ST Snoke/Andy Serkis Discussion Thread

Considering he's writing that movie, yes I think it's his job to write it the best way he can. He seemed to choose to not really write much at all. It's similar to what Abrams did in TROS with the empty angles RJ left behind.

 

How would you know he didn’t write it the best way he could? It’s not his job to fix all the issues with TFA (and they are legion) unless the studio has mandated it. If he doesn’t think the existing characters or situations work, or if he doesn’t like them, it’s absolutely his prerogative to take them in a different direction (which includes demoting them or killing them off). That is the model that DLF put in place. Different writers, different directors, no overarching plan or single vision… with each filmmaker (seemingly) allowed to do their own thing.

Quite obviously both Abrams and Johnson did their own thing, to the detriment of the trilogy… but I imagine that Johnson set out to make the best film he could, and not to sabotage TFA or the ST generally. That the ST doesn’t work (IMO), that it’s so bereft of ideas, creativity, imagination, not a ‘story” worthy of telling (from TFA to TROS), is simply reflective of a broken approach to Star Wars films at Lucasfilm… which is still there IMO. They didn’t have a clue as to how to manage the IP. They still don’t.

 

I said he seemed to choose not to do that. Maybe it was out of his hands or maybe he did really try, but I don't know that for certain. I just have the product.

But I think a part of doing a job the best way you can is to fix the, arguable, mistakes you may have been handed, if you think they're there. If you think you can't or you shouldn't have to, I think that's a reason enough to not want to be involved with a subpar structure.

 

Unfortunately, there's still an absolutely bizarre insistence by many people in the fandom (including on these forums), that Johnson didn't care about Star Wars or worse, set out to deliberately troll the fanbase. It's not enough to personally dislike the film, they believe that it was made to personally insult them. I think that's a big part of why discussion of the movie often becomes so toxic.

I think he did try to fix them, you just disagree with the cures he applied.

 

Considering his idea of what he may see as a cure seems to be avoid it, yes, I think that is the incorrect way to write something, because I think to fix a problem usually you'd have to actually deal with it, not just shrug at it.

 

I don't think we're going to agree, but I don't believe he was avoiding "it", whatever we define as "it" being. Assuming its Snoke's ambiguous role in the story, Johnson doesn't avoid it, he gives him a role in the story by making him a device for Kylo Ren's development.

 

Not role, meaning. If you could call even what he does have a role, rather than a plot device. He gives Snoke the same meaning he gives Kylo, rendering both ultimately irrelevant as they could both replace eachother and it wouldn't really matter and simply has Kylo take the role Snoke had, again, making neither really that much more important or meaningful as a characters. In that meaning element, yes, I think he was avoiding it, otherwise he'd explore Snoke's relevance to this new empire, to the old empire and his rise to leader of this new empire and his relationship to Kylo and how he turned Kylo. But RJ didn't explore those things. As far as I remember reading, even Colin Trevarrow's draft of Ep. 9 had no real intent to do any of those things either. TLJ leaving both Snoke and Kylo as not much more meaningfully different than what he may have thought he'd been given by JJ, only one's dead now and Kylo's just replaced him with no real discernible meaning or importance as a character to make it matter much more than if Snoke had stayed in the same place he was at. Kylo is still moreso what little he was in TFA as a character, only now he's in charge.

 

Yes, I’d agree. I believe a filmmaker can make creative decisions they suspect will be unpopular or contentious… and some filmmakers (IMO) relish being controversial… but that’s usually because it’s a method of engaging audiences and making people think about what they are watching (even if a misplaced method)… and doesn’t usually come from a place of wanting to deliberately sabotage a film or story.

 

Remember when leaks and rumors called Snoke “Uber”?

 

Makes sense, as he was essentially a taxi service for Palpatine's ghost.

 

It makes me wonder if Abrams and company ever gave Snoke any meaningful backstory or if his development was just a stripping away of Maul's original role in the sequel treatment Lucas had prepared?

Andy Serkis did mention a backstory several times back in the day, but after all this time, I get the impression that this was likely an "actor's backstory" that was meant to help him get into the mind of the character but did not necessarily actually exist for anyone besides the actor. Mark Hamill had something similar for his portrayal of Luke, because he had to find a way to justify the character's darkness, which he didn't feel like the plot entirely justified.

 

I think they did have a full backstory for him, originally. Remember that conference when a fan asked about Plagueis and Kasdan said "Who? Darth Vegas?". Well that answer gives me 2 options;
1. Snoke was Plagueis and he was deflecting.
2. He really didn't know Plagueis, which then begs the question "How much does this man actually know about Star Wars? Damn, they are literally just copying The Emperor but making him bigger and more funny looking."
I certainly think there was a backstory. There were reasons he looked like he did with the scarring. There was a reason that Leia seemed familiar with him. What was it Andy said? Snoke had witnessed the entirety of the Empire. (or something like that)
Maybe the fans spoiled it by guessing too soon, maybe RJ spoiled it by crapping all over the set ups, sorry - subverting our expectations.
Either way, Plagueis or not, I think it is clear from the character design, and the TFA script, he was originally more than just a deformed clone.

 

I agree that he wasn’t originally meant to be a clone. But I feel like they started with Maul as a template and gradually stripped away specific characteristics until the villain was a big mysterious variable that future directors (after Abrams) could define as they wished. Unfortunately Johnson wasn’t interested in really having a big bad, so he not only avoided further defining Snoke, he killed him off.

 

Bro the One Ring was just a random magical item in The Hobbit. Tolkien was able to flash it out its origins in The Lord of the Rings so much that it became another story, a great one, must i add.

That said, i do think killing Snoke was an interesting move by Rian... however, there was absolutely room for more than his demise in TLJ. RJ could totally have explored him more. He just chose not to.

 

Timothy Zahn was interviewed at a recent convention and once more mentioned his interest in writing a book or book series where the Chiss characters from the Ascendancy trilogy deal with Snoke in the Unknown Regions. He describes it as being the story of how they destroy his navy, leading to him taking over the First Order.

What’s interesting to me is how this fits with the current canon in Zahn’s mind. Did he stop paying attention to the movies after TLJ? Or would he just rework it so that there’s an original Snoke and the one in the movies is just a clone? And what connection, if any, does Zahn imagine between Snoke and the grysks?

 

I tend to think it is a bit of both. Snoke was a warlord of the Unknown Regions with great power and influence, maybe even has the Force. Mix in the DNA of Palpatine and perhaps from Luke's hand (if that is who it is), and it's the Snoke we all know and love.

 

Snoke's got a bit one of the most messed up elements frm the sequels and one of the most confusing characters in canon. Four years after TROS we still dont really know for sure who he is, even including non-film material like books and comics what we know about him is scarce.. the same goes for the entire First Oder/Sith Eternal dynamic. Some questions remain:

1. HOW did Snoke come to power exactly?
2. Did Snoke know he was just a puppet to Palpatine? And how much exactly did he know about his origins?
3. How many, if any, high members of the FO knew about Palpatine and the sith fleet?
4. Why was Snoke so powerful if he was just a puppet? And how strong was him?
5. Why does he say he bridged Rey and Kylo's mind if the bridging was actually part of the dyad?
6. When exactly was he created? Canon says he witnessed the fall of the empire, so he was alive pre ROTJ. If so how old is the sith fleet?
7. If the sith fleet existed during the OT what was stopping Palpatine from using to rule the galaxy with it?

 

I think you'll find some of your answers here: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Snoke

Pryde knew about Palpatine and the Final Order, even before he joined the First Order where he then operated as a secret agent for Palpatine. He had actually provided Ochi with soldiers when the latter was searching for Rey.
I don't know if anyone else on the First Order Supreme Council was aware.

 

This is new? Don't remember reading about that bit on Pryde recently on Wookiepedia?

 

I thought this was a great joke I told back in late September, and am disappointed that it only received three likes.

 

I went back and liked it.

 

Snoke is frankly bizarre. He looks like a human but he is crazy tall but most of all his head is gigantic compared to a human (tall or normal sized). It's comical to be honest. And that name... Argghhhhh!!! The dumbest madlibs name. Who approved this???

 

Its a fairly Lucas'ish name TBH.

He could have been Supreme Council Frank and that would have felt less like Star Wars in all honestly.

 

I don’t quite know why, but “Snoke” decidedly does not sound Lucas-ish or Star Warsy in any way to me. I get the distinct impression of it as a name that someone who’s vaguely familiar with Star Wars might jokingly or off-handedly come up with while poking fun at the franchise. But I don’t quite know why it gives me that impression. Maybe because JJ approaches nearly all elements of Star Wars in a superficial, palely imitative way - bordering on parody - and this seems to fit that MO.