Something I have been VERY concerned with as of late...

Well, speaking from my own personal experience, I've never been hounded by anyone for not liking AOTC or TPM.

 

The_Sith_Prophet, you must have missed a quote I made at the top of my post.

"The premise of the threads is discussion with folks of a similar mindset"


There would still be a DF. People who love the movie would still be interested in talking with other people who loved the movie. The forum will always have people with negative opinions. Banning the Sanc. won't remove them.


"Why can't they be discussed with people who have a different slant? Wouldn't that help foster even better discussion?"

Some people choose to discuss with the like minded, and people they have befriended. The mods are here to make sure people don't attack each other, swear, or spam. You aren't allowed to tell us who we should be discussing things with.

How about social threads in YJCC? Should we ban them and force those people to make a new thread for every single topic they wanted to talk about with that social circle?

 

Just look at your very own Bashers thread in TPM, Quix. Look how the Gushers invade the threads, and how it foesters a general sense of seperatness from your fellow posters that turn into *very* passionate and heated debates, complete with flamming. Your own Bashers Guil is quite representable of this situation.

You mean "gushers" like strilo, royalguard, or SomeRandomNerd? The folks who can conduct themselves civilly and with respect, who have been able to engage in discussion with folks and not create controversy? Or perhaps you're referring to the trolls who come in to insult posters, talk about the members and not the films, or who tell the posters that they don't belong here?

The posters that cause the controversy do so not because they're "gushers" - they do so because they are "trolls". Trolling goes against the Terms of Service, difference of opinion doesn't.

Again, PPOR.

EDIT:

Do you think the reactions people gave to you in the AOTC forum had anything to do with the fact that you may have been a known TPM "basher", and a regular in the "Basher's Sanctuary"?

No - no such flaming or flame-baiting occurred when I discussed an element of the film that I liked. I misspoke above when I said "every" post; the bad netizenry occurred when I voiced an unpopular opinion, regardless of how well it was defined and defended.

 

QS: I appreciate the kind words. I honestly have had my eyes opened to several different aspects of the films thanks to the opinions and insights of those who frequent the Basher's Sanctuary. That was part of the purpose of my posts in that sanctuary. To show that we can exchange ideas and be enlightened by one another. I think that if those on both sides of the fence can find some kind of common ground, the forums will be much better off. I think the easiest way for this to happen is for true interaction in threads that don't carry a "basher" or "defense force" label with them.

I think it was GayLen who had the idea: why not try closing the DFs and BS for a week or a month? We can then see where the pattern of posting takes us and go from there. There's no reason a v2.0 of each of those respective threads can't be opened in the future, if that were deemed necessary. The idea is at least worthy of pro/con discussion.

I also agree that the AOTC forum was not necessarily a "mess," after the film's release. There was a natural and expected influx of new people who may not have been familiar with the rules of the forum. The reaction to a new film in a franchise we've all loved was supposed to be strong going both ways. I think the storm was weathered very well, all things considered.

I should also note that I'm really glad the movie forums are generating such good discussion in Comms. It seems as if there are times when the movie forums are cast aside in favor of other things in this forum.

 

What is the problem with these Sanctuaries?

1. When newcomers to the Jedi Council come here and head for some good discussion and socialising in the Episode I Forum, what will these people encounter? They will encounter the terms Bashers and Gushers. These terms will be placed apon them depending on their opinion of the Prequels.

Those basher / gusher terms have nothing to do with the DF or Sanctuary. There were around long before and they will always be around. Their usage is simply another result of our culture's compulsive need to label everything and everyone. Even if both threads had never existed, these terms would be rampant on these boards.


People that like Episode I will be accused of being blind at the obvious steaming poodoo before them, while the people that hate Episode I will be accused of having massive expectations on the Prequels. This might discourage these members from posting in the movie sections again.

This is the overdramatic overstated and overly subjective accusations that are hurled from only the extreme members of both "sides." Let me try to point out several things here. First off, Jedi Learner, anyone accusing anyone else of being blind for liking/disliking a film is FLAMING and they will be punished for it. Second of all, most so called "bashers" do not hate TPM. They have issues with some or much of the film. They do not like certain things and they are free to discuss this matter. People who LOVE TPM frequently make HUGE assumptions that anyone who dislikes some of TPM must automatically hate the whole thing. Well there are major things about TPM that I cannot stand. There are major things that I would change if I could. So then I am a basher right? I hate TPM right?


2. Many members who once posted at the Episode I Forum do not bother that much anymore. They want to discuss Episode I and socialise, but the friction between these Gushers and Bashers will affect them in some way. I personally know five people that now refuse to post at the Episode I Forum because of this problem.

It is a tendancy of people on these boards and in a lot of other places to not want to deal with any form of conflict, even that of healthy normal discussion. People seem to want to go to the TPM forum, or any other forum for that matter, and not hear one bad thing about anything they themselves like. Well, sorry life on discussion boards is not like that. I am not going to cry that some of these non confrontational people have left the TPM forum. But I see no proof that these so called bashers/gushers are driving people out. Also, users who leave the forum after being flamed but have said nothing to Mods have no room to complain. As Quix and many other Mods have stated, they cannot be everywhere at once.


3. ...These people don't interact with each other now, people that like Episode I are asked to leave the Basher Sanctuary, while people that hate Episode I are asked to leave the Defence Force.

Let's not make assumptions that cover the whole forum shall we? I know some of the people who post in the Sanctuary don't interact with Jedi Learner because he has repeatedly sent them harassing and flaming PMs, something for which he has been banned for several times I believe. Just because they handle J_L with kid gloves or just flat out ignore him does not mean this is how it is. I can point blank tell everyone that, as the person overseeing the TPMDF, NO ONE is asked to leave. I have never asked one person not to post there. I have asked people not to troll and have asked Mods to intercede, but no one has been asked to leave by myself or anyone else representing the TPMDF.

I post in the Sanctuary all the time. Hell, I sometimes bash things I don't like. I find some real discussions about TPM and other parts of Star Wars happen in the Sanctuary. I love a good discussion myself. I respect them and they respect me. HELL there is no them and me. We respect each other. The only time I have ever seen people asked to leave

 

I think that if those on both sides of the fence can find some kind of common ground, the forums will be much better off. I think the easiest way for this to happen is for true interaction in threads that don't carry a "basher" or "defense force" label with them.

The thing is, this very interaction is what goes on in all of the other threads - camaraderie, debate, discussion, and community building. Closing the Sanctuary, TPMDF, and AOTCDF will only stifle the conversations already going on in them.

 

Just go into the Bashers Sanctuary yourself. You'll find numerous users flamming Defenders, and many Defenders flamming bashers.


And this problems even worse with the EUDF taking a heavy hand with people who question EU.

 

Look, this thing can easily be solved... if people feel the MOVIE FORUMS are being affected.. lock them and move them to SW Community and don't allow people to link to them or link from them.
Change the names to Critics of the PT Era and PT Era Appreciation Thread, that way there are no Basher/Gusher connotations.
People will realize that one is a critical attitude to the films and the other is an appreciative attitude.

That way people can discuss anything they love or hate concerning SW (movies, EU, etc.) and it's not going to "taint" the movie boards.
If people enter each other thread to pick fights or make "disrespectful" comments about discussions in each other thread, they get banned.
The people that are involved in those discussions can then be left alone to either critize things or become buddies.

I can't believe this issue has to be endlessly debated.
If it's hurting the movie forums, then block any kind of "sanctuaries" from them.

All SW fans don't have to like EVERYTHING associated with SW... I don't remember a pledge to be a PRO SW or a ANTI SW "Nazi" before the 20th Century Fox logo appeared.
What's next? Banning people because they like a LOTR film better? That's a problem too...

The problem isn't a difference of opinion, it's that some people take things too seriously and are too defensive, some take things too lightly (like me!) and some are overly sensitive!
Bashing/gushing are more than lables... it's a state of mind, some expect more, others are happy with what's there... it's when these become militant thinking when things become a problem.

 

Just go into the Bashers Sanctuary yourself. You'll find numerous users flamming Defenders, and many Defenders flamming bashers.

I go in there all the time. Any flaming seems to me to be handled by Quix and Oakes rather well. And this is only part of the equation. You are lumping ALL the DFs in here as well. The burden of proof is on you. Go find me where the DFs are encouraging people to flame.

 

They ecourage people to flame by flamming themselves.


If you hadn't noticed; that's what happens in the BHashers sanctuaries; they flame the PT and its defenders.

 

You keep coming around to the Bashers Sanctuary and keep ignoring your burden of proof that the DFs promote flaming. So basically what that tells me is your statement is entirely subjective, not based on reality and therefore should be dismissed. OK I can do that.

Oh and you are saying that because DF members have flamed, that is the fault of the DF. Sounds like it is the fault of the user to me. The DF as a whole should not be punished for the actions of a few extreme users.

 

I say again...

Look, this thing can easily be solved... if people feel the MOVIE FORUMS are being affected.. lock them and move them to SW Community and don't allow people to link to them or link from them.
Change the names to Critics of the PT Era and PT Era Appreciation Thread, that way there are no Basher/Gusher connotations.
People will realize that one is a critical attitude to the films and the other is an appreciative attitude.
If it's hurting the movie forums, then block any kind of "sanctuaries" from them.

It's a simple as that!
Move them, lock them or let them be... if this thread doesn't give a FINAL decision on them, then I think everyone should just ignore them, quit whining about it and let Mods deal with things as they see fit!
Accusing people of bad behavior, bringing out links to past actions that prove it or talking about a MOVIE forum that's in constant transition isn't solving the problems!

It's real EASY to BLAME people and JUDGE them, but it seems to me the HARD part is providing a SOLUTION!
Playing the "blame game" isn't going to bring about that SOLUTION!

 

I think everyone should just ignore them, quit whining about it and let Mods deal with things as they see fit!

This is the option that most appeals to me, since it's what we're here to do.

 

If people feel those threads are responsible for creating a negative Basher vs. Gusher atmosphere throughout the forums, then I fail to see how you can ignore them. Unless of course you're suggesting people simply ignore the entire forum.

 

Newcomers need to encouraged to talk to everyone, not join either side which widens the gap between us.


J_L you know very well that no one is encouraged to join a certain group or not to associate with a certain group of users with a point of view. If anything, the DF supports creating good debate for the TPM forum while respecting the rights and opinions of those who differ from their own.

 

If people feel those threads are responsible for creating a negative Basher vs. Gusher atmosphere throughout the forums, then I fail to see how you can ignore them. Unless of course you're suggesting people simply ignore the entire forum.

I'm not sure I understand what you're suggesting, Griff. Are you saying that I shouldn't be ignoring the folks who believe these threads cause a problem, or are you saying that folks can't ignore threads they see as causing a problem?

Regardless, I'll respond later - I've already spent nearly six hours discussing this on a vacation day, I have a headache from looking at the monitor, and I have a date tonight. Real life beckons.

 

As the creator of TPM Basher's Sanctuary, let me explain its purpose:

Many SW fans dislike similar things about TPM. In other words, we share some premises.

We go to the Sanctuary to discuss TPM with other fans who basically share our premises.

There are 1001 other threads in which we can debate with those who do not share our premises. It's nice to have a thread of like-minded fans.

That's it.

 

If people feel those threads are responsible for creating a negative Basher vs. Gusher atmosphere throughout the forums, then I fail to see how you can ignore them. Unless of course you're suggesting people simply ignore the entire forum.

People can be wrong. People can have ulterior motives. People can have personal vendettas and chips on their shoulders. Or people can just disagree. Doesn't mean we need to take drastic measures to "fix things" every time a few people feel a certain way.

 

Well, I obviously don't think you should be ignoring people, but what I was trying to say is this: If the issue is simply the content of one or two threads, then clearly you can ignore them; but if someone's problem isn't so much with the content of the thread, but rather the impact the thread has on the entire forum, then it's hard to ignore it. It seems that a lot of people are talking about the (apparent) divisions the threads create throughout the forum, and that isn't something you can really ignore.

I'm not sure if that makes sense, but I, too, have been starring at a monitor for too long.

EDIT: People can be wrong. People can have ulterior motives. People can have personal vendettas and chips on their shoulders. Or people can just disagree.

Indeed they can!

 

"We go to the Sanctuary to discuss TPM with other fans who basically share our premises."

But isn't it true that "gushers" also can post in the Basher's Sanctuary? Gay-Len said that mods shouldn't be able to tell people who they should be discussing things with. Therefore, a mod shouldn't be able to tell a gusher to stay out of the Basher's sanctuary, and vice versa. The whole concept of a "sanctuary" seems to be destroyed when everyone is able to post everywhere.

 

"If people feel those threads are responsible for creating a negative Basher vs. Gusher atmosphere throughout the forums, then I fail to see how you can ignore them. Unless of course you're suggesting people simply ignore the entire forum."

Umm...Griffz, what people are you speaking of?

Fact is some don't enjoy the prequels thus far, yet still like SW.

That just IRKS the heck out of "some people" doesn't it?

Long live the sanctuaries.


EDIT:

YodaJeff
"The whole concept of a "sanctuary" seems to be destroyed when everyone is able to post everywhere"

So then, what are you complaining about?!

 

Jeff. As a mod you should be well aware of the idea of threads being, and staying, on topic. People are allowed to post in either thread so long as they remain on topic. It is no different than any other thread on the JC. Going into the TPMDF and saying OMG JAR JAR IS TEH SUX0R is trolling and off topic. Going into the Bashers' Sanctuary and saying D00D PPL TPM IS TEH MOST R0XX0R FILM EVER! is trolling and off topic.

So long as people stay true to the overall topic and spirit of the thread, they are free to post in either.

 

Well, I don't encourage gushers to post in the Sanctuary. Indeed, I prefer it when only bashers post there. As the opening post in the Sanctuary states, non-bashing posts are off-topic. Posting gushes in the Sanctuary would be like talking about the Death Star schematics in a thread on midichlorians.

edit: Strilo beat me to it.

 

I still don't understand why people need their little cliques, and can't just create new threads for the various topics. It seems to me like that would be a lot more friendly and open to everyone.

If you only want to post with friends or people you agree with, get an ezBoard. That seems to go against the purpose of a "discussion" forum, when you only allow people with a certain opinion to post.

Edit:
"Well, I don't encourage gushers to post in the Sanctuary. Indeed, I prefer it when only bashers post there."

Thank you for proving my point.

 

Jeff. Anyone can post. So long as they stay on topic in the thread.


Edit:
"Well, I don't encourage gushers to post in the Sanctuary. Indeed, I prefer it when only bashers post there."

Thank you for proving my point.

With all due respect to Binary Sunset, that is his preference. The ultimate decision on who can and cannot post there is the Mods of the TPM forum. Binary Sunset do you have issues with me posting there either just to chat or when I post something I don't like about TPM?