ST Snoke/Andy Serkis Discussion Thread

Snoke remembers the empire rising in the TFA novel, and the clone army was comissioned around TPM, 10 years before AOTC. That's cloning, with the sith being involved. Dark Science. But Palpatine might have cloned and/or remodeled a previous creature. 'I have died before' says Palpatine, and maybe that was true about Snoke too. We've seen three of them (2 in those tanks) Apparently, he had one other apprentice, and 'training' means 'being killed, as seen in TLJ. Maybe he/she is still around. CT had a Sollony Ren in his Sep.2017 script, female and maul-like. Weird creature...and familiar name.

Some of the ideas behind Snoke predated Disney I think.
https://boards.theforce.net/threads...equel-trilogy.50046418/page-108#post-56311895

 

I would think the chance of Snoke being around like he claims he was to Kylo as being about zero. Everything Snoke says and thinks in the books seems to just match up to Palpatine's background. Same with the limited statements from Serkis who said he knows his background and he blames the rebels/resistance for his condition. He even calls them rebels in the throne room. If he was an artificial creation made to test Kylo as they say that would place him after ROTJ 100%. Then you have the prior apprentices thing which says Palpatine also since he was created for testing Kylo.

 

That's what it seems. Snoke as a testing device.

Spoiler: 'There's another'

'Snoke trained you well'. This is what 'well trained' means:

So this would have happened before. Hence the clones:

When? Maybe the previous apprentice split, or was ordered to, when the new apprentice (Kylo Ren) became a reality.

Or maybe Palpatine had other plans for him/her. 'Her', I think. One wonders about this Sollony Ren in DoTF's last draft. Sep.2017: with the 'other apprentice' quote above dating from Dec-2017. Only three months apart, and only three months between Sep.2017 and June/July, when Ray Park was given a call. This Sollony, according to MSW, is 'maul-like' and from Dathomir - that's Palpatine, again.

'One other' apprentice. Long quote, but maybe useful in order to provide context:

Leia became that 'other'; and then Rey became Leia - Rey Skywalker, the jedi Leia Skywalker that never was.
But this 'other' could be a villain, related to Palpatine and 'trained' by Snoke; but also related to 'sequel' material (that is, post-TROS)...and to prequel material (pre-TFA). Darth Talon became the son (Kylo) during development, but maybe remained Talon (or, at least, the Talon idea) Vader became Luke's father in 1978, but they were not the sme person in 1977 (ANH).

Talon was a 'seducer', and maybe Luke was targeted too in that sense. There's a woman screaming inside Ben's head in the hut, and that's where he lost it.


This is from 2015. Hooded person -not Kylo- Anakin's lightsaber, same red background:

The clan vs the KOR, it would seem, predating Kylo Ren. But they turned the clan leader into a KOR (TFA credits) and removed the lightsaber. Also, this happened after Ben Solo turned.

Why? Who was this 'other'?

'Eyes'. Rian Johnson, March 2017 (again, just 3 months before Maul being a thing in 'Solo'):

Who knows - but as I said, Ben was 'seduced', and that's a freighted word. So maybe his uncle was seduced too, in those years. Palpatine would have noticed Luke's reaction after Vader's 'perhaps she will' in ROTJ. Luke could not be turned, but he could be made to lose balance. Again, there's a woman inside Ben's head, here:

Palpatine would have wanted what happened in the hut to happen; and if Snoke's voice was Palpatine, well: 'we both thought it might'

Kylo Ren:' [Luke] saw my power and he feared it'. But this was not true. Why did Palpatine think it might happen? The answer to that has to do with Palpatine vs Luke before Ben turned. Luke had to be ensnared into losing balance, and that's what happened.

 

The final versions of the movies don’t really mention any other apprentices, which lets the publishing group retcon them as being Palpatine’s previous apprentices.

That’s likely to happen, though they could easily go a more interesting route. The fact that they still keep mum about BTS info on Snoke, even months after TROS, hints at there possibly being more story that they’re planning for this. But who knows.

That enforced silence might have more to do with preserving the idea that the final version of the movies is what was always planned. Which seems obviously false to most people here, but perhaps to a casual moviegoer it isn’t.

Presumably, originally, Snoke’s previous apprentices had either died or become the Knights of Ren. Though considering that Abrams had full rein when it came to the Knights, and he still chose to have them not be that, I’d say it was most likely intended for Snoke’s previous apprentices to have died, possibly in their training.

That is certainly still true “from a certain point of view” for Palpatine’s apprentices. Though it’s much less interesting, because it just points back to previous stories rather than fulfilling the promise of new stories implies in that mystery.

 

This was from Sep.2017, not 2015. 3 months before the 'other apprentice' info.
In the Kylo Ren comic, by the way, Ben goes to Snoke after Luke's temple was destroyed. He has this curious line about Snoke's appearance, and he blames Luke about that. Snoke says 'never mind that'. So, Ben knew Luke had faced Snoke since the last time he, Ben, had seen Snoke. Was that true? Was it Luke? Ben had been told, it seems, and was not present -so, maybe a lie, with Ben in the comic talking to another Snoke, cloned together with his new scars. The outcome of his last 'training'.

Who destroyed the temple?
https://i.redd.it/3thekhjnlwa41.png
It looks like a lightning-activated device.

 

I still think it was Ben's subconscious that destroyed the Temple.

"The night I destroyed his temple, did he tell you why?"

"I've seen this raw strength only once before. In Ben Solo. It didn't scare me enough before."

 

More like: Luke turned against him, as planned, and then the temple was destroyed, also as planned. Kylo retroactively atributed the temple's destruction to himself. But it had not been him. He did not want it - did not choose it. But, once he became Kylo Ren, well...

'When I came to, the temple was burning', says Luke. Nothing about Ben being responsible. But: 'he slaughtered the rest'.
That's him accusing Ben. And yet, that didn't happen either according to the comic.

Meaning, they had been slaughtered before the temple was destroyed, but Luke thought it had been Ben.

Who else could have been? It sounds like lightsaber. 'Slaughtered' is more or less like Anakin's 'I slaughtered them like animals' and like Anakin killing the younglings. But, again, Ben didn't do it. Was there a mole or something?

Also, if you look at the panels, the sequence lightning-fire-explosion ('THOOM') is similar to that of Yoda and Luke and the tree. Others' burned that part of Ben's life, much like Owen&Beru being burned in ANH.

The subconscious played no part in it. It did play a part during Rey's lesson -'raw strength'-, and Luke talks about the darkness rising in Ben during his training. The temple was not destroyed literally during his training. Ben had a dark side cave inside himself, somehow, but wasn't talking about it; and that's why Luke went to the hut to 'look inside'.

 

I’m pretty sure it was Palpatine who destroyed the temple. The comic series was great, but it did retcon most of Ben’s backstory so that he was not responsible for as many deaths. I’m not sure I love that.

I don’t know about multiple Snoke clones being involved. It’s an interesting idea, but I get the sense it was probably the same Snoke all along. Though if we ever get a First Order origins story it would be pretty cool to see Snoke get killed by his enemies, only to surprise them by just reappearing again as if nothing had happened. We would know, but doubtlessly they’d be stumped.

 

Another possibility.
https://swfanon.fandom.com/wiki/Bombing_of_the_Jedi_Temple_(Third_Galactic_Civil_War)

Spoiler: kill switch

 

What is weird to me, is if Snoke is a clone, why is it necessary for this clone to have a mortal looking scar on his forehead?

 

I guess they will claim the process to make him couldn't be perfected as a force user body or something like that but they probably just wanted that ghoulish look for him as they almost went with a full skeleton for his look.

I do wonder if they had decided to go with the undead snakeman skeleton what the story would have been with that. That they just reanimated a dead darksider's skeleton somehow for Palpatine's plan?

 

I am quite disappointing with how Snoke turned out in the ST.

After watching TFA, I was curious to see how star wars films would go with a darkside master who wasn't a Sith nor a lackey of one.

Shame the explanation in what we got.

Snoke and the First Order would have been more interesting if Palpatine wasn't pulling the strings.

 

I agree it turned out to be a letdown that is for sure after all the guesses after TFA. I actually remember someone then being really close here on what the deal with Snoke was but no one else was really seeing it that way back then. I think the person quit posting after that however. I didn't really think about the link until I saw that stuff in the Last Jedi novel.

 

The closest thing we have to an answer for this after TROS is that his deformities were engineered to make identifying his species or origin impossible. In essence, they were there so people wouldn’t know where he came from. This is hinted at in the TROS visual dictionary.

But that’s just the post-TROS info. Pre-TROS it’s clear they meant for his injuries and deformities to hint at a long past of battles and losses and resentment. His backstory was written on his face, essentially.

 

I guess what I was asking specifically is weather or not plaguis being the Snoke clone host is still on the table for being cannon or legends. And if so, where should I go to find out if or when this happens. At the force.net?

 

The Snoke ‘clone’ rubbish clearly can’t have been the original story for the character mapped out from the beginning..
Obviously there was an enigmatic backstory to him..But ultimately, he was there to serve the narrative of Kylo.
As his murder in TLJ proved.

 

I think it's pretty apparent that Abrams never expected Snoke to be killed in Episode VIII. With Snoke killed and Rey's lineage written off Abrams simply inserted the Emperor into the narrative and Snoke suddenly became a cloned puppet. Since Snoke's role in Episode VIII was reduced from master force wielder to blind fool the Snoke clones were a pretty apparent afterthought to make the Emperor seem more intimidating. I actually think it would be cooler if Snoke himself had returned; that his death was a force illusion that he orchestrated to fool both Rey and Kylo into believing that he had been dispatched. Dragging the Emperor back into the fold was just a nostalgia play that felt more than a bit forced.

 

JJ knew full well that Kylo was going to deceive and kill Snoke.

 

Hard to say when that question will fully be answered by them? They don't appear to be in any rush to answer these questions.

 

I think they all knew Snoke was just an extension of Palpatine in a way whether the exact details of how the background of that went were hashed out fully or not. It also explains the answers Serkis gave about Snoke while also saying he knew exactly who he was and his background (while going on to explain his hatred for the rebels/resistance etc. through what applied to Palpatine's background).

 

But for the return-of-Plapy, it would be pretty easy to noodle a sequence of events where Luke and Snoke tangled, Luke badly damaged Snoke, and Snoke got his revenge by tricking Ben and Luke from afar, thereby resulting in Ben's fall.

The earliest rumors were the young dude dispatches of the old dude quickly; TFA merely set that back by a movie.

 

Ben did not know; Snoke certainly did not know. Palpatine did.

Palpatine wanted Luke to strike him in ROTJ. The same with Rey in TROS. That's an specific kind of attack; one driven by anger, designed to turn someone to the dark side.

Kylo's attack was about cunning. So Snoke had to be killed the way he was killed. I mean, by some distraction and cut in half. Were those details a part of the plan? For example, was Snoke's body designed to be vulnerable in precisely that way?

Spoiler

Maybe Rian Johnson was inspired by ANH:

Spoiler

Two hands, with one of them making a distraction (the left hand in both cases - Han's left hand had touched Kylo's face on the bridge), and Greedo/Snoke's upper half slumping over.

And then those tanks in Exegol containing Snoke's upper halves, and that very specific way of killing and being killed.
Was this hypothetical inspiration transferred to the films themselves? In other words, did Ben know about Han and Greedo? And in more words, did Palpatine know about the story and about Ben Solo knowing it? Ben/Kylo had to come up with the idea after all. I guess Palpatine became interested in Han Solo after ANH.

 

No I dont think so. Johnson was all about moving things forward. It's a shame Johnson didn't write episode 9. I'd really like to see where he'd have taken the story.

That's quite a stretch, imo. "Delusions and grandeur" lol I kid.

 

Peter Sciretta says Abrams originally pitched having the Emperor in episode seven. I guess he was overruled and he just went with an Emperor clone, so to speak.

 

Like I said, it's the Palpatine saga, baby! I certainly thought Snoke was Palpatine on my first viewing, actually, that it was Palpy's messed up attempt at resurrection and Han's line about "Snoke is just using you for your power."

Also Snoke does sound like smoke. Snokescreen. I think it's possible that Abrams and Kassadan created Snoke with the intention that Palpatine was always behind him. Certainly not nailed down and certainly not Snokes in a jar, but possible.