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Discussion TLJ Space chase/ Crait plan discussion thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Sequel Trilogy (Released Films)' started by 3sm1r, Feb 1, 2018.

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  1. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    Yeah the problem is two-fold:

    1. Poe's character has to be completely retconned in order to make this so called "arc" work (that's TLJ in a nutshell honestly).
    2. Holdo is such a poorly-written character, and I end up feeling exactly the opposite about her as I'm apparently supposed to feel.

    Again what Rian might or might not have intended only matters so much. If the execution is terrible, which it was imo, then whatever "message" was intended falls flat on it's face.
     
  2. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    From what?
     
  3. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    Where in anything beforehand was he depicted as a hot-head who rushes off to do things on his own? Because it sure as heck wasn't in TFA. Also his superiors don't trust him, well except for Leia who trusts him with that super-important mission at the beginning of TFA.

    Rian contrived a conflict out of nowhere, simple as that.
     
  4. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    But nothing in it, storywise, that shows that he doesn't have that in his locker. His exploits do show us someone who might feel as if he could take on the whole First Order himself though.

    That trust was undermined after his insubordination during that mission.

    Everything is contrived out of nothing. We've not seen yet how Poe dances round a campfire so when if and when we see that, it shall be contrived out of nothing.Unless it's a contradiction of previously contrived characterisation, for the "most daring pilot" of the resistance, then it's perfectly legitimate.

    So it's hardly a retcon.
     
  5. Jedi Jessy

    Jedi Jessy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2016
    And Poe Dameron is a 32 years old person who had a lot of experience. "Dameron followed in his late mother's footsteps and became a pilot, serving the New Republic Defense Fleet as the commander of Rapier Squadron". TLJ acted as if Poe is a teenager without no experience in the job
     
  6. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    No, TLJ acted as Poe was struggling to deal with his new position as Commander instead of just a Captain.

    Given the circunstances and his character, it was perfectly legitimate.
     
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  7. zackm

    zackm Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    I'm pretty sure the Poe comic series has shown a bit of a maverick element to his character.

    I also don't think TFA tells us really anything about Poe as a character other than that he's a boss pilot. The opening crawl even refers to him as the Resistance's "most daring pilot." Anything beyond that is pure conjecture.
     
  8. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Exactly. And his description as "daring" itself has both the positive and the negative connotation as we see in Poe.
     
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  9. La Calavera

    La Calavera Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2015
    In TFA Poe was portrayed as immensely respectful of General Organa, which makes all the more jarring to see him so blatantly disobey her and cutting her off. Ironically, he was also portrayed (intended or not) as a guy who was more ready to give up on a mission than obsessively pursue it. The “why did he abandon the mission” criticism could have been used as a flaw or a plot point for his character development; instead we got a hot-headed, mansplaining and goal-obsessed stranger to serve a story than imo didn't exactly fit his character.

    Yeah. He surely does not act like someone with years of experience in the military who held the rank of a Commander or Captain, but more like a dumb, impulsive freshman who skipped Information Security class and makes a scene on his first day.
     
  10. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Commanders with years of experience, and usually success, have sometimes been known to get above themselves and take risks for gains of dubious strategic worth. Crucially when the risk was not theirs to calculate or to take. General George S. Patton, for example.
     
    Vicarious Fan likes this.
  11. zackm

    zackm Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    In TFA Poe is reckless...He tells tells FN-2187 about the map to Luke Skywalker about 3 minutes after meeting him.
    In TFA Poe obsessively pursues his mission to retrieve the map, despite Finn telling him that going back to Jakku will get them both killed.

    Whatever you're describing wasn't in TFA.
     
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  12. La Calavera

    La Calavera Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2015
    He had a vital mission in TFA, it wasn’t just his own obsession. The Resistance was desperate for the map.
    He then mysteriously abandons the mission.
    That was in TFA.

    I’m not sure why him telling a defected stormtrooper about a map in a droid which at this point the entire FO knew about and it was no longer a secret has anything to do with him being reckless.

    EDIT: Btw, I do think there is at least one example of Poe being a bit reckless in TFA, which was went on to shoot Kylo Ren after he killed LST.
    But his overall characterization in TFA just doesn’t translate well with the “hot-headed, mansplaining and goal-obsessed” character RJ went for in TLJ to me.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
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  13. zackm

    zackm Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    How exactly did he abandon the mission?

    He told a complete stranger that a map to Luke Skywalker was in a one of a kind orange and white BB unit. I'm failing to see how that is anything but reckless.
     
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  14. La Calavera

    La Calavera Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2015
    Because he was on a mission to retrieve the map and then he just… sort of stopped trying? Next scene we saw him he was in a completely different mission. Not saying he abandoned out of his own will; maybe when he woke up after the crash he was immediately reassigned to another mission, but he just doesn’t come across as someone who would obsessively purse a certain goal against orders.

    He told Finn why he needed to go to Jakku after that “complete stranger” saved his life and risked his own to get out of the FO because “he wanted to do the right thing.” I viewed it as a needed trust-building moment, and a harmless one because the FO already knew about the map and the droid after Kylo Ren used his Force jutsu to get that info out of Poe. It was important for later when Poe introduced Finn to Leia as someone of trust he could vouch for, after they met again (with the droid being brought by Finn and co.).
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
  15. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    He didn't abandon his mission in TFA but it was not necessary to engineer a plot where Poe is set up to be unruly and reckless in the next movie. Neither does the story in TFA preclude that side if him being revealed under certain circumstances like those he finds himself and the Resistance in at the beginning of TLJ. Fresh from successfully destroying SKB, Poe is eager to go on an opportunistic counterattack that is not worth the risk considering the stakes.
     
  16. zackm

    zackm Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    Huh? The next time we see him is on Takodana when he's leading a team to retrieve BB-8. He literally never stops trying to get the map until the Resistance has the map.
     
  17. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015

    the part where he basically begs her for hope would've also been a good point. I think she should've at least told him "there is a plan, but we're keeping things on a need to know. Leia trusts me, you need to do the same.". At that point, if poe still started a mutiny, then i'd have totally agreed with the stance that he's in the wrong.


    EDIT: There are a hundred different questions, from "why didn't they use droids to fly the ships" to "why didn't they abandon the raddus and hyperjump away?". This is the reason I feel the entire space chase subplot simply doesn't work. I think there could've been a few different scenarios that would've created more suspense, tension, and entertainment. Plus they could've done a cat and mouse chase that allowed them to world build.

    The biggest issue I have with crait is that its a rehash of hoth. I wish they'd have worked to create a truly new world to have a unique ground battle on.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
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  18. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    They have absolutely nothing to do with each other, regarding structure, plot, action, outcomes... anything at all.

    The only thing in common is that both have walkers. But even the walkers do very different things in both scenes.
     
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  19. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015

    sigh...........white background, ATATs, trench warfare, speeders being blown up by ATATs. Please, you tell me that crait wasn't meant to invoke hoth. Tell me that, while we get shots of ATATs approaching on the horizon. As we get shots of rebels prepping for the fight in trenches. The film is so self aware of this that it pauses itself to tell us the white is not snow, but salt. Like......come...on.
     
  20. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    The movie pauses to tell us the RED is not snow, it is salt.

    The other points you mentioned are almost saying that any space battle is also a rehash because they use X-Wings, while completely disregarding the completely different plots, structure, action and outcomes.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
  21. godisawesome

    godisawesome Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    I'd argue that since the Crait battle uses snow trooper uniforms (on a temperate planet, no less), and since the Walkers largely fulfill the same exact mission objective (remove heroes' defenses,), and since the heroes have effectively the same objectives (hold off Walker assault and defend the static defenses, then evacuate if possible), the entire sequence is clearly meant to, at the very minimum, be a clear and explicit homage.

    I think Johnson fully meant for there to be an blatant "echo" of the past here. The biggest difference is in the circumstance leading up to the battle (which again several of us think are severely flawed) and the degree of the loss on the part of the heroes. Heck the film even takes a situation that could be significantly different in tone and even semantics at the end; instead of The Resistance being rescued and evacuated by Galactic forces coming to their aid and demonstrating how the situation should be different, we have a new Rebellion fleeing into outsource to regroup and nurse its wounds.

    I'll actually admit that, excluding my disappointment at the lack of imagination in having the Galaxy ignore the situation and the current miltary and political context in favor of so directly along the OT, I actually don't mind the overall structure of Crait... Up until Rose gets badly written to try and deliver an oxymoronic Aesop.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
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  22. 3sm1r

    3sm1r Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Kylo already knew it. There was nothing reckless in telling it to Finn at that point in the story.
     
  23. Cantina Regular

    Cantina Regular Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    May 24, 2016
    In TFA Poe charged a guy holding a lightsaber. It was like the first thing he did.

    Don't get me wrong, I loved it but it was reckless
     
    Ricardo Funes likes this.
  24. zackm

    zackm Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    He doesn't know Finn. Finn is a stranger. He has no idea what Finn will do with that information. Kylo knowing is completely irrelevant.
     
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  25. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    I saw a novelization leak in which Kylo and the TIEs are ordered back on Snoke's orders. So that takes it off of Hux at least.

    Snoke was pleased and amused when Hux told him about how the Resistance is tied on the end of a string. He actually does like to play with his food.
     
    Cantina Regular likes this.