ST Space chase/ Crait plan discussion thread

I am not saying that she was the best example of leadership ever, of course she was not.

But this is the point the movie wants to make, to have you as audience feel the same as Poe, to question Holdo's leadership, to question her plan, only to then later show you that Poe and us (audience) were not giving her proper credit. She had a good plan.

The fact that there are people angry at her is, for me at least, proof that the movie managed to grab the audience there. There are people still mad at her, even after the movie. This is what they were going for, they really wanted to make us side with Poe, and it seems they did that very well.

I imagine my team hiding behind a wall while being shot with machine guns, and then a soldier comes to me and asks for the plan... all I would say is, "not now, no time for explaining, go back to your position and wait for your orders".

 

Ok, we all know she was the captain of her own ship, and that she was presented with an unexpected situation to lead the Raddus.

She was deep down below in the succession line for command. Leia, Ackbar, etc, etc, were in the bridge. We do not know how many levels she was below Leia in the chain of command, but we can be sure that at least Ackbar and Leia were above her.

How could the fact that she was presented with an unfamilar crew (in a day to day spaceship command and operational meaning), may have impacted her decisions?

Do you think she would have behaved the same with she was with her crew on the Ninka? I guess not, those were persons she has grown to trust and they would have trusted her much more than the crew on the Raddus.

The only shot we have from a crew member of her cruiser shows a person that seemed to be very loyal / respectful to her.

Also, considering that they did not know how they were tracked, what was on her mind about spies? That tracking was supposed to be impossible, so a spy giving their location was something to keep in mind. So why would her start trusting everyone with the plan?

Also, of course at least someone else in the bridge knew the plan, as they were loading the escape ships.

I don't see Holdo being guilty of anything evil, or not telling the plan just to play with the crew. I mean, how many people were inside the Raddus? Hundreds, at least, I forgot the exact number (they said in the movie).

Poe managed to get his closest friends, 5 or 6 if my memory serves me right, to help him with his riot. Out of a ship with hundreds, we see that 99% of the crew were professional enough to just wait for orders.

 

I was not under the impression that Finn was shown in the movie as desperate to hear Holdo's plan. He came up with a plan, and told it to Poe who was the higher ranking officer he had access to.

I am sure that Finn would have told Holdo about his plan if he had access to her. Poe decided to not tell her, which was a poor move by him.

Also, Holdo did not know about the backstory of Finn, since she mentions " a stormtrooper and a who ?" when Poe finally tells her what they were doing.

 

Well, that applies to Leia as well.

As soon as they were tracked, Leia should have asked Finn about that. And Finn should have presented himself to Leia with the information he had instead of trying to think only about protecting Rey.

Also, we do not know if someone has told about Finn to Holdo. Given her surprise about "a stormtrooper", it is reasonable to assume that was the first time someone told her about him.

In the end, we are just going over the mistakes the characters made, which were part of the plot, about making mistakes, learning from them, and making sure they do not repeat the same mistakes again.

Poe, in Crait, has shown that he learnt to be less reckless.

And to be fair, Leia did not tell Poe about the plan. She shot him instead. Why didn't Leia just enter the bridge, and tell Poe about the plan? Of course Holdo reported the plan to Leia.

 

You mean the one that deliberately withheld vital information from her and the rest of the Resistance? You're talking about that "asset"?

It legit makes me angry how little heat Poe is taking.

 

I really can't see blaming Holdo > Poe, if we are blaming.

It does feel like the Poe/Holdo dynamic wasn't thought out very well... I don't really know how else to see it. It's like someone couldn't figure out what the dynamic even was and decided to just go with whatever it became because there's no more time.

 

Their dynamic is what happens when two persons with strong personalities (and maybe too proud and stubborn) collide.

I can relate that to real life workplace, many many times.

So for me Poe vs Holdo was very realistic.

 

The only reason Poe's insubordination has an effect is due to Leia's sudden onset of incompetence in the beginning of the film.

 

I feel like they wanted some sort of gendered dynamic with conflict but couldn't decide on something more coherent?

It seems more like this is the case considering what Holdo's scenes would have been without the reshoots/cuts.

The idea that Holdo would be flirting with Poe and calling him Honey is just bizarre given the sort of situation they're in. And it's kind of like sexual harassment.

I feel like they wanted to comment on 80s office dynamics of something. It feels... outdated.

So if they were aiming for some fun new take on the Leia/Han ANH dynamic, it really didn't work.

 

When Leia met Finn, she said how brave he is (nothing like "you're just an ex-stormtrooper ew" Leia treated him with respect) and she talked to everybody about the plans of Starkiller Base


And in Rose FoD, Leia listened to Rose's ideas (the "who" to Holdo)

Spoiler

 

Really the entire plot-line feels thrown together (apparently Rian didn't want Poe to go with Finn because he "couldn't differentiate their personalities enough" or something, really Rian, really)? So this was the alternative. And wow does it NOT feel completely thought-out.

Really this conflict would have felt more natural if Leia were in Poe's position. And to make matter's worse, the movie kills off Ackbar in an incredibly lame/throwaway manner just to set up this mess, ugh.

 

Yes yes yes, this is the contrast the movie wants to make. The different leadership styles/experience between Leia and Holdo.

And it wants us to side with Poe.

If the movie managed to do everything it wanted to do, so much that we are still talking and comparing Holdo to Leia... then what is the point?

Yes it would have been better if Holdo had better communication skills. And yes, Leia was a better leader.

But this was the point all along!

 

I don't think Holdo even met Finn, and the story was set up that she didn't really know anything about him. Also I didn't think it was an "ew" tone.

Anyway, the whole thing is messed up because the Rebels/Resistance haven't been presented before as considering certain roles more "lowly" or something. The way Rose talks about Resistance heroes is just strange. I felt like they wanted to give Rose this "fan girl" aspect that didn't really make sense with her character, just as it doesn't make sense for there to be distinctions in the Resistance culture between the "heroes" and the "less important roles." It's just rather contrived.

Rose went from grief over her sister to fan-girling just all of a sudden and it was really weird.

 

I have to ask cuz maybe I'm missing something. I know Ackbar was a leader but why so much revere for him and anger over him being killed off. He survived Rotj but he was ready to retreat. Lando said they needed to give Han more time. And it was that poor a-wing pilot that crashed into the Executor's bridge that brought it down. I mean ---Ackbar was leading the fleet but what did he do that was so meritorious to warrant a bigger storyline or great send off? Or is that just nostalgia cuz we had Ackbar Kenner action figures and he was on the big screen when we were 4/5 years old?

 

It was a combination of Ackbar ordering a coordinated assault on the Executor and Arvel Crynyd piloting his damaged A-Wing into the bridge that brought it down. It was too much damage for it to take all at once.

Also, it would have been a fitting sendoff for the Admiral and would have given Holdo an opportunity to actually amount to something rather than be a stepping stone for Poe's development. So, that decision could have only been a good thing. There was nothing that would have been diminished by Ackbar taking Holdo's place.

 

An Ackbar/Holdo conflict would have been hilarious. If only THAT had happened.

 

When Poe said Finn and Rose, she replied "the stormtrooper and a who?". If she doesn't know anything about Finn, how she knows Finn was a stormtrooper? It's like she knows who is both but prefer to called them "stormtrooper" and "a who", not their names.

Leia when she met Finn: That was incredibly brave what you did. Renouncing the First Order, saving this man's life.
Finn: Thank you, ma'am. But a friend of mine was taken prisoner.
Leia: Han told me about the girl. I'm sorry. [...] We're desperate for anything you can tell us. [...] And I will do everything I can to help... but first you need to tell us all you know.

Leia made everybody felt useful, Holdo made everybody felt confused, calling people "flyboy" or "who" and refusing to make her group feel like they aren't going to die

 

Raddus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ackbar.

 

I don't remember the Holdo dialogue. But it's also a very different scene. Finn and Rose are not there and Holdo is in a hurry. Her next line is that there is no time. And obviously she doesn't know very much about Finn still.

I agree that Holdo doesn't have great leadership skills.

 

It's not that he was killed off, it's the incredibly lame and throwaway manner in which he was killed. It was basically "oh yeah and Ackbar died" that's how Rian treated it. What an incredibly insulting way to treat a decades old popular character.

And the fact that it was done to set up this pink-haired incompetent and poorly-conceived "conflict" just makes it all the worse.

 

Whats wrong with pink hair?