CT Similarity between Imperial navy trooper outfit and Vader's.

I've always wondered if there was a connection between Vader's attire, and that of the Imperial navy troopers. The designs aren't interchangeable. Vader's helmet for example is a lot smaller and, obviously, the Navy Troopers don't wear masks or capes. That being the case though I've always thought that the designs were too similar to be coincidental. I've heard somewhere that Palpatine modeled Vader's suit after the ancient Sith. Could the same be true of the Navy Troopers, to a lesser extent?

Here's a few pictures for comparison:




Here's the trooper's helmets from the back, and where the parallel is most apparent.


General Veers also has a helmet that's basically the same as Vader's, except green.

Maybe I'm looking too much into it. Still, though, thoughts?

 

You may find the internet transcript of an original article from Starburst Magazine interesting:

http://www.sci-fi-o-rama.com/2015/12/27/the-star-wars-space-armies-of-john-mollo/

According to ANH and ESB costume designer John Mollo these Imperials belonged to "Darth Vader's Guard Corps", so similarities aren't entirely coincidental.

 

I always thought that the similarities were due to Lucas having drawn so much inspiration from feudal Japan and the movies of Akira Kurosawa. The helmets being inspired by samurai headwear meant that many had a similar shape. That said, I like the idea of these troopers belonging to Vader's guard corps.

I remember reading somewhere (in what is now Legends) that Palpatine modelled Vader's suit after ancient Sith battle droids.

 

Here are some German Wehrmacht goggle links that reveal the obvious historic influence on General Veers' field armor helmet and goggles:
http://photobucket.com/gallery/user...nRzL2VzLWwxNjAwX3pwc2h2YzVjbXVhLmpwZw==/?ref=
http://photobucket.com/gallery/user...nRzL2JzLWwxNjAwX3pwczAzejJ1dHBkLmpwZw==/?ref=

Of course, the Imperial costume design wasn't only influenced by the German Wehrmacht, the Imperial regulation caps were inspired by those worn in the Japanese Navy during WW II (with the Imperial security guard helmet being obviously of Japanese origin...) and the general helmet oversize is reminiscent of the oversized military hats common in former Warsaw Pact countries.

While I have no intention to hijack this thread, I yesterday came across an image of Dengar, and comparing it to the above screencap of General Veers I was finally able to resolve a riddle that had been bugging me for the past two decades.


Dengar is essentially wearing the same kind of armor as General Veers, but obviously one bolt is enough to attach the armor's shoulder strap, yet in the case of Veers there are three bolts. And these three bolts match in size and arrangement the pips of the Alliance rank plaque "commander" (Luke) and "major" (Derlin).

What's the story? As you can see in this overview from WEG's Imperial Sourcebook (based on a treatise I sent them)...



...the rank plaque "general" distinguishes itself from the (unseen) ranks of "major" and "colonel" by its width and the spacing between the four bars in each row.



However, that distinction is totally missing in Veers' field armor, just going by the rank chest plate he rather looks like a "major" or "colonel" and there are no chest-pocket cylinders to enable a distinction.
Apparently, the amount of bolts on the shoulder strap enable that distinction (and substitute for rank plaque width and amount of chest-pocket cylinders) and have qualities of epaulettes, i.e. one bolt would indicate "major", two bolts would indicate "colonel" and three bolts indicate "general".

Again, the attention of detail of the late costume designer John Mollo was remarkable and I concur with @Pabawan that ESB provided the best insight into Imperial rank structure (however I feel that also applied to ANH and to a lesser extent in ROJ).

 

Here is the image that "opened" my eyes, I'm pretty certain the shoulder straps for both costumes (Dengar and Veers) were of the same material.

 

Why are the army and navy ranks combined and simplified? Why did they do that?

 

I think the intention in 1977 was that the Sith were a group of Jedi who pledged themselves to Palpatine at some point, and that helmet style was likely meant to be what the Jedi and Republic troopers wore before the Empire.

 

I always wondered about that when I was little. I initially was confused when I saw them in ROTJ. I never really wondered about Veers' helmet until later.

 

I can't provide the answer as that particular aspect of the original production had never been properly disclosed. According to very early John Mollo costume sketches for the Aquillian Rangers of the second SW draft he seemed to have classic army ranks in mind, but that probably changed because a) Lucas wanted to have it simple and b) there is only the Imperial Starfleet or Navy (no original, official source or novelization ever mentioned an "Imperial Army"), rather reminiscent of Nelson's Navy featuring naval officers in blue uniforms and the marines in red uniforms (and apparently highlighted by the ESB rank plaques, featuring blue and red bars - if there were a distinction I'd expect naval officers to only wear blue rank plaques and army officers only red rank plaques which obviously isn't the case in ESB and ROJ).

 

I mean I kinda understand the argument of the similarity between the imperial naval trooper's uniform and Vader's (cause when I was a kid I thought the very same thing). But, it's a foolish argument now. Vader's and there helmets happen to be similar because they based them off of all samurai gear. But, I think at the time they were designed like that because simply a lot of infantry wore similarly effective helmets (it's like how many countries today copy their own designs of the most popular and effective kevlar helmets).
(Also, we've always had the discussion of why the rebel fleet troopers are so similar to the imperial naval troopers when they really aren't). All because they wear similar helmets does not mean they were once on the same side in the empire and both working together in the senate as guards... (aigh, sorry a lot of people have made that argument to me before on this forum). It's like comparing the Royal marines to the American marines all because they wear helmets and camouflage.

 

I've wondered about that too. I think Vader's helmet and the troopers' might have the same origin, just like the clones and mandalorians have similar armors.

 

Good point, Jo Lucas.

Of course, in later years, I have come to believe that Sidious designed Vader's helmet to resemble the Sith hood. In the EU, many ancient Sith wore heavy armor. Vader continues that tradition. But there is nothing that does not suggest that Imperial naval officers may not have based their helmets on Vader's. Let's not forget that the stormtroopers worshipped Vader. He fought on the front lines with them. The naval officers may have felt similarly.

 

Didn't the British Army wear red, too? Red was for military, or land forces, aka "soldiers". Blue was for Navy. Marines are the "soldiers", or land forces of the Navy.

Didn't the West End Games, which I know are no longer part of canon, but didn't they source Mollo's production notes in fleshing out the "universe"? I don't interpret a lack of a specific mention of an "Imperial Army" as a sign that they don't exist, the same as I don't interpret the relative few ships that appear onscreen are the sum total of all Imperial forces. "Generals" only exist in an army, hence the mention of a general would mean the existence of an army.

 

Yes, the British Army wore red, too, but given the absence of any mentioning of "army" in the original materials (there's only "starfleet" and "navy" in one of the novelizations) it stands to reason we are exclusively looking at 'red' marines, hence the color combination on Imperial rank plaques post-ANH.

AFAIK I'm not aware that West End Games ever based their conjectural stuff on genuine and authentic production notes (their whole intent and purpose was to make role playing games). The rank plaque overview from their Imperial Sourcebook (see post 4 above) was based on a treatise I sent them and in the annotations of my treatise I emphasized that it's a mix of naval and army ranks, hence a general like Taggi could be commander and chief of the Imperial Starfleet in ANH. I for one never had a problem with that, as we're looking at events in a galaxy far, far away, therefore Earth standards or systems don't necessarily apply.