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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit Sith Empire-Canon

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Jid123Sheeve, Oct 23, 2018.

  1. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    If there is a thread about this already ...apologies.

    I've been thinking about this for a while now, obviously the Pre Phantom Menace Timeline is vague for many reasons. One because we haven't gotten anything, and also because i'm sure the gang at Lucasfilm probably wanna keep it that way until one day we get something Pre Phantom Menace. But we do know somethings.

    We know the Sith took over Coruscant at least twice, sometime in the 5000 BBY timeframe and build the Sith shrine and another time around 1000 BBY before the final battle between the Sith and Jedi were Bane was the last survivor.

    We know Bane exist and he started the rule of two.

    We know the Sith had a Empire and at least a Armada.

    That's obviously about it...Oh and the Mandolorians were involved because...MANDO'S

    So what i'm curious about is what would like to see brought back in terms of the Sith Empire or Empires....Would you want multiple Empires that rose and fall over the generations or just one continuous Empire.

    Would you bring your own Valkorian/Vitatie/Tenembre character to serve as the grand Villain of the Era or maybe just have the Sith Empire ruled by a Dark Council sorta the polar opposite of the Jedi Council. (Obviously i'd like certain individual Sith to serve as Antagonist for whatever movie/tv show/ book they have) Would you continue the idea of the Sith being both a religious sect and a Alien species ....Korriban/Morriban is Canon and Ziost too. Or would you just say they were Jedi turned bad who went into exile.

    Discuss how would you handle brining in the Sith Empire into NuCanon.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 23, 2018
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  2. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    For a lot of it, my answer is, "It depends what direction they want to go in." However, I like the idea that the Jedi and Sith both split off from a "balanced" order.

    Of interest is that Yoda says in TCW that Moraband was "abandoned after many wars".
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2018
  3. FS26

    FS26 Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 2018
    A few thoughts about stuff I'd like to see be different from Legends:

    - Don't have the Sith be extinct and then return repeatedly. I'd like the Sith to be a constant presence in the known galaxy that the Old Republic is frequently in conflict with.
    - No Vitiate-esque great super-Sith who is in control for centuries, if not millennia. There can be several different Sith factions with separate leaders and attitudes.
     
  4. Darth_Accipiter

    Darth_Accipiter Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 2, 2015
    This is the huge elephant in the room that always irked me about The Old Republic Era in legends. There can't possibly be a previous Sith Empire. Putting aside the fact that Palpatine declares his new state the FIRST Galactic Empire, the Sith would be more like marauders. A dysfunctional society defined by infighting. There could be standouts, but certainly no EMPEROR because every Sith Lord worthy of the title would be after that position, and there are many of them. Too many for one single Sith to control. No Sith Lord would allow another the power to be head of state for their society.
    The Rule of Two is what solves this. A Master and an Apprentice. No More, no less. One Sith Lord to have all the power and his/her apprentice to crave it. The Ruler of the Universe, and the heir apparent.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2018
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  5. Daneira

    Daneira Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 30, 2016
    My only real problem with the Legends Old Republic era is that KOTOR looks exactly like the prequels. Veitch's comics and Jedi vs Sith make the Old Republic look all cool and old fashioned.

    What I really want to see is a series of stories of the whole Banite line, starting with Zannah and Cognus and going all the way to Tenebrous/Plagueis. I want to see the Sith Grand Plan over the course of a thousand years.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2018
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  6. Xammer

    Xammer Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2009
    Well, it's the first state ever to be named 'Galactic Empire' [face_tee_hee]

    But you're right, actually even GL said there couldn't ever be a society of darksiders because of infighting collapse - it was an idea for the NJO villains that he vetoed (as per The Essential Reader's Companion, the introduction to Chapter 7)
     
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  7. Dr. Steve Brule

    Dr. Steve Brule Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 7, 2012
    But that's exactly what we see. The Sith create an empire which collapses, as they always do, which is (part of) what convinces Bane to go a different route. It's not a contradiction.

    And on this topic, I'll mention again that one thing I do think people get wrong is that, going by the wording of the Bane passage in the TPM novelization, I think the intent was for Bane to have lived c. 2000 BBY, not 1000 BBY as everyone went with (including Lucas in AOTC, apparently).
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2018
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  8. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Agreed 100%. The way Legends did things, I was left wondering why Yoda didn't say to Ki-Adi and Mace, "Idiots, you two are. Extinct, the Sith always seem to be." I'd hope that whatever happened "a millenium" before the movies be something that's never happened before in Sith history.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2018
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  9. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    Lol...Sith have probably just as many genocidal events happen to them as the Daleks.
     
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  10. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    What about the Infinite (Rakata) Empire, the Sith Empire from when Ajunta Pall arrived until Ragnos's time, and Vitiate's Empire?

    Agreed (although I'm not sure where you're getting the AOTC part from).

    http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,23298-4,00.html

    Lucas says, "One of the themes throughout the films is that the Sith lords, when they started out thousands of years ago, embraced the dark side. They were greedy and self-centered and they all wanted to take over, so they killed each other. Eventually, there was only one left, and that one took on an apprentice. And for thousands of years, the master would teach the apprentice, the master would die, the apprentice would then teach another apprentice, become the master, and so on. But there could never be any more than two of them, because if there were, they would try to get rid of the leader, which is exactly what Vader was trying to do, and that's exactly what the Emperor was trying to do."

    Naga Sadow: At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi, at last we will have revenge.

    Exar Kun: At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi, at last we will have revenge.

    Vitiate: At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi, at last we will have revenge.

    Maul: At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi, at last we will have revenge.

    Lumiya: At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi, at last we will have revenge.

    Krayt: At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi, at last we will have revenge.
     
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  11. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    TBF, Carrusco Jr's NR era honestly doesn't look that far removed from his TotJ work if you compare Leviathan. It's just coloured better. Here's Leia and Ackbar hanging out on Coruscant.
     
  12. RavagerFish

    RavagerFish Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2011
    I feel like the galaxy’s depiction in The Old Republic is somewhat controversial on the Literature boards, but I think it created for an interesting answer to the infighting dilemma—two, actually.

    The first solution it proposes is that the Sith Empire deliberately contradicts its own teachings. Even though this incarnation of the Sith Empire publicly espoused the ideology of “freedom” and that a Sith must always scheme against their master, in practice they implemented a wide array of rules that prevented murder of Sith superiors (such as the Kaggath) and used an expansive bureaucracy to placate Sith from turning against the Empire. Just like in various empires across our own history, the Sith Empire rewarded intermediaries for their loyalty and for their contribution to the Empire as a whole with new positions of power. Sith who climbed the ladder in this framework are the ones who, oddly enough, found restraint or focused their anger on the Republic instead.

    Of particular interest to me is that the Dark Council, while on the one hand occupied by conniving Sith Lords who wished to advance their own power and rampant with political maneuvering, also saw long-term members consciously eschew parts of their own teachings in the name of the Empire and competent governance. It’s possible underling Sith never even realized this was the case. In the end, the Sith Empire, ironically, had to make compromises of cooperation and diplomacy to be a functioning government. I also think after so many generations, many Sith had a loyalty to their heritage and nation more than the Sith code itself.

    The second solution is a little more direct and a little less elegant. How do you stop Sith from killing the person above them? Make the Dark Lord someone so unimaginably powerful that no one would dare stand against them. It’s a kind of peculiar situation that BioWare created—the Emperor is barely visible to anyone outside the Dark Council, and therefore of little concern to those starting out in the Sith hierarchy, but remains a force that scares the upper echelon to bits. And because of the system of advancement the Emperor created, the benefits of existing in his framework heavily outweigh attempting to overthrow him.

    In canon, though, I think that there should be multiple varied factions of Sith rather than a single empire—or, at least, that a single empire eventually is forced to split into different factions by infighting. The form of ruling in The Old Republic, perhaps without having an emperor, would be interesting in new material as long as it is borne out of the chaos that comes with unfettered Sith violence and could exist as reigned-in alternative. I could definitely see a Great Galactic War-era Sith Empire being seen as a “moderate” version of Sith governance when compared to traditional Sith hierarchies, roaming bands of Sith Warriors, and arcane Sith sorcerers whose goals are beyond ruling the galaxy. I imagine a Dark Council-run faction would find Sith Lords like Nihilus or Traya as much of a threat as the Jedi.

    EDIT: It also seems that focusing the Sith’s efforts on the Republic was a powerful motivator in reducing infighting, and one that eventually ran out by the end of the Cold War when the Empire’s power was at its peak and the end of the Republic seemed at hand. “To be united by hatred is a fragile alliance at best.”
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2018
  13. LelalMekha

    LelalMekha Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2012
    Haven't you heard about the Hyperspace War Revival style? It was all the rage in 12 ABY.
     
  14. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    It seems that the coloring issse was just with Golden Age. The Sith War and Fall Of didn't have the coloring issue.
     
  15. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Whatever they do, I hope it's all planned and thought out better. I want them to be consistent about when lightsabers did and didn't exist, which schism the Sith formed from, who's a Sith and who's not, etc. I don't want to see things like the flimsy continuity between TOTJ and KOTOR.
     
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  16. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    Well some things we gotta point out is that definitly in New Canon, like in Legends there were dozens of Sith Wars....Though i'm curious how definitive they were...Like did the Jedi ultitmately destroy the Sith or did the Sith just pull back you have a good century of peace then another war start up again.
     
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  17. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    I thought that the implication was the Sith held Coruscant from 5000bby to 1000bby.

    Also, I hope their canon empire is lasting (as others said), and that it's more feudal, like Knight Errant. In ROTS, Palpatine says the Sith once ruled the galaxy, but also says he's creating the FIRST "galactic" empire. The old Sith empire might have been more feudal with no clear leader, or the leader being a figurehead, like the Holy Roman Empire.

    I also hope that Bane actually comes about at least 1000 years before the total defeat of the Sith Empire... that way there's a reason why everyone knows about the Rule of Two.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2018
  18. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Hopefully we won't have so many schisms. "Great" isn't too meaningful if you have multiple "Great" events. I hope and suspect that there will just be one Schism, that being the Hundred-Year Darkness.
     
  19. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    To be fair I got the Coruscant thing from a few WOOKIPEDIA articles and the Star Wars explained canon timeline....But it’s vague enough to not know.
     
  20. Fredrik Vallestrand

    Fredrik Vallestrand Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 15, 2018
    I hope that there's no empire and that palpatine's the first galactic empire. Only one great schism as one hundred year old darkness. Make that the darkest period in galactic history. I suspect there will be sith armadas and thousands of sith, but no empire or an emperor. I suspect that we will see sith infighting. We know that sith and mandalore sacked corusant when the darksaber was liberated from the jedi. I'm interested in what more of the dark side we could learn from these sith.
     
  21. Ackbar's Fishsticks

    Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2013
    I always thought the rule by the old Sith would look like the rule of warlords in modern day failed states more than anything else.
     
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  22. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    It's loose enough to where really any interpretation could work, granted Aftermath Empires End does mention an Old Sith Empire and the Sith Armada.
     
  23. Xammer

    Xammer Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2009
    I've seen somewhere on this forum the opinion that Knight Errant may be what GL envisioned for the pre-Banite Sith societies.
     
  24. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    Never heard of that before.
     
  25. Xammer

    Xammer Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2009
    Found it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2018
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