1. Welcome to the new boards! Details here!

PT Should have this plot point been added to the movies about Anakin wanting to become a Master?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Havok176, Nov 7, 2019.

  1. Havok176

    Havok176 Jedi Knight star 1

    Feb 6, 2016
    Rereading ROTS i noticed this which stood out to me.

    We see in the movies he gets pissed about not getting the rank of master and feels disrespected he doesn't get the recognition he feels he deserves.

    But in the novels he really only wants the rank of master so he could have access to ancient jedi holocrons to help save Padme.

    There is a passage that starts in the novel before speaking with Palptine about him being part of the council

    The Jedi Temple also contained the archives, the vast library that encompassed the Order’s entire twenty-five millennia of existence: everything from the widest-ranging cosmographical surveys to the intimate journals of a billion Jedi Knights. It was there Anakin hoped to find everything that was known about prophetic dreams—and everything that was known about preventing these prophecies from coming to pass.
    His only problem was that the deepest secrets of the greatest Masters of the Force were stored in restricted holocrons; since the Lorian Nod affair, some seventy standard years before, access to these holocrons was denied to all but Jedi Masters.

    After Palaptine tells him that he will make him part of the council, he got his hopes up. He finally thought this was his opportunity to access the holocrons. He didn't care about respect or being a memeber of the council.

    Palpatine had somehow seen into his secret heart, and had chosen to offer him the one thing he most desired in all the galaxy. He didn’t care about the Council, not really—that was a childish dream. He didn’t need the Council. He didn’t need recognition, and he didn’t need respect. What he needed was the rank itself.
    All that mattered was Mastery.
    All that mattered was Padmé.
    This was a gift beyond gifts: as a Master, he could access those forbidden holocrons in the restricted vault.
    He could find a way to save her from his dream …

    And than of course the next scene when he was in front of the council and not granted the rank of master was much more intense in the novel.

    Yoda- Disturbing is this move by Chancellor Palpatine. On many levels.

    Anakin- I understand.

    Mace- I’m not sure you do.

    Anakin was barely paying attention; in his mind, he was already leaving the Council Chamber, riding the turbolift to the archives, demanding access to the restricted vault by authority of his new rank

    Mace- You will attend the meetings of this Council,but you will not be granted the rank and privileges of a Jedi Master.

    Anakin- What? How dare you? How dare you? No Jedi in this room can match my power—no Jedi in the galaxy! You think you can deny Mastery to me? This is an insult to me, and to the Chancellor. Do not imagine that it will be tolerated.

    Mace- Take your seat, young Skywalker.

    Anakin-(Inside his head) You think you can stop me from saving my love? You think you can make me watch her die? Go ahead and Vaapad this, you—

    Obi Wan- Anakin, please

    Anakin- Forgive me Masters

    Anakin could only sit, sick at heart, stunned with helplessness.
    Padmé—oh, Padmé, what are we going to do?
    He didn’t know. He didn’t have a clue. But he knew one thing he wasn’t going to do.
    He wasn’t going to give up.
    Even with the Council against him—even with the whole Order against him—he would find a way.
    He would save her.
  2. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Jun 19, 2019
    I really did like the nuance that plot point of the Archives having special ancient Jedi holocrons only accessible by Jedi Masters that Anakin believed might help him figure out how to save Padme from dying added to Anakin's anger at not being promoted to the rank of Master but getting to sit upon the Council because I think it works well to emphasize how desperate Anakin is to save Padme and how if he feels that he can't gain the knowledge he needs to save her through the Jedi the Sith become an all the more tempting option for obtaining that knowledge once Palpatine begins to seduce him to the Dark Side in earnest.

    I do think this is one area where books can have an advantage over movies in that it's fairly straightforward to include background details that can really flesh out a character's motivations in simple narration but in movies that often needs to be done in dialogue that might come across as clunky or might take up too much filming time.

    That being said, it might have been nice to have this detail in ROTS as well to make Anakin's motivations and fall in ROTS even more coherent although overall I thought that ROTS did a wonderful job executing Anakin's fall and making his motivations clear to me throughout.
  3. Darth Maul Apprentice

    Darth Maul Apprentice Jedi Master star 4

    Jan 27, 2014
    Yeah, didn't they show this a little in the Clone Wars animated show? The one where Ahsoka gets relegated to helping out in the library. If i remember correctly Dooku did this a bit in the Dooku: Jedi Lost book.
  4. Havok176

    Havok176 Jedi Knight star 1

    Feb 6, 2016
    Ya Jocasta Nu tells her that the holocron vault contains the most closely guarded secrets of the jedi order and is restricted to all but Jedi council members as we see Kit Fisto enter the vault. Wish that scene could have had a movie version.
  5. DurararaFTW

    DurararaFTW Jedi Master star 3

    Jul 5, 2014
    Anakin's lust for power attributed to his fall to the dark side, before Galactic rule was realistically in his future being a Jedi Master and member of the council was the highest power he could attain. Stating he was perfectly happy being a humble knight forever before the news of Padme' s pregnancy would ring false for me if it made it into the movies.
    Count Yubnub likes this.
  6. Havok176

    Havok176 Jedi Knight star 1

    Feb 6, 2016
    I dont think he was content about being a jedi knight forever it just wasn't a priority at that moment. Padme was a more urgent matter. In the movies when he and Obi Wan were talking after he was denied mastery he even said he never asked for any of this. Its him being disrespected that pissed him off.

    In the novel they address this same as the movie with some more details along with the holocron plot more clearly.

    Anakin- I have the power of any five Masters. Any ten. You know it, and so do they. They’re the ones who call me the chosen one! Chosen for what? To be a dupe in some slimy political game?

    Obi Wan- Didn’t I warn you, Anakin? I told you of the … tension … between the Council and the Chancellor. I was very clear. Why didn’t you listen? You walked right into it! However it happened, you are in a very … delicate situation.

    Aankin- What situation? Who cares about me?I’m no Mas-ter, I’m just a kid, right? Is that what it’s about? Is Master Windu turning everyone against me because until I came along, he was the youngest Jedi ever named to the Council? It has to do with them all being against me. They always have been—most of them didn’t even want me to be a Jedi. And if they’d won out, where would they be right now? Who would have done the things I’ve done? Who would have saved Naboo? Who would have saved Kamino? Who would have killed Dooku, and rescued the Chancellor? Who would have come for you and Alpha after Ventress—.

    Obi Wan- Yes, Anakin, yes. Of course. No one questions your accomplishments. It’s your relationship to Palpatine that is the problem. And it is a very serious problem.
    Iron_lord and devilinthedetails like this.
  7. DurararaFTW

    DurararaFTW Jedi Master star 3

    Jul 5, 2014
    I don't think Anakin always tells Obi-Wan the truth. But yes, saving Padme was the greater priority.
  8. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Nov 10, 2011
    This plot point was in the movie:

    PALPATINE: It is upsetting to me to see that the Council doesn't seem to fully appreciate your talents. Don't you wonder why they won't make you a Jedi Master?

    ANAKIN: I wish I knew. More and more I get the feeling that I am being excluded from the Council. I know there are things about the Force that they are not telling me.

    PALPATINE: They don't trust you, Anakin. They see your future. They know your power will be too strong to control.

    The point is that Anakin feels that he's being held back and not being told certain things because his superiors fear and mistrust his power (just as he complains about in Episode II), and that being denied the rank of Master is part of this pattern. Palpatine deftly reinforces these feelings.

    There was no reason to go into unnecessary detail about things like Jedi Archive administrative privileges and explanations about what Holocrons are. It's a pretty simple point: He thinks the Council is jealously guarding secrets from him--like the powers Palpatine spoke about at the opera--because they're afraid of him.
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019
    wobbits, Tonyg, ThisIsTheWay and 6 others like this.
  9. Subtext Mining

    Subtext Mining Jedi Master star 3

    Apr 27, 2016
    Yeah, this is an intriguing detail, but I feel it works only in the medium of the novel. For one, this detail is only conveyed via the monologue narration of Anakin's own inner imagination, which is not a method Lucas employs in his films. (The echoing memory of Palpatine's actual words, which serve as a crucial hinge point, is different). Two, if it were to be mentioned somehow, it would be too distracting a detail or tangent, and would disrupt the pared down streamline of the film.
    Like Phantom Calamari said, the three lines between Palpatine and Anakin were enough to get the point across that Anakin wanted to be a Master for privileges to knowledge. Plus, the fact he immediately turned to Yoda for advice after his first nightmare shows that he was taking the Jedi route before resorting to the dark side.
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019
    Tonyg, Deliveranze and Count Yubnub like this.
  10. Deliveranze

    Deliveranze Force Ghost star 6

    Nov 28, 2015
    No. I feel there were multiple factors contributing to Anakin's fall. Anakin went to Yoda for advice and didn't get any answer he was looking for. Having that plot point return when Anakin hears about saving others from death at the opera is where his motivation stems from. However, Palpatine wedging the trust between him and the Jedi is a different plot that converges later. Anakin's anger doesn't necessarily stem from not being granted the rank of master. He is aware that the Council won't accept it.

    "Me? A master? The Council elects its own members, they'll never accept this."

    Even when Yoda says this is disturbing, Anakin replies with, "I understand." Anakin realizes his role as representative on Palpatine's orders puts the Jedi in an awkward position.

    The anger comes from the Council giving him a position and not giving him a rank
    "How can you be on the Council and not be a master?" Anakin has no authority on the Council so he can't see any reason they would accept him unless there is something they aren't saying. Its also because it has never happened before.
    "Its never been done in the history of the Jedi, its insulting."

    Now one can argue that Anakin knew he was only a representative for Palpatine so he should of kept his expectations in the decision making of the Council in check, but its heavily implied his role on the Council was to be a Jedi Master who happened to be Palpatine's consultant. As said before, no Jedi Knight has been accepted onto the Council. Anakin shares the information about Grievous to the Council under Palpatine's orders and says he would lead the campaign. This implies Anakin thought his role would be equal to the Council, except he would have more insight into the government than the other Jedi. This is shown when Mace replies that the Council will decide who goes. If Anakin was an equal member, his input would be at least considered, but Mace almost isolates Anakin from the discussion. "The Council will make up its own mind, not the Chancellor." The subtext here is that Mace is saying Anakin isn't part of the Council, he is an extension of Palpatine's will.

    When Obi-Wan admits they accepted him only to see where his loyalty lies, that is what makes Anakin angry.

    He talks to Padme about it too, and there's no implication he is just mad because he can't get into the archives.

    However when Palpatine tells him it is possible to save Padme, Anakin thinks maybe that the Jedi do have this power and are lying to him. This is reiterated by the "More and more i get the feeling im being excluded by the Council."

    So it goes from "they don't trust me, to they are using me, to maybe they know more than they say."
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019
    Tonyg, Libs, Alexrd and 2 others like this.
  11. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Knight star 3

    Aug 11, 2019
    Obi-Wan wanted to be a Jedi master. Obi-Wan wanted Qui-Gon Jinn to be a member of the Council. Anakin had assumed he would become a master the moment he became a member of the Council. And he was upset when that didn't happen.
  12. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Aug 8, 2016
    I think this was a major difference between the novelization and the movie.

    And in general I think they both work-Anakin would want access to knowledge only masters might have access to, and he just wants the recognition of being a master.

    Personally though, if I had to say I preferred one I prefer the movie version.

    Anakin’s desire to save Padme is a separate concern and frustration than his feeling slighted and disrespected by the council, and his sense that he deserves the rank.

    They don’t have to be connected. And I think that sub plot works well in the scope of increasing anakin’s isolation and sense of simmering fury at the council.

    He has the power, the accolades, the skill and they deny him a rank he definitely deserves? And also tell him to just let Padme go?
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2019
    wobbits and Deliveranze like this.
  13. The Legions of Lettow

    The Legions of Lettow Jedi Master star 5

    Oct 14, 2015
    If Ahsoka hadn’t left the Order, wouldn’t Anakin have been promoted to Master? Isn’t that the precondition—except for EU Jorus C’Baoth and his clone Joruus? If you successfully get a Padawan like Kenobi with Anakin post-Geonosis and pre-Christophsis promoted to Jedi Knight, you become a Master. And I believe the same with Dooku in Dooku: Lost Jedi. Just as Kenobi didn’t need to undergo the Trials because of defeating Darth Maul on Naboo, and presumably the same for Anakin on Geonosis, the Jedi Council tell Ahsoka that she had passed her Trials with her ordeal on Coruscant. So, if she had accepted their welcoming her back into the Order, wouldn’t Anakin have been promoted to Master? To which we could also add that with Jedi dying and at least a couple going dark in the Clone Wars, the Jedi needed new Masters to train new Padawans.
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2020
    Iron_lord likes this.
  14. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Sep 16, 2005
    One doesn't have to have the rank of "Master" to train a padawan. One who trains a padawan either has the rank of "Master"or the courtesy title/not rank of "Master." As I've said many times before, in the Navy, the Captain of a ship might have the rank of Commander.
    Iron_lord likes this.
  15. Darth Vader's Chest Plate

    Darth Vader's Chest Plate Jedi Master star 2

    Mar 18, 2013
    So it loops back to the line in ANH :

    Darth Vader:
    I've been waiting for you, Obi-Wan. We meet again, at last. The circle is now complete. When I met you I was but the learner. Now, *I* am the master.

    Only a master of evil, Darth.

    Is it a craving for power or recognition and acceptance?
  16. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Knight star 3

    Aug 11, 2019
    Um . . . no. I don't think it was necessary to add more to this matter, considering it was not the main reason for Anakin embracing evil.
    Deliveranze likes this.
  17. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Nov 10, 2011
    Anakin's desire to become a master, and thus (in his mind) learn forbidden secrets that would allow him to save Padme, was indeed the main reason for him embracing evil. All throughout the trilogy Anakin is seeking more power, more recognition, more authority, more control. It's all connected for him.

    So I think it's perfectly legitimate to connect the two lines.
  18. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Knight star 3

    Aug 11, 2019
    No, I don't agree. Becoming a Jedi Master was not the only road to acquiring knowledge of this "power". Anakin had never sought a role on the Jedi Council to begin with. He only became a member because Palpatine wanted him there. He had assumed that he would automatically become a master when he joined the Council and was surprised and disappointed that he didn't. But this was not a major reason that led him to become evil. This incident was only one of many that led him to become disenchanted with the Jedi. I believe it would not have made sense to make this a bigger issue than it was.
  19. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Nov 10, 2011
    Of course it was a major reason. Otherwise the movie wouldn't have wasted its time with it.

    Anakin wants to be a master because he wants more power. He wants more power so that he can do things like use the Force to save people from dying:

    ANAKIN: Someday I will be. I will be the most powerful Jedi ever! I promise you. I will even learn to stop people from dying.

    PADME: Anakin.

    ANAKIN: It's all Obi-Wan's fault! He's jealous! He's holding me back!

    He thinks the Jedi are holding him back because they're afraid of him. He thinks they're withholding from him the knowledge and power that he craves. Their refusal to make him a master plays into all of Anakin's fears and suspicions, and Palpatine takes advantage of it:

    PALPATINE: It is upsetting to me to see that the Council doesn't seem to fully appreciate your talents. Don't you wonder why they won't make you a Jedi Master?

    ANAKIN: I wish I knew. More and more I get the feeling that I am being excluded from the Council. I know there are things about the Force that they are not telling me.

    PALPATINE: They don't trust you, Anakin. They see your future. They know your power will be too strong to control. Anakin, you must break through the fog of lies the Jedi have created around you. Let me help you to know the subtleties of the Force.
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
    Panakas_Dawg likes this.