CT Special edition - worst and best changes

This is a really odd statement. What does this mean, succeeded? The SE is the only version of the movies that are commercially available. If you want to watch or buy an official copy of the OT films, you have to watch or buy the SE. Of course it succeeded in financial terms. However, they are never going to be seen as anything more than alterations of the historically far more significant original versions. The version of Star Wars selected for preservation by the National Film registry, and the version that can be seen at the Library of Congress is the original version. So, yes from a commercial perspective the only versions available are the SE, and most have come to accept this reality, but from a historic perspective the only versions that will continue to be seen as relevant are the original versions.

 

Lol of course you think it's a really odd statement. But if you would, for just a moment, step out into the real world with the rest of us, you'd realize that the vast majority of the Star Wars-watching public accepts and even *gasp* enjoys the SE versions. New generations have been raised on them and will continue to be raised on them. The SEs have now been the most widely watched version of the films for a longer period of time than the original versions were. For most fans alive today, the SEs are their Star Wars, with the original versions being little more than an interesting curiosity. Their warm feelings and fuzzy sense of nostalgia relates to the SEs, not the originals. This is unlikely to change even in the event that the original versions are one day released again as well (and of course they will be). It's too late for that to make much difference. I know this must upset you greatly, that it probably cuts you right to your very soul, but it's the reality.

You can cling to your historical significance all you want, but it won't change what actually ends up being significant to the average person. So from where I sitting, to make even the unnecessarily qualified statement that they have largely succeeded does not strike me as an odd statement at all. The fact that such an uncontroversial statement would provoke such an incredulous reaction from you is what strikes me as really odd, though of course not at all unexpected.

 

You are misrepresenting the facts. The reality that the SE is the version that most people see as their Star Wars, is not because it is the SE, but because it is the only version of Star Wars available. It is just Star Wars to them, an aging set of popular films from the 70s and 80s. People like the OT, but most don't care which version they are watching. If Disney for the sake of argument were to replace the SE with the originals (and I personally would not be in favour of releasing the OOT without the blessing of Lucas), I doubt there would be many protests by the general audience, or the fanbase to bring back the SE. So, pointing to the general audience, or the fanbase as a whole to argue that the SE has succeeded, is really quite pointless. The fact that a version of these films is available, is good enough for the vast majority of fans and people in general. However, the point of historical significance still stands, and will stand till the end of time, no matter what version of the films is in circulation. History stands, and no amount of revisionism is going to change that. I should also add, that it is interesting to note, how with time reviewers and fans keep pointing out more, and more, how much worse the CGI additions have aged, compared to the original effects in the film, once again enforcing the idea, that the alterations will always be seen as largely unnecessary, and in many cases detrimental to the films as a whole. The SE changes are begrudgingly accepted for the most part, not embraced, which they never have been from the first day they were introduced (with perhaps a few exceptions). The narrative has never been "Look how Lucas has again improved these films!", but always "The tinkerer strikes again! Why can't he just leave them alone?". That is not succeeding. The legacy of the OT to this day is determined by the stuff, that was there from the very beginning, while the greatest legacy of the SE parts is a bunch of memes:

 

To be fair, it was a selling point for the first Special Edition (new scenes, cleaned up effects, etc). While it may have always been the intention to replace the OOT, I don't think audiences really understood this at the time and just saw this as a special event and an excuse to see Star Wars in theaters again. Plus, throughout the VHS's lifespan, the tapes of the originals were readily available. Into the DVD era was when it became an issue, and people were taking note of the new additions in the 2004 version.

 

If you spend all your time in hardcore Star Wars fan communities and talking to your friends who tend to feel the same way as you, yeah, you're going to end up with the distorted view you have. But I'm telling you, you're living in a bubble, dude. Things just aren't nearly the way you think they are.

 

If my world view is so distorted, please point me to the many reviews from the 2011 bluray release, by the media, fans, and people in general, that praise the new additions, or point me to the praise heaped on the addition of McClunky. You just have to go through the thousands of reviews on sites like amazon.com to see how the average person feels about the SE. You will be hard pressed to find a review praising the changes. Conversly you will find a ton of reviews that lament the exclusion of the theatrical versions. As I said, what made the OT special to multiple generations has been there from day one. There isn't some group of people out there who love these movies specifically for the changes Lucas made to them. The SE succeeded in spite of all the needless changes, and additions, not because of them.

 

The average person doesn't take time out of their day to write Amazon reviews. The average person doesn't care. The average person from my generation onward grew up with the movies in this form and yes, this is the way they like them. I'm sorry that's so upsetting to you, but it is what it is. You don't have to feel the same way if you don't want to.

Now, this conversation is boring me and I'll be moving on.

So, is it just me, or has artificial grain been added to the 4K upscaled version of ROTS? Kind of a shame, I liked the sharp, clean look of the original version.

 

I think artificial grain has been added to give the perception of more detail to the upscaled image. Of all the PT films AOTC generally looks the best for me, or at least looks more pleasing to me, than the bluray. The new color grading in my view really helps to nicely blend the sets, and digital environments.

 

To me, the best changes didn't actually change the shot/edit, these include removing mat lines, making Luke's lightsaber blue on the Falcon, and adding the wires to Han's feet in RotJ.

The worst changes to me are adding Jabba in SW, Greedo shooting 1st, changing the emperor's dialogue in TESB, Vader yelling NOOOOO, and replacing Shaw.

 

It doesn't look like it was added to AOTC, though. IIRC ROTS was technically filmed at a lower resolution than AOTC, but would the difference really have been that stark that artificial grain was required for one and not the other?

 

I wouldn't think so. Very odd that they would add grain to one film, and not the other.

 

It matters as it shows that more than one version of a film can be released and not cause problems.
And a fair few directors don't have an issue with that.
Also from what I recall, the 1997 SE came about because Fox wanted to do a re-release for the 20th anniversary and Lucas took the chance to make the SE.

And what of the other artists that worked on those films?
Don't they have any rights?

He has already released a version that has been made available to the public in 1977.
That was enjoyed and scrutinized. And made lots of money for Lucas.

And he isn't being consistent.
Lucas has said that he wants films he saw as a kid to be preserved so that he can show them to his children. But for any that saw Star Wars in 1977 as a kid and wants to show that film to their kids, then that thinking no longer applies.

The larger context of what Lucas was talking about is film history.
The importance of cultural legacy and film heritage, that if an original work of art is lost due to alteration or negligence then that is a loss to society as a whole.
That the public's interest is ultimately dominant over all other interests.

He spoke out against people making alterations to films that they just owned, even over the objections of the artists in questions. But he also spoke of films getting lost due to people not taking proper care of them.
And he also said that just because an artist works for hire doesn't make them any less of an artist and thus should not be excluded from protection.

The director of RotJ was dead and that did not stop Lucas from altering it.
What Lucas was objecting was alteration of films yes but also more than that.
That film history should be preserved and that future generations should be able to see the versions of films that past generations saw.

The Moral rights or Berne Convention. He spoke about that in Congress.
And he said very clearly that even hired artists should not be excluded from protection in the form of Moral Rights. That just because an artist works for hire does not make them any less of an artist.
And he said that artists needs a sense that the work they are doing is meaningful and will last, ie not be altered or removed 10-20 years later.

Again, Lucas has said "Is an artist for hire any less or an artist?"
Did none of the people that worked on the SW films have an artistic vision other than Lucas?
Were they just hired hands that only did what Lucas told them to?

Lucas mentions production designers, cinematographers and other people that contribute to the film.
To him, they are also artists and should not be excluded from protection by Moral Rights.
He also mentions actors, that they are "pinned like helpless butterflies as their faces are recolored, their wardrobe redesigned, their timing thrown off, their entrances and exists truncated and their characterization shorn of critical dialogue."

Also, Lucas has spoken out before against the studio system, that the studio could come in and take over a film and alter over the objections of the director.
But the director works for the studio yes? So according to you, he or she has no right to argue.

Here is the thing, if an actor feels his or her screen time is not what was suggested when they were hired, they have the option of quitting the film. Same goes for most people working on a film.
While it is being made, they could quit.

But if a film is altered years after release and the work people put into it are removed or changed then they have no recourse. They can do nothing. At most they could ask their credit being removed.
That is what Moral Rights were about, to give artists a say in altering old works.
That applies also if the artists in question are dead and can not give their approval or not.
Protection against having their works be altered years after the fact in essence.

Take Hayden, he was put into RotJ without his approval or even knowledge, he had find out through the media.
Do you think directors should be able to take footage of actors that are currently working for them and then coping that footage into other films that the actor hasn't worked on?

What should also last is the original, to preserve film history, the version that was first shown to the public because that is when it entered film history. And for SW that was in 1977, not in 1997, 2004 or 2010.
Lucas could make newer versions if he wants to, no argument against that. But keep the originals around as well.
Lucas himself argues that as he wants future generations to be able to see the versions that were seen by past generations.
And the original should also last to preserve the work that all the people did to bring it life back in the day.

And your proof of this is?
Have you asked all these people, made a big poll?

Umm.. he HAS put more than one movie out there. There was the original, several there if you like, the 97 SE, the 2004 DVD and then the bluray and now the D+ version.
So like it or not, he IS competing with himself, hence why people make comparisons between the SE and the originals.

And Like DrDre, I find your argument about succeeding odd, you said that Lucas does not want competing versions so only one should be out there.
So how much success is there by winning a competition where there is just one competitor?
For the last 10+ years, the SE is the only one that is easily available and in an up to date quality.
So that most have watched the SE is likely due to that, there hasn't been much in the ways of options.

You say lots of people like the SE and no argument there. But how many of them would also have liked the originals if they had the option of seeing them?

And here is the rub, Lucas can do this because he owns the copyright.

And he does not have to do what they did, he can do as he pleases.
But what those examples show is that it is possible to release more than one version without harming the version the directors prefers.
So there was nothing that prevented Lucas from having the original preserved along with his versions.
He choose not to, which he is free to do but he should also then be aware that some might take him to task over this. And here he can not totally avoid responsibility.

And people won't see "Directors cut" and think that this is the one preferred by the director?
Special editions and directors cut have been fairly common over the last 30 or so years.
So they are not unknown concepts.
The extended versions of the LotR films sold really well given that they were more of a niche product aimed at fans.

But say that 95% would be happy with the SE and 5% are not. But if the original was around as well and now 100% were happy. Were is the downside? Those that like the SE have that and those that like the original have that. Win-win. And film history is preserved.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

It's almost paradoxical to talk about how casual audiences really feel about these kinds of things when everyone here is conditioned to see things through the eyes of a fan. How can we go about sifting through what opinions can be quantified as dedicated fans or casual audience members? Really, you can't. The only thing unbiased is the sales numbers or streams, which is either classified or hard to dig up. Only Lucasfilm knows for sure.

I do have one source for the numbers of Blu-ray sales (not even sure where the data originates)
https://www.the-numbers.com/alltime-bluray-sales-chart
Unfortunately there is not a point of comparison for this in DVD sales. Even so, Blu-ray releases have been rather unconventional being done in groups of boxsets well before individual releases.

I'm trying to imagine the best scenario that would offer an unbiased comparison of consumers' preference of SE or non-SE. The first matchup is the original 92/95 release vs. the Special Edition 97/00 VHS releases. Furthermore, we also have the Limited Edition DVDs from 2006 vs the 2004 SE release.

 

The numbers is showing The Star Wars Saga BluRay set is the most profitable BluRay ever released. It's made more money than any other home video release by a wide margin. Then factor in the OT only and PT only sets, as well the single releases and it is far and away the most successful home video release on BluRay. Maybe not the most copies sold, but the most money made.

Nothing on BluRay sold better than the 2011 cuts of Star Wars. I guess that means there is very little incentive to release multiple versions of the movies because these are selling so well already.

 

Well - I've always defended the Special Edition changes. I don't hate them, that's for sure. But today I finally got round to watching the '77 version of Star Wars, unadulterated.

It's simply a better movie than the Special Edition. None of the effects are so bad they really needed updating (even in 4k) - in fact, at certain points, the original elements are markedly superior. The film in its original edit flows better (it's hard to explain what an impact this has, you have to see it for yourself), the film looks much better (the Blu Ray versions seem strangely dark compared to the original film). Basically, there are good technical film-making reasons that it was perhaps the most beloved film of all time.

It was, as a Star Wars fan, after all these years, a frankly beautiful and moving experience, one I would recommend to any other fan out there who hasn't got round to it yet. I think I'm done with the Special Editions - permanently.

 

Where'd you see it?

 

Erm - on a friend's TV? I believe it was a well known recent 4k restoration. I'm not sure we're supposed to discuss it here.

 

That one doesn't count. "Unediting" the SE isn't making it the Original. Just watch the OT on the ltd ed DVDs that came out not too long ago. Or, do like I did and get the original THX laserdiscs and get them converted over.
The single thing - the ONLY thing - I dislike about the SEs is removing "Lapti Nek." I mean, really?

 

I think he's talking about the 35mm film restoration. It's about as pure an experience as one can get because it's what people actually saw in theaters back in the day. And it's far better than those 2006 DVDs, which were based on outdated laserdisc transfers.

 

Never saw the 35mm version. Dangit! LOL

 

Check it out when you get the chance. I was not too bothered, and did it on a whim - now the arguments as to cultural heritage make total sense.

 

That's how I'd want to see them. I don't have any interest in a fan edit that tries to recreate the 1995 THX VHS tapes in 720 resolution. These scanned 4K film prints are fascinating.

 

What shocked me the most about it was the blast of recognition that hit me after 25 years, the realisation that this was what they're supposed to look like. The special editions have lost that classic 70s filmic look to an extent.

 

The BluRays have. The new 4K versions look fantastic. They look like film.

 

The Disney + versions? I'll have to check them out.