PT Should Lucas Have Done More to Ensure TPM Didn't Disappoint Some Fans?

It's not an impression, it's the fact that these days, when we, the PT fans, got wonderful news about Obi-Wan TV series, most of the comments are just pure bashing. On social media every single comment tries to pander the majority by saying how Hayden is a bad actor, he worked with a bad script and bad director and here's his chance to redeem himself, or the series can redeem the PT. In a sea of really stupid comments, probably the most stupid are the articles of so called movie media where they state that Vader's No at the end of ROTS is something cringeworthy.
Yes, the PT ended 16 years ago on a high note, but it's stil a magnet where people can gather likes on just pure negativity.

 

The genius of Star Wars and Lucas is that it's aimed at everyone, from a certain point of view. I grew up with the OT and loved it for one reason, and when I got older, I started to love it on a different level. TPM is no different as kids can enjoy it because of the action, the space battles and lightsaber battle at the end. Adults can enjoy it on a political level as Palpatine is manipulating the whole galaxy for 3 movies, no different than how Hitler took power in the 1930's.

Again, that is the genius of the movies because each person sees the movies differently and that is how Lucas makes them. Some people enjoy the PT for Anakin's story, others like me love to watch it for the rise of Palpatine. Some people enjoy the OT for Darth Vader's story, some enjoy it for Luke's story, some just enjoy it for Han, Luke and Leia's rebellion story. Lucas was smart enough to understand that he couldn't only play to the OT fans in 1999 (a mistake Disney made with the ST). He created a whole new fanbase in 1999 of PT fans, and that was a good thing in the end.

 

Between the PT and his special editions, Lucas essentially told his old fanbase to either accept the changes or get lost. So he may have created a new fanbase, but he didn't really care about his old one.

 

No.
To do something for that inadequate morons with raped childhood is nothing but to disrespect yourself.

 

No.

In life, you are not going to please everyone. Unfortunately objectivity is subjective.

 

I don't see what that has to to with my post.

I said that both the ST and the PT have seen a certain amount of hatred, but that due to the reasons I have given, the hatred for the ST might feel more pronounced right now, even though the extend of it might actually be a bit less than it was back then. In other words: claiming that the ST is more hated doesn't match the actual evidence, it's just that the PT is way further in the past and just not talked about that much anymore, which could give some people the impression that the hatred thrown at it wasn't as bad as the hatred thrown at the ST. That obviously doesn't work out, because you have to look at the hatred spewed at a similar time, not when one is fresh and still somewhat talked about, while the other is in the distant past and rarely mentioned.

On a seperate note, I have no idea where you get the idea from that most comments about the Obi Wan tv-show are pure bashing, as that couldn't be further from the truth. Some hateful comments did indeed return, but the large majority was extremely positive about the return.

He did no such thing. He made movies, and people were free to like or dislike them, just as before. To act as if somehow old fans definately didn't like his new material is disingenuous and an insult to those fans who liked the movies. Which, by all accounts, was still the majority.

Your comment just reeks of entitlement. Having watched Star Wars in the past doesn't somehow make it yours. Lucas continued to tell HIS story. He didn't force anyone to do anything, he merely continued to do what he had done before. You not liking the new stuff isn't somehow something Lucas should have taken into consideration. He doesn't exist to please everybody. He told his story in the OT, and he continued to tell his story in the PT. Some people liked that, some didn't. That's completely normal. Stating that he should have "cared about his old fans" is just weird. Especially since you directly indicate that you somehow represent what "the old fans" think, in complete disregard of what the overall feeling of those "old fans" might actually be.

 

The people who liked the prequels were very quiet in that case. because i remember so much bashing of the PT. it almost seemed like it was a fact that the PT sucked and everyone agreed. to the point now where there are people still bashing the PT and they are shocked by the uprise in defenders backing the bashers into a corner. which never used to be a thing. so PT bashing has now become so outdated thats its slowly fading out.

 

Lucas built an Empire off of a fanbase who liked three specific films. Lucas then said that those three specific films were never going to be released in any higher quality than laserdisc and to either fall in line with his special editions or to get lost. So Lucas very much did decide he did not care about any of his fans who liked the theatrical versions of the OT and wanted them in high def. We still don't have an official release of the theatrical cuts of the OT in any quality above laserdisc transfers. The fans who want that have consistently been told to GET LOST.

You may disagree with how I previously went about saying that, but now that I've clarified my point I really don't see how you can argue against it.

 

The vast majority of his "old" fanbase accepted the changes and bought the new versions of the movie. The success of the re-releases wasn't entirely or even significantly because of a completely new generation of fans that sprung up out of nowhere. Those who are so angry about the changes that they refuse to pay for the new versions are a small but vocal minority of the "old" fanbase.

Even accepting the argument that Lucas should do whatever the old fans want him to do, why should he do what a minority of the old fans want him to do? Or at least want him to do so badly they'll put their money where their mouth is, which most of them aren't willing to do.

 

I already clarified what I meant by "old fanbase" in my later post. And you claiming it's a minority is correct, but Lucas still decided he didn't care about that minority of fans. Lucas doesn't have to cater to everyone, but I also don't have to buy Lucasfilm products.

Lucas decided that a small percentage of his fans weren't important to him anymore; that's a fact. I do not know why people always have to argue about this.

 

Oh I can very easily argue against it, mostly by using facts instead of entitlement.

The whole argument makes no sense at all. Lucas released movies, no one was forced to watch them, or buy them. You liking these movies doesn't give you any ownership. You got what you paid for and that's it. Lucas, and only Lucas, had the right to do with his work whatever he wanted to do with it. He didn't tell anyone to get lost. He eventually proceeded to make changes to the movies, be it in the form of additional content, or to update some technological parts of it and offered people to buy them if they wanted to. They were once again free to do so.

Pretending that you somehow deserved to constantly get updates on these movies in exactly the form you wanted them to be is nothing but entitlement. The majority of movies never got further releases or were updated to newer standards at all. Yet here you are, acting as if there was some sort of god-given right for you to get exactly what you want.

At no point did Lucas ever tell anyone to get lost. It's just insulting to suggest otherwise.

And once again, "caring" has nothing to do with it. He went on to work on his creation. That's his choice. No one - absolutely no one - has anything to do with that. He didn't "stop caring", as that would imply he could have known what every single person would think. He didn't make any decision to cast anyone aside either. All he did, was work on stuff he liked working on, offering people to buy those things if they were interested. All you are doing here, is basically holding a creative person ransom. He must do what you want him to do, or he is betraying you. Thats no different than telling a band that they have to make the exact music you like, turning the whole concept upside down. It's the band that gets to decide what they are interested in, and everyone else is free to either buy into that or not. It most definately isn't within your right to demand that those people cater to you.

Maybe people wouldn't have to argue about this if you wouldn't lie about him...

 

He didn’t say “get lost.” More like “this is what I’m doing now, check it out.”

 

Oh, is he going to Check it Out with Dr. Steve Brule?

 

Its abit like what Lucas said about the Sequels he wanted to make and sadly its probably true. Lucas admitted Fans would probably of hated his sequel trilogy, but as he stated. At least the whole story from start to end would have been told.

 

For argument's sake lets accept that premise and look at the follow-up from that:

The "SE" versions of the OT (of which there have been several variations) are massive successes at the box office, VHS, laserdisc, DVD, BD and digital release. So the fans who were told to "get lost" and actually did so are relatively few. So those who actually liked and were that attached to the theatrical versions to the degree you're talking about is pretty slight overall. For most of those who have some feelings that way decided it wasn't some deal breaker and went ahead and bought the various SE versions over and over again.

The reason is pretty simple because even for those who would love to have the "original" theatrical cuts (which is a pretty general term since there are various different versions of the originals) weren't bothered that Lucas wanted his own SE/director's cuts out. They were perfectly fine with them. All they wanted was the option to get the "originals" as well.

Except he didn't really build his empire off of a fanbase who liked three specific films. He built his empire off of the general audience who liked his first three specific Star Wars films then did so again off of the audience who liked his second set of three specific Star Wars films. The only actual difference is that the first set of films was ultra super massive successes while the second set were regular super massive successes. Comparable to other contemporary franchises at the time like Spider-Man, LOTR and Harry Potter.

I think Lucas could have saved himself a lot of bother by just releasing regular DVD quality versions of the "originals" but he simply wasn't interested in doing that as an artist and business-wise there was nothing to show him that there was any actual demand that was of any significance to do so.

I'd disagree with him on that. Any ST that Disney would have made that was actually influenced by and based on Lucas' ideas would have had the "cover" of not being solely crafted by him.

Those who created the bogus narrative around TESB (and the OT in general) of "Lucas is a great ideas guy but he should leave everything else to others" would be able to propagate that. That's the same one that was played for the PT where "the ideas were good but the execution was terrible" and also for TCW where "Look how great that was with Lucas just giving the story while others did the script and direction".

I think that would have been the narrative device that all those writers who wouldn't, couldn't and didn't want to give any much credit to Lucas would have used. That is how it was already trending when the ST was announced and it was thought that Lucas' stories were being used.

 

Yeah I don't understand what you mean when you say he decided they "weren't important to him anymore." I'm not important to George Lucas either. I'm not his friend and I'm not related to him. I'm just someone who engaged in some financial transactions with his company.

I'm sure George Lucas appreciates his fans in a general sense but to argue about who among the fanbase is and isn't "important" to him just doesn't mean anything, it's a semantic void that has nothing to do with his creative or business decisions.

 

I don't know about "on me" as such. That simply was your reaction to it. For myself it was the opposite as I felt it was at once totally in line with the OT while suitably removed at the same time. It couldn't just be the same thing but as per the story setting up the later stories. It wouldn't make much sense if it had the same distinct feel because a Republic falling should be different than an Empire vs a Rebellion.

Strong dialogue, excellent acting and character development with the same underlying amount of humor but tailored to the situation. I see the same film-maker at work in both trilogies. The only difference to me is that he was that much better and experienced at getting what he wanted on the PT. Of course he also had a very specific path to go on to connect it to the OT whereas the OT had far greater adjustments from movie to movie.

For those that feel that way.

Obviously not but the problem becomes when those who criticize take the tactic that their criticisms are completely objective for everyone as opposed to subjectively correct for themselves. The old "Hey if you like a bad movie that's fine with me. I'm not going to stop you."

He always did. Then he did what he thought was best. Yet for whatever reason there is this odd idea that somehow this differed between the two trilogies where on the OT he listened to others more and on the PT more to himself. Like he wasn't talking to people on the PT and somehow became insulated from

I'd say that more than a bit much was made of that. It's not so much that cut was "better" as much as it was that was the only way it could be cut. As Kershner himself explained his standard practice to protect his movie's cut was to effectively shoot it in such a way as that he was effectively editing it "live on set". That's why he was so slow and deliberate and everything fell behind. Kershner simply didn't shoot the coverage to allow for editing choices.

Besides that a lot of TESB was "Lucas" cut anyway as Kershner's main concern (and what he was explicitly brought on for) was to draw out a more emotional aspect for the live action shoot with the actors. I don't think it's much to say that it was Lucas' cut for the battle of Hoth or the Asteroid field or anything that had lots of action or movement.

My suspicion is that Lucas probably was unaware of this and thought that Kershner was taking so long to shoot because he was shooting lots of material that could then be editorially manipulated in post. Giving himself lots of options for putting a scene together. Far more than Lucas himself would. His technique was to get what he needed on set then work on that in the edit. That's the "documentary" approach of his technique.

Instead it turned out that Kershner was shooting a lot of material because he was doing this "live editing" technique. Shooting then discarding what he wasn't going to use in "real time". When shooting lots of masters like Lucas did that gave high flexibility to cut takes together which is seemingly exactly the opposite of what was being done on the movie. Everything was being fit together on the day to day of the shoot. A director shooting and editing at the same time is going to be very slow. Which it was.

The kind of motion flow and camera movement that TESB did for those scenes was so different from ANH that one can see that trying to cut that in the documentary style would have been very jarring unless the master material was there to work from.

 

I don't think it would have mattered tbh. there has been a change in fan opinion thats evolved since 2014. so what fans wanted back then and what fans want now has changed. what did fans want back in 2014? they wanted Star wars to be like the OT. and there was alot of bashing of the PT back then. many were happy Star Wars was taken away from Lucas.

Course fans got what they wanted. it scratched that itch. but then people started to want something more bold and less similar.

Now if we jump ahead to now. it does seem like the PT has been given a new lease of life. Disney Star wars is progressing to elements of the PT era (and Clone wars) being perhaps the strongest element of this Disney era. and thats taken years to evolve into. for some reason.

So if things had been different. i don't think people would have changed their minds about Lucas. you don't know what you lost until its gone.

Its also kinda unfortunate that i think Clone Wars is more popular now days then it was when Lucas was involved and it was on cartoon network. rumour suggests Lucas was paying for the show himself and may have been losing more money than profiting.

 

It doesn't mean anything to you, but it does to others.

 

Yeah, exactly this. I actually find that TPM is one of the most enjoyable SW films for me as an adult. Qui-Gon, Shmi and their understated chemistry, the mood of the Coruscant sections, the decided normalcy of Palpatine and his antagonistic actions, so much of the film strikes me as unique compared to the Star Wars norm. "Sophisticated" might be overselling, but then again it's honestly one of the few SW films that doesn't immediately make me feel like I'm watching an exercise in simple brand extension.

 

Yes. Yes George W. Lucas should have done more to ensure Star Wars Episode 1 - The Phantom Menace did not disappoint some fans. Such a wasted opportunity. It’s indicative of the thinking and ways society began changing in the 1990s. Lucas’s half measures. Something for everyone. Inclusivity. BS if you ask me.

Lucas should have gone all the way and done it right. The Phantom Menace should have disappointed all fans. No one should find anything to like in these movies. Get everyone to grow up and move on after selling them all the toys before seeing the movie.

Here are ways Lucas could have improved Episode 1 to disappoint all fans.

1) Opening title reads Star Trek instead of Star Wars.

2) takes place in 1990s London. But everyone says they are in Australia

3) Original Trilogy actors return clearly making this not a prequel but a sequel.

4) Total movie run time plus credits 22 minutes.

5) shot on VHS and in camera edited

6) tickets sold for $250 each and must be paid for with a money order.

7) Math test required to purchase ticket

8) instead of new musical score - film uses soundtrack cues from E.T., Willow, and Glory soundtracks.

9) No wars in movie

10) No part of movie is in space

11) No Obi-Wan Kennobi, but a guy named Ken.

12) Newest alien species are house cats

13) Rian Johnson hired to direct movie.

14) Include Jar Jar Binks

15) main character is played by a mop bucket

16) Chewbacca doesn’t quite look right

17) Darth Vader says ‘no’

18) acting is either too wooden and theatrical or so naturalistic it seems like people just talking unaware they are in a movie.

19) Your mom has a lengthy - non-sexual - nude scene

20) part of movie has no sound.

21) reels of the film out of order

22) while watching the movie all your cars in the parking lot are towed away

23) No laser gun

24) two characters only speak in rhymes

25) Gives away the ending of the 6th Sense months before its release.


I gotta run, but will copy the other 175 suggestions later in another post.

 

Yes, I know it means something to you. A lot of people find meaning in a lot of things, in the privacy of their own homes. Nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't really mean a whole lot in the wide world outside, unless you can explain it in a way that actually has any chance of moving the needle.

 

I find it funny that you admit Lucas doesn't really care about any of this, yet you have felt the urge to jump to his defense about something that he objectively did. If you care so little about this, admitting that no needle has been moved, then why keep replying to me?

When I see people yelling into the void, I leave them be. But it seems like whenever a person begins speaking of the original cuts of of the OT films and Lucas's decision to never release them in HD quality, there is this mentality to quickly get them to stop speaking of such things. You act as though I'm just yelling into the void, yet you want me to stop; something isn't adding up here.

 

Because I like you.

I don't want you to stop. I enjoy this.

 

While I'm largely in agreement with you, I feel the need to point out that most classic films like SW have gotten updated home video releases and that if you look at other films for which multiple versions exist (Superman II, Blade Runner, LOTR, E.T., etc.) both the original cuts and the later versions have been made available, at least in HD.