ST Snoke/Andy Serkis Discussion Thread

I think Johnson used Snoke really well in Last Jedi, even if he did kill him off, but he knew that he had Andy Serkis and ILM at his disposal so he basically went all out into evil genius monologues. That whole "Oh, do you see something in my apprentice, a weakness perhaps!" is so great.

But there is sort of a disconnect between if Sidious was controlling Snoke the entire time or if Palpatine can jump in once in a while. Like Snoke killing Rey (which he totally was going to do in TLJ) would be against Palpatine's Master Plan, I feel (Yes Palpatine tells Kylo to kill her but they're both full of it at that moment). Ben's "chats" with Snoke and Vader I believe are totally Palpatine as shown in the film "I have been every voice inside your head." The Snoke chats have been shown in the Kylo Ren comic, the Vader chats I'm assuming happened with Kylo saying "show me again the power of the darkness" and Palpatine voicing Vader with the "inside your head." line. There's a whole bit in a Snoke comic where he basically talks as Palpatine saying that he wishes Luke Skywalker had been at his side.

I think Snoke is acting on Palpatine's will mostly but every once in awhile he goes off on his own. And it lets Andy Serkis be big and crazy too. "Skywalker lives!!"

 

Has anyone come up with a good idea about what the Snoke creations are? I just can't see them as clones since why would Palps make clones that old and severely injured?? This puzzles me. Would be nice with a comment from Rian and JJ now that the entire fiesta is over.

My best guess is that they are an attempt at creating a super force user (Like some of us thought Palps had done in creating Anakin, but then disney shot that theory down) but they all look the same, old and wounded. I am so confused on this character's background.

 

I think that's the flaw inherent with the unnatural Sith extension of life. Look at Palps. I seriously believe his cosmetic appearance is true and his :normal" look was a facade.

 

What we need is a Supreme Leader Snoke & Count Dooku/Darth Tyranus parallel discussion.

Maybe it needs a thread of its own?

 

My take on this is that Palpatine was testing both Rey and Kylo in TLJ as Snoke.

Sure Palpatine wants Rey to survive since she's blood BUT each of his apprentices in the past....he puts them on a harsh trial....and he wants to see IF Kylo would kill her or not and to also see IF Rey is powerful enough to defend herself against Kylo. It's always survival of the fittest with the Sith. Either it's Kylo or his granddaughter who ever is more powerful between the two, it doesn't matter to Palpatine. So TLJ didn't contradict anything....it just showed Palpatine Kylo's intentions toward his master.

So if anyone asks me, who is Snoke? I would say he is the new created form of Palpatine.

His first words to Kylo was ....."My Boy"

And "I made Snoke" then he even imitated Snoke's and Vader's voices then saying "He's been the voice all this time" or since the beginning not sure of exact quote plus all those Snokes on the tube.

Looks like a Palpatine avatar puppet to me.

 

Hard to say but its crazy how they come out already damaged and deformed like that. My thought was its an experiment with Palps dead master originally but they did say after TFA that they considered making Snoke female at one time (in addition to almost making him simply an undead snakeman skeleton) which wouldn't go along with that but the sex of Snoke would be interchangeable I guess if they were playing with his DNA.

 

Sounds good to me.

 

Pulled some of my posts from other threads:

 

Dooku = Snoke confirmed.

 

Great stuff. It's getting harder to believe Abrams and Johnson didn't indend Snoke as a fake-out from the beginning, with all his Dooku parallels. I like the red and blue saber thing.

I've said this before, if not on the forums. The name Snoke suggests "smoke" indicating that there is something else behind him. So he was teased as a new Palpatine but is actually a new Dooku. Also, he leads half of the galaxy against the other half, which is what Dooku did too.

 

If we could get something acting-ly with Andy Serkis and Ian McDirmid as Snoke and Palpatine I would absolutely love it. Although live action version would probably be crazy expensive. Hell animated miniseries that really delves into the Snoke/Palpy interactions. I mean, there was a freakin' vatfull of him!

 

Wow! Those 2 actors and characters together!

 

Honestly hard to argue with this.
(But I will try )

I don't think introducing Palpatine in Ep7 instead would have necessarily worked better.

It would be harder to not rehash the OT even worse with that approach.
I kind of liked it as a twist in IX, but I acknowledge there was absolutely no established plan to it.
The way he is introduced after being thought dead made him seem kind of like an incarnate evil more than in previous movies. Like it makes him a bit scarier not knowing how alive he actually is, how he has come back, or what he is capable of in terms of power. That worked for me.

As a kind of on-the-fly development it worked a lot like the reveals in the original six. Those being Palpatine is Sidious, Anakin is Darth Vader / Vader is Luke's father (depending on viewing order), Luke and Leia are twins.
With the ST twists obviously being Palpatine behind everything (especially Snoke) and Rey being related to him.

(Eta - These twists all added depth to the established movies while being not at all originally intended. For example Rey almost killing Kylo in TFA, and being susceptible to the dark side in TLJ, work a bit better knowing her origins.)

Also, The First Order being revealed as something akin to the "Separatist" smokescreen in the PT was admittedly cool Imo. It has Palpatine's signature all over it.
And the idea of Snoke being kind of like the Wizard of Oz, I have read people here musing.
It kind of works with how we see him in TFA.

The line "I made Snoke" while maybe lazily written, or at least rushed, adds a little depth to the films watching it as a single story.
And the Palps/Snoke/Vader line was surreal.

Adding the Rise of Kylo #2 in retroactively also helped this for me - Snoke/Palpatine talking in Ben's head as a friend from very early on.
I didn't expect that he would be conversing with Snoke in his head while on missions with Luke. Pretty tragic.

I actually did better like the idea of Snoke as a separate entity to Palpatine, maybe something in soon-to-come material will establish he was part controlled by Palps, part his own sentient being. Not holding my breath though.
If they ultimately go with that was 100% Palpatine controlled in TFA and TLJ it will read a little cheap.

Just because Palpatine put Snoke into power (and Snoke's voice in Ben's head from afar was definitely Palpatine), I haven't lost hope that Snoke will be established as having had some free will all along. It would be way more interesting.

 

Appreciate the response.
I know you are open to discussion, I was just being formal I guess.


Just one point I wanted to respond to for now:

This was probably the most disappointing thing about the movie to me... I was hoping the old rumours that we would get Kylo/Ben Solo flashbacks played out in the final film.
Besides "It was Palpatine" we indeed got little expanding on why Kylo even turned in the first place.
I still enjoy the film but this was a huge missed opportunity Imo.
At least there will always be Revenge of the Sith for that type of story, but Adam Driver could really have been utilised a little more here.

On the Palpatine voicing Vader element - I suspect this will be explored in the near future (comics, novel, and I'm hoping relevant deleted scenes).

In the final film there was one moment I forgot about until rewatches - when Kylo touches the Vader mask and tries to disrupt Rey's training we get a couple of flashback moments and Vader's voice saying "Join me". That was likely a small moment showing the type of thing Kylo would hear when he thought he was talking to Vader.
I'm waiting on the comic to see what else was said, I wish it was in the films too though.
So far we got confirmation of the fan theory that Snoke (Palpatine) had discussed with Ben that Luke would one day do what Kylo believes happened in the hut (in the TLJ flashbacks). Snoke's voice - "We thought he might..."
That was kind of validating to read tbh, because I suspected he had said things when planting doubts much like Palpatine claimed to Anakin he "predicted" the Jedi would turn on the Republic - a situation that is of course only proven to somewhat occur because Sidious pushed the situation to a point where it would seem to have happened.

There are little hints at the character motives if you join the three ST films up I think.

Like Han saying "Snoke is using you for your power. When he gets what he wants he'll crush you. You know it is true." kind of echoes with the scene in which Palpatine uses the power of the dyad to rejuvenate himself then throws Ben - who has at this point truly realised to stand by Rey against the Sith - to his apparent demise.

Also Kylo saying to the Vader mask "I will finished what you started..." is very ironic in retrospect. When he helps Rey finish Anakin's job of returning balance. And arguably actually saves a loved one from death like his grandfather never could, from the opposite angle, in sacrificing himself in her place.

I mean there isn't much dialogue to flesh it out but some moments like this are satisfying as a whole story.

 

Not really sure what they were thinking with all this but reading what the Aftermath books said and when they were released (in addition to Serkis vague/evasive answers about Snoke) it does make me think they had Palpatine using Snoke as an avatar when Ep 7 was made but didn't intend for him to come back in the flesh ever at that time. Might have left that to be explained just in the books.

 

Right. Palpatine being Snoke makes no sense. If so, why did he try to get Ren to kill Rey? And why (in the TLJ novel) did he contemplate killing Ren when he’s no longer useful, as Han feared? Why didn’t Snoke take possession of Ren after Ren used the Dark Side to kill
him?

TLJVD, which is canon, said Snoke was no Sith. But didn’t it also say that Anakin had destroyed the Sith?

As I’ve said from having first seen TROS and had to reconfigure my head canon, Snoke and Dooku parallel Dooku and the Confederacy. They distract and damage the Republics and pave the way for the Empires.

On Star Wars Theory, the host says he felt that Jedi Master Dooku was more powerful than Sidious, with Plagueis using his apprentice’s jealousy as a way to warn him he could be replaced. Anyone else agree?

And Serkis made it seem like Snoke was more powerful than Palpatine. It’d be interesting if Palpatine was less power than Dooku and Snoke (and a fully realized no Mustafar incident Vader) and can still control them.

I suppose in the ST Palpatine has become more powerful than Snoke or Snoke’s clone. But he’s even more physically limited than Snoke and his Imperial Royal Guard are fewer in number and more easily disposed of than the Praetorian Guard. However, after Palpatine drains the Force out of Rey and Ben, I believe he’s the most powerful Force user ever in the GFFA.

 

Snoke lacked the enigmatic charisma of Dooku, probably down to Christopher Lee's laconic performance.

 

"I will finish what you started" means wiping out the Last Jedi. That's the most obvious take. Or it might mean wiping out all conflict and "letting the past die" because he would be the last one standing. Or maybe it is balance of the force. I don't know.

 

I can't understand the people who hate the redemption story arc. I mean you can hate the prequels as a whole, that makes sense, but the redemption arc is entirely at home in the saga and really it would have been weird to end the whole saga on the note of "well some people are irredeemable, and all their efforts were totally wasted on him and that is where the skywalkers ended in spite of all the prophecies and so forth."

 

As @devilinthedetails pointed out the literal meaning of the line was referencing Kylo following through on Vader's goals as a Sith, yes.

But watching the whole trilogy it is pretty easy to see it as a double-meaning now. Kylo wanting to be like Vader, and even "finish what (he) started" in actually staying true to the dark side path, becomes very ironic because Kylo/Ben realises he was actually more like Anakin (at the beginning and end of Anakin's life) than he thought. The imposing figure he idolised becomes metaphorically unmasked in Ben's own perception. And Ben actually finishes Anakin's "Jedi" task in helping Rey bring back balance and the Jedi Order (and saving a loved one at no benefit to himself). Succeeding where Anakin actually failed, rather than correcting a misguided perceived "failure" that Palpatine/Snoke convinced him Vader endured.

Eta -
Additionally "You cannot deny the truth that is your family." "You're so right!"
has two opposite meanings I think.


These elements also tie into Palpatine telling Rey "the only family you have here is me!" and Rey considering turning, then Ben arriving for morale support.
Palpatine has "learnt" from his failure, yet is still just using familial bonds as a tool as always. Ben alternatively demonstrates he himself truly has learnt.
By learning from Anakin's success rather than The Sith's demise.