Should the phrase "under God" be taken out of the United States Pledge of Allegiance?

(a) no church is involved (the general "God" does not imply any particular religion, much less any church).

tell me truthfully. Would you feel the same way if we changed the word "God" into "Allah", "Shiva", or "Satan"? All are worshipped as deities, so it's saying the same thing. Would you be offended? Heinlein said that the one way to know if a deal is fair is to switch it around. Would it be fair if you were the one who's god was not mentioned?


(b) it is optional.


no, it's not. it's part of the Pledge. Some people don't say it; that doesn't make it optional.

 

If we take out God in the pledge, soon we'll have to take out God on everything else.


"In God We Trust" is on every single peice of money (American currency mind you) we handle. If we take that out, what's gonna replace it. I don't feel comfortable holding a dollar with "In Wal-Mart We Trust" written all over it.


I don't think no one would like that.

 

"If we take out God in the pledge, soon we'll have to take out God on everything else."

that right!

 

bountyhunter is right!

 

Of course I am.

 

If we take out God in the pledge, soon we'll have to take out God on everything else.

yeah, that's the idea. Seperation of church and state, remember?


"In God We Trust" is on every single peice of money (American currency mind you) we handle. If we take that out, what's gonna replace it. I don't feel comfortable holding a dollar with "In Wal-Mart We Trust" written all over it.

who said you'd replace it with anything? Or maybe just put E Pluribus Unum on the coins, and just strike it entirely from the bills. After all, our nation's slogan is "E Pluibus Unum" and not "In God We Trust".


I don't think no one would like that.


Define "no one". I sure would like that.

 

Liz Skywalker...

"tell me truthfully. Would you feel the same way if we changed the word "God" into "Allah", "Buddha", or "Satan"? All are worshipped as deities, so it's saying the same thing."

Excuse me. Are you serious about that line of reasoning...because I find it very unorthodox. I WILL tell you truthfully how I would feel. I would be apalled. But thank God that the pledge does not further explicate the type of divinity it refers to. How on earth is it the same thing? God is implicit and inclusive of "Allah," "Buddha," "Krishna," and everything else. "Allah," "Buddha," "Krishna," and anything more specific is exclusive of ALL other alternatives.

"Heinlein said that the one way to know if a deal is fair is to switch it around."

Heinlein was either drunk or stoned. Or, you are simply taking his advice out of context, because your argument makes no sense whatsoever. If you change "the deal" like THAT, it is no longer the same deal. So whats the point???

 

even if the 'god' in the pledge referred to all dieties what about those who don't believe in ANY dieties (like me). i'm strongly against the belief in the existence of any higher power at all. the word 'god' offends me.

~NiKe, DaRK LaDy oF THe SiTH~

 

"yeah, that's the idea. Seperation of church and state, remember?"

I find your sense of priorities disturbing.

Do you really think that our country (so increasingly apathetic and wishy washy about religion) could possibly return to the time where a particular set of religious values are violently forced upon unbelievers?

In being so adamant to prevent something that is nearly impossible, we are endorsing a much greater problem.

Only in the 20th century has the phenomenon of a growing mass indifference towards religion been observed. People either simply do not care or it is trendy to be an atheist. The question of all importance is now of no importance.

No Mrs. Liz Skywalker, I think we are well away from the time of religious persecution...perhaps to far away.

 

NIkeSkylark, if I were you, I would either refuse to recite the pledge or leave out the "Under God," part.

As to being offended...offense does not justify changing the pledge. Another aspect of our country is the fact that we are all alowed to offend one another.

 

i just don't recite it at all. i just stand up.

~NiKe, DaRK LaDy oF THe SiTH~

 

Could someone answer me this:


Why doesn't the POA make all Americans feel included when they say it?


Latre!

 

["In God We Trust" is on every single peice of money (American currency mind you) we handle. If we take that out, what's gonna replace it. I don't feel comfortable holding a dollar with "In Wal-Mart We Trust" written all over it.]

Prior to the mid-50s revision of the pledge and money, neither had the word god on them. I don't understand why the concept of just returning it to its original state is so hard to "get". The country didn't crumble into bits before the addition and it certainly will not if we remove it.

Personally, I like the original pledge, with the word "indivisible" that "under god" replaced much better. It puts forth the ideal of strength in unity, something our country sorely needs.

 

No matter how much we argue about whether or not "under God" should be taken out of the pledge, it's never gonna pass with the Supreme Court.

It's too stupid! Why would they change it? And why would they listen to those pot-smoking liberal judges from San Francisco?


Also, I"m surprised one little Athiest got this far.


If they decide to change the pledge, I think I'll lose faith in our country's future.

 

I think we are well away from the time of religious persecution...perhaps to far away.

George Bush Sr. seems to believe that atheists should not be considered citizens or patriots. I don't think that's a happy thought for atheists and agnostics.

From: http://www.religioustolerance.org/atheist.htm

George H.W. Bush, as Presidential Nominee for the Republican party; 1987-AUG-27: "No, I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God."

If our [former] leaders are willing to state this publically, how can you say that persecution doesn't exist?

 

I agree with Bush Sr.

 

If they decide to change the pledge, I think I'll lose faith in our country's future.

Why? The country stood for nearly 200 years without it.

 

i've lost faith in this country a long time ago...

~NiKe, DaRK LaDy oF THe SiTH~

 

Bounty Hunter 2999:

Basing citizenship on religious affiliation is about as UN-American as one could get.

 

Well you probably ate paint chips as a child, so that's understandable, Bountyhunter.

 

SoK: was that directed to me???

~NiKe, DaRK LaDy oF THe SiTH~

 

Religion is what inspires this country to be great.


Not money, not power, not allied forces, not the people, not the government, and not any other damn thing on this planet.


Also, if they want God out of everything here (separation of church and state) then why not take God (or anyother god) in all the other countries. Then we can all be sacriligious jackasses!!!


Also, SOK, I'm really getting sick and tired of you.

 

i took some time to quickly type up a few choice quotes that i have collected over the years. if the spelling is off or something it was becoz i was typing it up really fast and wasn't looking at the keys.



"question with boldness even the existance of a god: because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfoldered fear" - thomas jefferson

"the fact that mankind has the capability to discern logic from myth, and the fact that religion asks us to ignore this ability and accept faith is one of the many contradictions that make any faith-based organizations simply ludicrous" - vic sinclair

"we must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful god, who creates faulty humans, and then vlames them for his own mistakes" - gene roddenberry

"to explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" - david brooks

"the notion that faith in christ is to be rewarded by an eternity of bliss, while a dependence upon reason, ovservation, and experience merits everlasting pain, it too absurd for refutation, and can be relieved only by that unhappy mixture of insanity and ignorance called 'faith'" - robert g ingersoll

"it is sad that while science moves ahead in exciting new areas of research, fine-tuning our knowledge of how life originated and evolved, creationists remain mired in medieval debates about angels on the head of a pin and animals in the belly of an ark" - michael shermer

"i refuse to be labeled immoral merely because i am godless" - peter walker

"like all religions, the holy religion of the invisible pink unicorn is based upon both logic and faith. we have faither that she is pink: and we logically know that she is invisible because we can't see her. for many faith is a suitable substiture for knowledge, as death is for a difficult life"

"this sort of behavior is left to the psychotic, dogmatic, fundametalist believers you see on tv everyday letting off bombs and killing people in the name of god. beliefs are dangerous. beliefs allow the mind to stop functioning. a non-functioning mind is clinically dead. believe in nothing" - tool

"faith may be defined briefly as an illogical belief in the occurence of the improbably... a man full of faith is simply one who has lost (or never had) the capacity for clear and realistic thought. he is not a mere ass; he is accually ill" - hl meneken

"god is a comedian playing to an audience too afriad to laugh" - voltaire



~NiKe, DaRK LaDy oF THe SiTH~

 

I don't agree with any of those.

 

the existance of a higher power is BS

~NiKe, DaRK LaDy oF THe SiTH~