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PT Should Yoda have been left out of the Prequels?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by BlueYogurt, Nov 6, 2021.

  1. BlueYogurt

    BlueYogurt Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 26, 2021
    I've always felt that Yoda had no place in the PT, at least not as a main character. Prior to the PT, I assumed that if you wanted to learn the ways of the force, you had to seek out a Jedi master in some remote part of the galaxy. Yoda was on Dagobah not because he was in exile, but because that was where he CHOSE to live. Like a Shaolin master, on a mountain top. Putting Yoda at the center of the action, just didn't work for me. He was a teacher in the OT, and that's what he should have been in the PT. Not the head of the Jedi Council. The only time we should have seen Yoda was when Luke and Leia were born, their pregnant mother having been brought to Dagobah by Obi Wan. This would explain Luke's line about Dagobah seeming "familiar" in ESB. Luke and Leia should have been born there, and lived there for the first few years of their lives. Your thoughts?
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2021
  2. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 9, 2015
    The jedi being the guardians of peace and justice for 1000 generations, I think would be easier to work with than tracking down some old guy on a random planet.

    Yoda always being exactly the same, in the same place, I don't necessarily speaks a lot to the story of the character.

    While they could've been born there, and I think could've worked for the reason you presented in a way, I've actually interpreted Luke's line, in recent times, as more a force connective thing. Though I think them living there for a few years isn't needed.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2021
  3. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 9, 2002
    Nope. I got chills seeing Yoda again in TPM. Just the image itself of Yoda in a seat of power in such a grand city was haunting. And in general I love the character's place in the overall PT narrative, seeing Yoda guiding the Jedi firsthand in a manner that delves into the pitfalls of the Jedi position that walks such a line between defender and warrior. Oh, and Yoda with a lightsaber in AOTC remains probably the best theater moment I've seen. The crowd reaction was incredible.
     
  4. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Force Ghost star 5

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    Jun 19, 2019
    Yoda wasn't a "main character" in the PT. He was a minor character. Main characters in the PT were Anakin, Obi-Wan, Padme, and Palpatine/Sidious as the villain.

    The Jedi, according to Obi-Wan, were guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. We also know from Obi-Wan's memories that they were active in the Clone Wars (Anakin was a cunning warrior and the best straighter pilot in the galaxy per Obi-Wan's account). That is kind of hard to achieve if they are just staying in remote places in the galaxy and hard to find.

    Narratively speaking, Yoda wasn't at the center of the action. The main characters were.

    Yoda is a teacher in the PT. We see him teach a whole class of Jedi younglings in AOTC. He is also a member of the Jedi Council. Characters are allowed to fill more than one role.
     
  5. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Force Ghost star 6

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    Nov 21, 2012
    On one hand I think Yoda could have been placed a little outside the picture. As the top Jedi master he should have been more mysterious. Aloof. Hidden away in whatever meditation chamber he's in. Almost like everyone speaks about him, but we very rarely see him. Almost ... almost like the Emperor in the OT.

    But ESB Yoda is a Yoda who's learned some lessons. Especially about being a great warrior. So it is rather important to see a Yoda who may not have always thought that way and got too involved in the war, and how his failures there changed him into the older version.
     
  6. PadmeFan4Life

    PadmeFan4Life Jedi Youngling

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    May 21, 2021
    So what I gathered was you and others wanted Yoda to be a one dimensional sort of God like figure who could do no wrong? What makes Empire so powerful for me was seeing Yoda as a wise old hermit who was teaching Luke wisdom from EXPERIENCE! In the prequels I see Yoda's wisdom and his shortcomings and when I go back to watch Empire it makes his scenes with Luke all the more powerful. Going off the tracks even in Last Jedi Yoda tells Luke the greatest teacher is Failure. Also Yoda being a warrior in the prequels in no way contradicts his characters in the OT....in fact we get a reflective Yoda in the OT who learns that being a warrior and pulling out a lightsaber doesn't solve problems....Yoda is a great character with a wonderful arc
     
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  7. CaptainEO

    CaptainEO Jedi Grand Master star 1

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    Mar 13, 2002
    I think Yoda needed some part in the prequels. He's mentioned as the man who trained Obi Wan, so there is the seed of a back story there, and what are prequels if not fleshing out of back stories?

    Now, I think I get what you are hinting at. The problem isn't with Yoda, but with how the Jedi Order is presented. Before the prequels, I never envisioned the Jedi Order as some sort of "Space FBI", which is basically what they are. They are like a branch of the government. This was always a disconnect with me. In the OT, you get the idea few people believe in the Jedi. They are portrayed as more of a religious order. A fighting monk sort of thing. The people thought heir powers were folklore. But, it turns out they were just government employees. This makes how they are viewed in the OT seem off.

    I think Lucas wanted to tell a story of how governments can become corrupted, and he went a bit too far with setting up everything like modern day society. So, the Jedi needed to be part of the government to show how institutions can fail.
    This is the same thinking that gave us an "elected queen" who is also a child. Because democracy = good and dictator = bad, so therefore your good guy child ruler had to be elected. I would have made Padme a Princess who ascends to Queen after her parents are killed in the Trade Federation attack. This makes her situation more sad and makes the Trade Federation more of a threat. It shows us the plight of the Naboo instead of telling us the Naboo are suffering. It also gives Padme the opportunity to be a real reformer when she gives up her title and makes Naboo a democracy! Which also explains why she is later a Senator...Opps! that was way off topic.

    I still love the prequels though. The fact that I spend time thinking about this type of stuff is a testament to how great they were even if they were not exactly what was expected.
     
  8. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 11, 2019
    Why is it necessary to keep Yoda out of the Prequels? I don't understand this argument. "The Empire Strikes Back" makes it clear that Yoda was familiar with both Obi-Wan and Anakin/Vader. Not only that, he knew about Leia's existence.

    Is this suggestion a need to prevent Yoda from being portrayed in the ambiguous nature that he was in the Prequel Trilogy? Or to solidify him as some one-note, ideal character who knows and sees all? Is that it? It's been 21 years since the release of TPM and 16 years since the release of ROTS and many fans are still upset that the Jedi was not portrayed in some ideal manner that Obi-Wan had described them in ANH.


    This sounds like you had some ideal image of the Jedi and Lucas had ruined it in the PT. But the thing is that Lucas had started subverting Obi-Wan's "ideal" portrait of the Jedi as early as near the end of TESB, when Luke had discovered that neither Obi-Wan or Yoda had told him the truth about Vader. And ROTJ really began revealing the true, ambiguous nature of the Jedi.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2021
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  9. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 6

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    Apr 6, 2018
    Interestingly, that moment was one of the worst theater moments in my life. I just couldn’t believe how terrible it was. It floored me. Like Yoda had been brought down to the level of Sonic the Hedgehog. A cheap digital creation vs. the strikingly tangible and alive font of wisdom he was in the OT. I don’t think Yoda should have been kept out of the prequel story, but he could have been handled so much better. And I haven’t even gotten to the insanely exaggerated version of his backward speech. For me he’s the worst-executed element of the prequels.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2021
  10. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 11, 2019
    Like how? Still be the ideal leader of the Jedi that you had imagined him to be? Or wanted him to be?
     
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  11. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    Having him not be oblivious to what is going on around him even though he has a lot of pieces to the puzzle would be a start. He kinda comes across as an idiot a lot in the PT.
     
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  12. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 6

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    Apr 6, 2018
    Stop trying to make unwarranted assumptions about what people wanted. I didn't want anything like that. In fact, I was totally OK with Yoda being the head of a Jedi Order that's directly connected to the Republic and fails to stop Palpatine from taking over, and Vader from turning. Makes his arc more interesting, and adds color to who he is in ESB. I was talking about how poorly he was presented visually as a really bad digital character, in terms of his lines (with his backward talk turned up to 11), and in terms of the type of scenes he's placed in (including ping pong Yoda fighting Dooku, etc). He went from being an iconic character to a cartoon character. I expected a lot better.
     
  13. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 9, 2002
    Not surprising, we really don't share anything in common as far as our Star Wars tastes. At least there's material for both of us to enjoy.
     
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  14. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 6

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    Apr 6, 2018
    That's what I love about where Star Wars is at the moment. More is better, IMO, especially since it seems that the material has been rising in quality (Mandalorian, Bad Batch, Visions, etc). It's difficult for NONE of this material to appeal to a fan.
     
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  15. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 13, 2004

    I hear you. It's like seeing a wise old monk who resides on a remote mountain in Nepal suddenly living in a New York City high rise. It's a bit jarring. A lot of the OT to PT was that way.

    That said, here's the thing. You said:
    I think a lot of what we assumed about events prior to/post the OT were just that......our own assumptions.
     
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  16. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 11, 2019
    So, are you saying that your complaints about Yoda was basically about technical stuff? Is that it? Whether it is or not, I don't see why these complaints are good reasons to delete Yoda from the PT altogether.

    I just re-read some of these complaints - and all of them seemed like minor nitpicking to me.


    Did it ever occur to you that the PT was also about how Yoda had ended up on Dagobah in the first place? And why was it necessary for him to be this all-wise or all-knowing monk without any flaws throughout the entire saga? I have never heard of anyone, regardless of whether they are revered or not, being that perfect. Wasn't Yoda allowed to be a character with both virtues and flaws?
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2021
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  17. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    He becomes a caricature of himself.

    Every time anyone says anything even remotely negative/critical of the PT, you immediately jump to this strawman argument about people wanting the PT characters to act perfectly.

    You do it so often I have this picture saved on my computer because I have to use it so much.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2021
  18. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 6

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    Apr 6, 2018
    When did I say I wanted Yoda deleted from the PT? I’m not the OP.
     
  19. BlueYogurt

    BlueYogurt Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 26, 2021
    I think the duel in AOTC, illustrates one of the reasons it would have been better to keep Yoda out of the prequels, altogether.
     
  20. BlueYogurt

    BlueYogurt Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 26, 2021
    He's present, and in fact, instrumental, in some of the key events of the PT. His total screentime in the complete saga is only 3 minutes less than Darth Sidious/Palpatine's, and more than double Lando Calrissian's. If he's not a main character, he's at least playing in the same ballpark.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2021
  21. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 11, 2014
    No. Because Obi Wan in the OT flat out said that Yoda was “the Jedi master who instructed me.” And they clearly know each other well when they interact in the PT. Plus Yoda clearly knows the truth about Vader as well.

    So IDK how you do a story with Anakin and Obi Wan as major players and NOT include Yoda.
     
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  22. BlueYogurt

    BlueYogurt Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 26, 2021
    Yes, it reminded me of the Mini-Me fight, in the last Austin Power's film. This is NOT the way you depict Yoda.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2021
  23. BlueYogurt

    BlueYogurt Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 26, 2021
    No, it's an attempt to prevent a good character, from becoming little more than a special effect. Ironically, the original puppet was exactly that, but the end result was nothing short of magical. The PT Yoda totally lacks this "magic". It's like someone stole Frosty's top hat.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2021
  24. BlueYogurt

    BlueYogurt Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 26, 2021
    Right. Yoda turned out to have feet of clay, or perhaps more accurately, brains of sh**.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2021
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  25. BlueYogurt

    BlueYogurt Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 26, 2021
    If you tell the story of Abraham Lincoln, do you have to include his 3rd grade teacher...or his karate instructor?