PT Should Lucas Have Done More to Ensure TPM Didn't Disappoint Some Fans?

Well, he's a very decent man, so I think his sense of duty compels him, as he puts it, to train him "without the approval of the council, if I must."

That certainly does sound to me like he's taking it upon himself to train him, it wasn't part of the duties the Jedi Council assigned to him as part of his being a Jedi. It became something he felt he had a personal responsibility to do.

 

Exactly. Whether he feels compelled by duty or not, it's still something he's taking upon himself. And he could have easily said, "Well, if the Council won't let me, I guess I have no choice. Sorry, Qui-Gon, I tried." But no, he insists, even if it means disobeying the supreme Jedi authority.

 

I’m not going to take the bait; at least not more than I already did LOL
Of the 5 replies to my post, only 1 actually responded to my point. Everyone else seems to just want to debate the specific examples I used. And while I love a spirited Star Wars debate, this one is moot. You can’t control what disappointed me, just like I can’t control what you enjoyed or were disappointed by.

 

So... you found the replies to your post.... disappointing? I think I'm beginning to see a pattern here.

 

They are not outright contradictions (and obviously, not "plot-holes", which means something else entirely); the OT implies some things that the PT did differently, but I don't think they stick out too much when you watch them in chronologicall order.

But in any case, the question is, what's better: to have the better story told in the PT, or to have a story that doesn't work so well just because it matches better with what was implied in the OT?

 

I think the story could have worked just as well and match up with OT implications. I’m not convinced that had to be an “either-or” scenario. Since they are not plot holes (and I agree with you that they are not), matching them up would have satisfied a lot of fans better. And the folks who are ok with the examples I listed would have been just as happy, as they never had an alternate scenario to compare it to.
As it stands, I agree that the better story should be told. I just don’t see how the things I talked about make the story not work so well.

 

Well, in my opinion, Qui-Gonn's role, the fact that he bonds with Anakin while ObiWan doesn't, the fact that Obi-Wan is reluctant at first (and Anakin knows that), the fact that Obi-Wan is thurst into a teacher position without being fully prepared (or convinced) pays off really well, and makes for a better story than Obi-Wan finding Anakin on his own and believing in him from the begining (this is what happened in the first draft of TPM, and Lucas clearly thought it worked better with Qui-Gonn instead). Now, you're saying that Lucas should've aborted this story and go with a different one JUST because Obi-Wan didn't mention Qui-Gonn in ROTJ.

Using the same argument, you could say that Lucas shouldn't have made Vader Luke's father because it contradicted ANH, and he could've had a good story in Empire and "be just as happy".

 

There’s no reason to eliminate Qui-Gon altogether. Just off the top of my head: maybe Obi-Wan just completed his apprenticeship with Yoda and this is his first mission. He is paired with a more experienced Knight or master on the mission. Everything else plays out pretty much the same.

My issues are minor; the more major criticisms I’ve heard are usually child Anakin and Jar Jar, neither of which I really have much issue with.
As for ESB, who’s to say it was better? For example, if it had been Obi-wan killed Luke’s father, it would have added even more conflict between a Luke and his mentor. Instead we have him trying to save a father he’s never known, has no real connection with, and who is pretty evil.
It’s a “what if” game. We got what we got. Some iterations might have been better, some might have been worse. We’ll never know. I still saw TPM 8 times in the theater a wore out my first VHS tape of it. Do the things I mentioned cause me disappointment? Yes. And my issue is that since they are minor, they could have easily been changed and satisfied a lot of fans better.

 

It's a stronger story if there's an established father/son relationship between Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan which plays off the developing father/son relationship between Qui-Gon and Anakin and introduces an element of sibling jealousy on Obi-Wan's part. It also increases the emotional impact on Obi-Wan when Qui-Gon is killed. I don't understand what's so catastrophic about Obi-Wan simply having an additional mentor we didn't know about that it's worth sacrificing those things.

 

Or, if we went a different route than my first suggestion, we could have similar moments and relationship between Yoda and Obi-Wan. I’d sacrifice the Qui-Gon character for that in a heartbeat. Yoda was already a meaningful character to us before the PT, and I would have really enjoyed that relationship. The “what if” possibilities are near infinite.
Either way, I’m not sure how it got to “catastrophic” when I’ve already said that I liked the film and the issues are minor.

I’m also not sure what the purpose of all this is. Are people taking issue with the examples I used? Are they trying to convince me I wasn’t a bit disappointed when I left the movie theater 20 years ago? I’m sure everyone has had some disappointment from one or more of the movies from the 3 trilogies and 2 anthology movies. I came late to this thread (35 pages late, LOL) and was just trying to answer the OP’s question. If nobody else was disappointed, then I am glad you had a thoroughly enjoyable viewing experience

 

Personally, I'd like to think there's still a chance the relationship between Yoda and a younger Obi-Wan than the one from TPM could be explored someday, maybe in an animated or live-action series.

I came away from TPM without any major disappointment... I was just glad that George had gotten off his behind and started working on SW again. He certainly didn't need to do it for the money. I loved every minute of it.

 

But Yoda probably did train Obi-Wan before the latter became Qui-Gon's padawan. "Attack of the Clones" did establish that Yoda had trained younglings before they became a Knight or Master's apprentice.

I wouldn't. He is my favorite character in the entire saga. And I thought he had cast an effective, yet unspoken shadow upon Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship. I am so glad that Lucas had invented him.

 

I really love Qui-Gon too. I think he adds a lot of heart to the film, and his death in TPM not only creates more emotion in the duel with Maul, but adds a lot more complexity to the Anakin/Obi-Wan relationship

 

Yeah. And Qui-Gonn being the master allows Obi-Wan's character to grow through the trilogy as well, because he starts off as the apprentice.

Qui-Gonn is one of the best things about the TPM (he is the leading character, and a charismatic character to follow through the story) and the PT in general (as others have said, he casts an unspoken shadow in the Obi/Anakin relationship).

Diminishing his role (and his purpose, ultimately) just to make things match up with something Ben said in ROTJ (made in 1983, when Lucas obviously couldn't have developed the best possible story for a future episode I) is not a good move.

 

Yoda can't serve the role of the masculine role model nearly as effectively as Liam Neeson did as Qui-Gon Jinn. Yoda is an impish little Muppet whose appeal comes in large part from how cute he is. Yoda wouldn't be nearly as effective in that role as an actual human man who audience members can relate to the same way they'd relate to their actual father.

You're free to bow out of the discussion at any time.

 

Regarding the thread question, no, Lucas didn't have to do anything. Ultimately, it's his vision and it's the story he wants to tell. I find that stories made primarily by one individual tend to be far more memorable and interesting than those written by committee which is pretty much what would've had to be done to "satisfy everyone" at the time.

Regarding the current discussion, I agree that Qui-Gon was a great character and addition to the saga. Well worth making one or two lines in the OT seem a little off so that we could see a character with their own take on the Jedi. One of my favorites.

 

And as usual, I'd like to point out that Obi-Wan's third line in the very first minute of the movie is literally a reference to some instruction given to him by Yoda, as if Lucas wanted to head off any objections as soon as he possibly could.

Well, he tried anyway.

 

Obi Wan got more growth from having Qui-Gon be around. because it meant Obi Wan went from Padawan to Master himself.

 

That’s a no for me. It’s important that a artist sticks with his vision. Weather it makes people mad or not

 

My first response in this thread probably says differently, but I agree with @Jedi Knight Fett

 

Lucas wanted to carry out his vision. And he did weather we like it or not

 

No, he shouldn't have done more to ensure that it didn't disappoint fans. He made the movie he wanted to make, and from there, the fans can either like it or dislike it.

 

Film is like any art. Should Picasso have listened to “fans” when making his art?

 

The problem with this question is this assumption that everyone did not like "The Phantom Menace". And the movie does have its fans. Also, the idea of Lucas including every little plot point to please the fans, instead of telling the story that he wanted to tell is a bit abhorrent to me.

 

Isn't this what Disney tried to do with the Sequel trilogy?