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Should the phrase "under God" be taken out of the United States Pledge of Allegiance?

Discussion in 'Archive: Census and Games' started by Liz Skywalker, Jun 30, 2002.

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Should the phrase "under God" be taken out of the United States Pledge of Allegiance?

Poll closed Mar 24, 2012.
  1. Yes.

    31.5%
  2. No.

    58.0%
  3. It should be made optional, but it shouldn't be stricken.

    3.8%
  4. Undecided.

    0.7%
  5. Don't care either way.

    6.1%
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  1. bountyhunter2999

    bountyhunter2999 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2002
  2. Master-Jedi-Smith

    Master-Jedi-Smith Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 26, 2002
    Well, I'm for all of us being Jackasses.

    Oh wait, we already are! :)

    We will just have to find something else to make ourselves if we remove god/s from everthing.


    Latre! :D
     
  3. NikeSkylark

    NikeSkylark Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 20, 2002
    brain dead...

    ~NiKe, DaRK LaDy oF THe SiTH~
     
  4. bountyhunter2999

    bountyhunter2999 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2002
    (no message)
     
  5. Master-Jedi-Smith

    Master-Jedi-Smith Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 26, 2002
    Such a dirty word! :p

    Hey wait! You just edited your message!

    Latre! :D
     
  6. NikeSkylark

    NikeSkylark Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 20, 2002
    my post was a reponse to your post... since you edited your post i edited mine to be fair

    ~NiKe, DaRK LaDy oF THe SiTH~
     
  7. bountyhunter2999

    bountyhunter2999 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2002
    I was trying to come up with something better, but I couldn't. So, I changed it back.
     
  8. NikeSkylark

    NikeSkylark Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 20, 2002
    okay, then i changed mine back

    ~NiKe, DaRK LaDy oF THe SiTH~
     
  9. bountyhunter2999

    bountyhunter2999 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2002
    Let's settle this.


    Let's stop arguing and continuie to beleive what he do.

    Also, we all seem to be wrong. Everyone else is wrong except for you and what you think. And we're obviously not going to change anyone else's mind. I call truce and we leave it at that.


    Agree?


    For starters, I'm taking back what I said before.
     
  10. NikeSkylark

    NikeSkylark Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 20, 2002
    truce

    does this mean we have to shake hands??? :)

    ~NiKe, DaRK LaDy oF THe SiTH~
     
  11. Master-Jedi-Smith

    Master-Jedi-Smith Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 26, 2002
    Good Lord you two!

    And I mean that in a non-religious manner, or maybe I mean for it to refer to all religions and not just to the christian lord.

    Or, maybe I should just skip that word. Let me try again.

    Good _____ you two!


    Latre! :D
     
  12. bountyhunter2999

    bountyhunter2999 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2002
    Only if you feel if it's neccessary.
     
  13. bountyhunter2999

    bountyhunter2999 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2002
    Even though I strongly disagree with your decisions, I accept them whole-heartedly.
     
  14. Darth_Pseudomorph

    Darth_Pseudomorph Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    "question with boldness even the existance of a god: because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfoldered fear"

    I agree. We should all question the existance of God, to find that all reason points to his existence.

    "the fact that mankind has the capability to discern logic from myth, and the fact that religion asks us to ignore this ability and accept faith is one of the many contradictions that make any faith-based organizations simply ludicrous"

    Religion has never asked us to ignore this capability. We would like to think that it does, to free us from the burdens of understanding its complex rationale. Faith and reason are not mutually exclusive. Sinclair is not awair that he advocates simply another faith -- faith in reason.

    "we must question the logic of having an all-knowing, all-powerful god, who creates faulty humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes"

    This, I admit, sounds good. But it is an excellent example of truthless wit, nothing more. Rodenberry is basing his entire thesis upon faulty assumptions: (a) all deists, theists and pantheists believe that God "blames" his creations. (b) all deists, theists and pantheists believe their frailties clash with the "will" of God (c) all deists, theists and pantheists believe that humans must reckon with inborn frailties, rather than choose between maleficent and beneficent actions (that are not within them).
    Rodenberry effectively establishes his skill with clever wordplay as well as his dubious authority on the whole issue.

    "to explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure. To explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy"

    Your best quote. You should have deleted the others.

    "the notion that faith in christ is to be rewarded by an eternity of bliss, while a dependence upon reason, ovservation, and experience merits everlasting pain, it too absurd for refutation, and can be relieved only by that unhappy mixture of insanity and ignorance called 'faith'"

    Gingersoll makes the same error. He completely ignores the exhaustive philosophical arguments for the existence of God and assumes that "faith in Christ" and reason are mutually exclusive.

    And he dared mention "experience." What a fool. Most devout believers base their faith on personal mystical experiences.

    "it is sad that while science moves ahead in exciting new areas of research, fine-tuning our knowledge of how life originated and evolved, creationists remain mired in medieval debates about angels on the head of a pin and animals in the belly of an ark"

    Shermer sais nothing revalatory here. Its more of a subjective reaction than anything else. However, I believe he is incorrect in referring to religious arguments as "medieval." Is he aware that the intellegentsia of Europe and America have argued on the nature of God and Religion up until the early 20th century?????

    "i refuse to be labeled immoral merely because i am godless"

    Walker makes a good point, but it doesnt have much bearing on this issue.

    "like all religions, the holy religion of the invisible pink unicorn is based upon both logic and faith. we have faith that she is pink: and we logically know that she is invisible because we can't see her. for many faith is a suitable substiture for knowledge, as death is for a difficult life"

    This is totally inappropriate. Faith is not a substitute for knowledge, it is a virtue to be embraced when knowledge is unavailable.

    All thinking human beings (scientists and priests alike) must have faith in something. The difference is what vehicle to knowledge an individual has faith in.

    "this sort of behavior is left to the psychotic, dogmatic, fundametalist believers you see on tv everyday letting off bombs and killing people in the name of god. beliefs are dangerous. beliefs allow the mind to stop functioning. a non-functioning mind is clinically dead. believe in nothing" - tool

    Along that line, this sort of behavior is also left to altruistic, humanistic, heroic believers you
     
  15. dustchick

    dustchick Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2000
    Not to be a stickler, but Buddha is not worshipped as a God. Buddha is revered as an example of the human being that you should strive to be. Just on a note of religious understanding and tolerance. :)

    Also, the "In God We Trust" on our money is not construed to be an example of self-expression as the Pledge is supposed to be. Speaking a pledge aloud is different than handing over money, which you only read for the denomination ( in general).
     
  16. bountyhunter2999

    bountyhunter2999 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2002
  17. Liz Skywalker

    Liz Skywalker Ex-Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 13, 2000
    Darth_Pseudomorph:

    But thank God that the pledge does not further explicate the type of divinity it refers to. How on earth is it the same thing?

    The word "God" refers to any sort of diety. The title "God" refers to the Judeo-Christian God and none other.


    I find your sense of priorities disturbing.

    Do you really think that our country (so increasingly apathetic and wishy washy about religion) could possibly return to the time where a particular set of religious values are violently forced upon unbelievers?


    have you been reading anything I've written? Our country was not founded on religion. Religion has nothing to do with our government b/c of seperation of church and state. God may be important to you, but not necessarily to the next person over. And that's cool b/c we as a country have no collective God. You're saying that it's ok to say God b/c Christians will never force their religion on other people?


    No Mrs. Liz Skywalker

    Please. I am not married nor will I be married in the forseeable future. My name is Liz.


    if I were you, I would either refuse to recite the pledge or leave out the "Under God," part.

    but we want to recite the Pledge. I'm a patriot and I think it's my patriotic duty to pledge my allegience to my country and to do so in good faith and conscience. But I can't b/c I don't believe in God yet I am saying that I do by reciting the Pledge.


    "question with boldness even the existance of a god: because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfoldered fear"

    I agree. We should all question the existance of God, to find that all reason points to his existence.


    I'd say PPOR, but that kind of discussion probably belongs in the God thread in the Senate. I'll acknowledge your point if you can give me conclusive evidence that God exists over PM.



    bountyhunter2999:

    No matter how much we argue about whether or not "under God" should be taken out of the pledge, it's never gonna pass with the Supreme Court.

    It's too stupid! Why would they change it? And why would they listen to those pot-smoking liberal judges from San Francisco?


    Also, I"m surprised one little Athiest got this far.


    If they decide to change the pledge, I think I'll lose faith in our country's future.


    OK, I really don't understnad where you're coming from here. Why would they change it? Because it's unconstitutional! And I don't like how you seem to be considering an atheist "little" and, through that, less than a believer. And why would you lose faith in our country's future if we take out a discriminatory phrase from the Pledge of Allegience which, I remind you, all Ameircans say, not just the believers. If it's not taken out, I will lose faith in our country's judgement.


    Religion is what inspires this country to be great.

    NO, it doesn't. What makes our country great is our ideas, our ideas of equality and our idea that discrimination is wrong. Yes, discrimination. Like that quote said, atheists are being discriminated against. Why? B/c we don't believe in God and our country seems to be going under a whole religious conversion now. Political candidates are outrightly tellling everyone they see that they're born-again Christians, or that they are so devout. Yeah, well, I'm going to be able to vote next General Election and I'll tell you now, the candidate's religion will not play any part in my decision about who to vote for.


    Also, if they want God out of everything here (separation of church and state) then why not take God (or anyother god) in all the other countries. Then we can all be sacriligious jackasses!!!

    This is America. We have no jurisdiction over any country besides America. And I really don't like your tone here. Are you insinuating that atheists are jackasses? B/c that's what it sounds like.



    dustchick:

    Not to be a stickler, but
     
  18. bountyhunter2999

    bountyhunter2999 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2002
    Also, if they want God out of everything here (separation of church and state) then why not take God (or anyother god) in all the other countries. Then we can all be sacriligious jackasses!!!


    That's not what I meant. I'm basically saying if this continues and becomes a trvial issue regarding religion worldwide and we listen to one who has no relgionn and opposes religion, then we're going to hell in a handbasket.

     
  19. Master-Jedi-Smith

    Master-Jedi-Smith Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 26, 2002
    Where would those of us who don't believe in a Hell go?

    Latre! :D
     
  20. Gandalf the Grey

    Gandalf the Grey Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    May 14, 2000
    ?God? refers to the Judeo-Christian god, while ?god? is a generic label for a deity. YHWH is God; Zeus was a god.
    Theocracies are generally bad. Taliban Afghanistan, modern Iran and Saudi Arabia, much of Medieval Europe (particularly Spain) and the like are fine examples of why Separation of the Church and State is usually a good thing.


    Basically, I think that ?under God? should be taken out of the pledge, and the original phrasing returned. Or perhaps it should be changed to read ?the gods,? which suits polytheists (Hinduism and Buddhism both fall under this label, I believe) better. Or ?under nothing,? which suits polytheists equally as well as ?under God,? but which will satisfy atheists.



    I?m really glad that Canada has no such Oath; I think that in general we?re a lot more casual in our patriotism, and I like that. Except on Canada Day, I think that it?s rude to go on about how great Canada is. We?ve got a great country, and most of us accept that and get on with our lives. Those that go on and on about how great we are sometimes worry me? they sound almost? American? ;)



     
  21. LittleJedi

    LittleJedi Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 4, 2001
    Yes, i think it should. It worked fine and wasn't exclusive before.

    I don't really want to get into theological debates with people here, but I'm pagan and IMHO I don't think it's fair that those who don't believe in God are excluded from these sorts of sort of things. :)

    LittleJedi
     
  22. bountyhunter2999

    bountyhunter2999 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2002
    I don't really want to get into theological debates with people here, but I'm pagan and IMHO I don't think it's fair that those who don't believe in God are excluded from these sorts of sort of things.


    America is not a five-star hotel, we won't wait on you hand and foot. Why should America be changed and altered because a few people have different religions?

    It's not America's fault. It's your fault for having a different religion or no religion.
     
  23. Saint_of_Killers

    Saint_of_Killers Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    I'm trying to decide if it's worth 48 hours to call you a big fat ass of an idiot ?[face_plain]


    No, but it's 24hrs worth to think about it on boards.

    I am the monster that eats your children's happy dreams.
    [face_devil]
     
  24. Master-Jedi-Smith

    Master-Jedi-Smith Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 26, 2002
    I would like to live in a 1 star hotel if would take into account that not every citizen of the United States of America wants, or even believes in, a religious concept.

    Why's it our fault? Maybe it's your fault for believing in God. And the rest of us have to suffer for it.

    Latre! :D
     
  25. Liz Skywalker

    Liz Skywalker Ex-Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 13, 2000
    Master-Jedi-Smith - I think I love you. ;)
     
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