Jedi Order, having never spoken a word. The camera is on Dooku for no more than twenty seconds.

As the credits roll, the audience has no idea who this man was, why he attended the funeral, or why he was so visibly frustrated.

Adding Dooku for this twenty seconds would present the element of foreshadowing that Lucas' so loves. (Remember the appearance of bounty hunter Aurra Sing during the pod race? Rumor has it she was originally going to have a role in Episode 2.)

Another reason I would like Dooku to be in Episode 1 is that this could create a "surprise" for the audience when we learn that this mysterious character who we only briefly saw before and who is now threatening a civil war had actually trained Qui-Gon. The effect of this revelation would become much more powerful after we've seen the deep affection Dooku had for his heroic apprentice. (Interesting to think that this would be the exact opposite of the "surprise" in Episode 5. When viewed sequentially, the audience will be well aware in TESB that Vader is Anakin, even though Luke isn't. In AOTC, Dooku and Obi-Wan would be well aware of their Jedi lineage, even though the audience isn't.) The mystery as it stands now in Episode 2 works because we don't know what to make of Dooku (good/evil). Having Dooku in episode 1 would add another layer of curiosity to think about as we watch Episode 2.

The main reason why adding this scene would be wise is because it would show what we can currently only infer; Qui-Gon's death was a significant reason Dooku turned evil. We would see the totality of his character arc; we witness the moment Dooku becomes susceptible to the dark side (like we will see with Anakin), but Dooku is evil forever more. Ultimately, by seeing the moment Dooku begins to turn evil we are better able to see the similarities in Anakin's fall; and wasn't that the whole purpose of Dooku anyway?

 

That tally is one more reason that I am glad fans don't write Star Wars.

Thankfully, Lucas is doing just fine in ruining Star Wars on his own.

 

I don't think so.

 

Biz i like that idea. basically most of the ideas on having Dooku in TPM work. It would greatly improve TPM and AOTC.

But some ppl only agree with what lucas puts on the screen.... they are what ppl call "yes men". always agree with lucas. "Lucas didn't put dooku in TPM so its IMPOSSIBLE to add him now. The story would ruin."

Lucas is just human like every one of us. he makes mistakes too.


I'm sure if he thought of dooku's character while making TPM he would of added him, but he didn't. He thought of Dooku only while making AOTC

 

"Lucas is just human like every one of us. he makes mistakes too.
I'm sure if he thought of dooku's character while making TPM he would of added him, but he didn't. He thought of Dooku only while making AOTC"


I agree completely, JMaster Luke. I mean, what was the point of Aurra Sing in the Phantom Menace? She added nothing to the movie, but was there only on screen briefly so even though nothing became of her in future films, there's really no problem in showing her so prominently during the podrace.

Same logic applies in the argument for adding Dooku for some sort of cameo; no harm in doing it. In fact, as I mentioned before, it would make Episode 1 connect better with Episode 2, and therefore the rest of the saga. As things stand now, there is no greater between-movies gap in plot and character development than between Episodes 1 and 2; throw us a bone, George.

 

throw us a bone, George.

Watch Ep. III. That might work.

 

TPM just seems like a stand-alone movie.

That's the idea. TPM shows the Republic before the crumbling, before the massive wars. It presents a conflict that was concentrated on a single planet, not the entire galaxy. It shows all the beginnings - the beginning of Palpatine's reign, the beginning of Anakin's great journey and his relationship with Obi-Wan, the beginning of Anakin+Padmé.
It's not until the next episode that the real story takes place. That's why the time gap is so big. TPM merely gives us the foundation for the story and it takes ten years for that foundation to give some interesting results.

JMaster Luke: I already agreed that GL didn't think of Dooku until he started writing AOTC and I also told you that it doesn't matter - the character is great the way it is. As I pointed out later in the very same post(which, it seems, you didn't bother to read), Dooku's personal fate is not important to the plot. That's the reason why it isn't dealt with that much. You can deny it up and down and claim that Lucas is a lazy writer all you want, but the fact remains: Dooku is a very interesting character, but he doesn't need to be fleshed out(if it isn't needed in EpIII, that is).

BTW: Lucas had always planned to introduce a new Sith apprentice in AOTC. Since Maul died in TPM, it was obvious that a new character would take his place, were it a Sith Witch or a fallen Jedi.
I just don't understand why you use the argument "Dooku wasn't thought of until Lucas started writing AOTC". The new character wouldn't have been in TPM whoever it was!

 

Lars_Muul wrote:
"BTW: Lucas had always planned to introduce a new Sith apprentice in AOTC. Since Maul died in TPM, it was obvious that a new character would take his place, were it a Sith Witch or a fallen Jedi."

Obviously, every Star Wars film needs a serviceable villain to help Darth Sideous. But given how much of a completist George has shown himself to be with the changes in the OT, he should add more relevance to the Phantom Menace by rounding out the saga's secondary characters. Give Dooku a more complete story arc and you make Anakin's fall more interesting, too, in that we can now make a full comparison of the fallen Jedi Knights. (Because Anakin becomes the fallen Jedi exception: he redeems himself to the light.) Showing Dooku's full arc, the stereotypical fallen Jedi arc, makes Anakin's redemption all the more powerful. Again, when you consider the entire 6-episode story, Dooku's character is relevant only in relation to Anakin.

That is why I think Dooku should make a very short appearance to show him leaving the Jedi Order at Qui-Gon's funeral. (see above) Adding this Dooku cameo would do multiple things [1] give Dooku more depth, [2] show the instability of the Order as the first movie (the conflict-starter film) ends, [3] foreshadow a future saber face-off, [4] and most importantly offer a fuller parallel for Anakin's fall.

 

i think TPM is perfect just as it is.

no need for dooku in episode 1.

every monkey in his branch.

dont you agree?

cheers.

 

I agree that TPM is a great movie, and that Dooku isn't and needn't be central to the plot of TPM. Though even a small cameo role of Dooku would've been great; simply having Count Dooku as an identifiable character in TPM would've made his roll make a lot more sense in AOTC. It would've been really cool if we could see him organizing and gaining his power with the Seperatists, possibly even leaving the Jedi order. And of course an appearance in Qui-Gon's funeral would've been excellent.

It's not that TPM is flawed for not having him in the movie, it's just that had he been in the movie his character would be a lot more developed and less disposable than people tend to see it as now.

I just can't imagine anybody being dissapointed if George had put Dooku in in the first place.

 

DarthTravis wrote:
"It's not that TPM is flawed for not having [Dooku] in the movie, it's just that had he been in the movie his character would be a lot more developed and less disposable than people tend to see it as now.

I just can't imagine anybody being disappointed if George had put Dooku in [TPM] in the first place."

I couldn't have said it any better, DarthTravis. (And I tried.) That last sentence sums up my feelings on why Dooku should have had a cameo. A cameo wouldn't have harmed anything, and it would have been a wonderful setup for the other films. Nothing but up-side. Maybe he'll appear in a Special Edition.

 

I see no reason why Dooku *should* be in TPM.

Now if he were to be inserted into a shot at the right time in a place that made sense in the story, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

 

yes he should be in TPM. Right now ep 1 and 2 are connected by the thinnest of threads that has hurt the whole PT and will make it collapse when it breaks. But that is up to episode 3 and will be discussed later in the future. You may want to talk about it in the present or past but that my humble colleages is imposible unless we use a time distortion effect involving weasels and porn stars.

 

>>>>I just can't imagine anybody being dissapointed if George had put Dooku in in the first place.

Have you not read the rest of the thread?

 

I would have liked to see him in one of the Jedi Council scenes. It would have helped AOTC in terms of how a Jedi Council member became distraught with the Republic and fell to the darkside.

 

Yes, but Scott - those same people would be rabidly defending his inclusion in TPM had he actually been there. None the wiser.

It's not that TPM is flawed for not having him in the movie, it's just that had he been in the movie his character would be a lot more developed and less disposable than people tend to see it as now.

I just can't imagine anybody being dissapointed if George had put Dooku in in the first place.

Very well said, DT.

Not necessary. Just a nice, albeit small, tie.

 

>>>>>Yes, but Scott - those same people would be rabidly defending his inclusion in TPM had he actually been there. None the wiser.

Well, sure- but there's people who will defend pretty much anything (which I think's more a result of the polarised basher/gusher nature of the fanbase where most of the discussion is actually debate and argument and so many people seem to feel the need to take a side and stick to it- something I'm as guilty of as the next poster... but that's the subject for another thread... Or maybe another forum!)

As I see it, Dooku is supposed to by mysterious. At the end of AOTC, it looks like he's a Sith. On second viewing (probably), we pick up that Jango was recruited by "Tyranus"- Dooku's Sith name. But that puts the time scale into a very strange shape- surely Jango had already been recruited by the time of TPM, given that the clones are something ike ten yers old. We still don't know when or why Dooku became a Sith, whether he was still a Jedi at the time, whether he was in cahoots with Palpatine before Maul died, whether he left the Jedi before or after (or because of) Qui Gon's death, whether he deleted the files inteh archives, whether he was a Sith when he recruited Jango etc. etc. etc.

So at best, an appearance in TPM would strip away a portion of the mystery surrounding him. At worst, it would just be a waste of screentime for the sake of putting a face into a film in which he plays no part.

 

Yes, very true about the fanbase.

So at best, an appearance in TPM would strip away a portion of the mystery surrounding him. At worst, it would just be a waste of screentime for the sake of putting a face into a film in which he plays no part.

Those aren't two 'at best' statements. They are two 'at worst'.

It's not screentime if the shot actually already exist - without him in it.

The timing factor could have been tweaked in the Clones' age (18 year old instead of 20).

The 'mystery' of AOTC is highly debatable. Dooku is mentioned in the first conference room. As an unknown, we automatically say "new bad guy." Seeing him as a Jedi might have shed SOME doubt as to his allegiance.

And the best is more along the lines of we've got stronger continuity and better villain in Clones - both of which I believe are needed.

 

As an unknown, we automatically say "new bad guy."

Only if we are grownups who have seen lots of other movies and instinctively know how they work. A twelve year old is not THAT experienced.

I agree, though, that the inclusion of Dooku in TPM wouldn't necessarily hurt anything. Let me just ask you guys something: How is the firsttimer supposed to know that he is Dooku if he is only seen at the funeral and noone mentions his name?

 

You don't. That's where rewatchability comes to play.

Like Boba's cameo in SE ANH. You don't know who he is until Empire.

It's not necessary by any means. I just think it would be nice. I think Dooku is a very intriguing character and I would like more of him.

But the kids thing - yeah - I think a 12 year old would know. By the age of 7, you've watched enough cartoons to know who the bad guy is.