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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST ST Complimentary Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Darth Downunder, Dec 13, 2017.

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  1. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of Future Films star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2012
    He's definitely incompetent. Like Canady says he should have deployed the TIE fighters the minute Poe shows up instead of letting him distract him. But he wants to relish his victory instead of just getting the job done and that allows the Resistance to escape. He doesn't check for ships leaving the Raddus until a criminal tells him about them and then fails to recognize the threat posed by Holdo until it's too late.

    I would argue he doesn't really show much competence in TFA either. He uses a secret superweapon to blow up the capital of the rival government and then immediately loses that superweapon. Once he's in an actual military situation he completely bungles the operation. He's a talentless hack... but an entertaining one! :p
     
  2. 3sm1r

    3sm1r Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2017
    I'd say his biggest mistake was not sending the fighters to destroy the transports after they were detected.
     
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  3. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    I like Hux as a villain... in TFA, where I think he is genuinely energetic, logical, and at least somewhat competent, with a fanatical and hungry edge that keeps him genuinely threatening, with Phasma's selfishness and Kylo's obsession costing the First ORder SKB more than anything he failed to do. And I'll leave it at that here.

    Anyways, for another big praise for me for the ST (or just TFA:p)...

    ...Anyone else think Finn's character arc in TFA is maybe the most in-depth and best executed for a *single* film in the trilogy? Luke and Anakin go through more across their whole trilogies, sure, but Finn, in one film, goes from a literally nameless and faceless henchman to Resistance big deal and savior of the Galaxy. There's a lot of distance his character covers in one film, and the execution is masterful: from his horrifying epiphany about the evil of the First Order in a scene where his feelings are conveyed strictly through a physical freak out from behind a mask, to his confession to Rey about his fallibility and lies, to his refusal to escape when SKB destroys the Hosnian System, to his successful destruction of SKB's defenses and brave stand against Kylo.

    To me, Finn's story is the ST's greatest asset and most defining advantage.
     
  4. La Calavera

    La Calavera Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2015
    Oh I’m not disagreeing that Hux in incompetent in the context of Star Wars, I’m just wondering if he really is that in incompetent in the context of the ST, because almost everyone feels staggeringly incompetent. Hux did some dumb mistakes, but so did the Resistance. And compared to the other FO guys, Hux isn’t either worse or better (well, he is better compared to Kylo, and even Snoke, who doesn’t seem be even aware of the technology his own ship possesses). Cannady is another guy who could’ve ended the Resistance if he just focused the cannons on the deserting ships instead on the emptied base on the planet.

    I wouldn’t however pin Holdo’s successful maneuver on Hux’ incompetence. Considering the radius of damage and how quick it was, there wasn’t much Hux could do to mobilize the ships away from it in time. I do still wonder why Holdo didn't do that earlier. But "not checking for ships leaving the Raddus" says as much about his incompetence as it says about the older and supposedly wiser Resistance leaders for thinking that was a good plan - and it is really no wonder why they were down to 20 people at the end of the day.
     
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  5. 3sm1r

    3sm1r Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 27, 2017
    My take was that during the maneuver the Raddus became close enough to be easily destroyed by the Supremacy's cannons.
     
  6. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of Future Films star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2012
    Or the Resistance leaders are aware of how incompetent Hux is and are banking on him overlooking the transports. They don't have many options since their ship is about to run out of fuel. It's a throw of the dice.
     
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  7. La Calavera

    La Calavera Force Ghost star 4

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    Sep 2, 2015
    I mean, why Holdo waited for the transports to be destroyed before doing it. It was presented as a more reactive tactic than an actual pre-defined plan.

    They had if they had fueled their ships before leaving base and if they set out evacuation bases or emergency plans. But even without that, they could use their transports with HD to either evacuate personnel or reach out to their allies or both, since the FO clearly wasn’t tracking those.

    And that was not even the worst. The worst was the "tactic" on Crait against AT-ATs... whatever they were trying to accomplish with that.
     
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  8. 3sm1r

    3sm1r Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 27, 2017
    Oh, on this I'm with you 100%.
    The same is true for the other pilot who was left on the first ship they abandoned.
     
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  9. La Calavera

    La Calavera Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2015
    Before this derails into the Space Chase thread, what I mean is Hux doesn’t really come across as more visibly incompetent compared to other characters.

    I also think that Kylo Ren better represents the theme of “nepotism”, as in his case it’s pretty clear he got his position because of his bloodline.

    I would agree however that the FO, via both Hux and Kylo, evokes the radicalized youth and the disregard for the older and the wiser. I think that is meant to be contrasted with the Resistance, where the youth needs to learns from the older (in the case of Poe/Holdo) and respect them to grow more mature.
     
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  10. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of Future Films star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2012
    It's very likely the Resistance doesn't have the fuel to fill their ships up. They're even more underfunded than the Rebellion and we see in Solo how expensive a commodity hyperfuel is. They weren't expecting the First Order would be able to track their ships through hyperspace. That isn't incompetence to me. That's just bad luck.

    As for Crait... they are trying to destroy the battering ram cannon by the only means they have available to them. They quickly realize it's not going to work though and retreat. Again their options are limited. They have to at least try to destroy it.
     
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  11. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    @godisawesome
    It's absolutely a good, strong, classical hero's journey of an arc for one-movie. Love how it starts. Love that we learn that he doesn't want to do this. Love how he initially wants to run. Discovers someone worth fighting for and goes right back to the place he was raised to help get her out of there. Nice, tight, 3 act structure within one film which is something ANH and TFA both have on offer and why so many people enjoyed those experiences to the degree that they do. My only criticism and I'm glad it was addressed din VIII is that I never really felt Finn was tested or tempted by another path beyond heroism or beyond fear. He had pretended to be a big deal so I wanted to see more of him obsess over the kinds of things he thought would really make him a big deal mistakenly like opportunities for money or wealth or his own ships and get a better idea of the kind of man he wanted to be. We get more of that in VIII thankfully which is good because I was curious about that. It's a good arc though but there's not an awful lot for me to chew on in subtext there.

    The best one-film arc in the saga is Luke's in VIII for my money though. Even if you didn't know Luke from before you're getting almost a look at a legend lost that needs to be built back together by someone as badly as that someone needs guidance from him. He starts broken and nearly dead inside and ends reborn and epitomizing "luminous beings are we."

    His arc works even if you have only a passing knowledge of Luke Skywalker as a legend or for someone like me who obsesses over the father and son specifics of his arc and who was always curious about whether the Dark Side would forever dominate his path or not and how.

    We meet a man who doesn't want to be found. He's literally an immovable object and he's meeting this newly unstoppable force in Rey who has mostly been able to will things to happen suddenly. Even if you knew nothing about the Jedi Order there are clear religious parallels that one could apply to the situation. The last of a religion doesn't want the religion to ever be found again by anyone and nothing will change his mind. This once great legend is now living a humble existence off the land and has a view of life that goes beyond lifespans. He's thinking about the future of the galaxy and what's best for it over centuries. There may even be some truth to the twisted worldview he's come to accept and the atheist within me that's long disliked the amount of war and conflict observed over relgions on our planet does think there's some truth to what he's become mislead to believe but the beauty of that is that he never follows through. There's enough there for someone like me to think perhaps he's right but Johnson never lets him go all the way there and Luke realizes it's wrong.

    What's changed with this man? What made him so broken? Who died that upset him so? Why is he so disenfranchised with this religion? Even if a new observer dug deeper they'd find answers. They'd see the pain this man's family has brought to the galaxy and the inherited shame he likely learned more and more of as the extent of his father's deeds grew alongside his wisdom and he was no longer the young, naive young man he once was who only wanted his father's love but now a man who'd come to recognize just how much sheer pain his family has caused others. He was broken. Lost. Misguided. Who can help someone who thinks what they're doing is right? How can this immovable object be moved?

    The thawing starts slowly. A moment forever captured in time. R2D2 and the hologram of his sister. The moment that changed his life forever. The moment that moved him from an ordinary life toward this extraordinary life he's been on since. How did he come to this? What is left of the boy who answered that call before? He agrees to teach where he previously said he would not but only on his own terms. And those terms still contain the darkness and the anger and the shame he's carrying with him and what is holding him back as a teacher and as a leader and as a brother and as an uncle and a Jedi.

    This is a brand new form of the darkside we are seeing and it's one that many people watching can relate to more than killing younglings or becoming what his father did. This is a dark side for the 21st century in a world where we've never had more access to more pain and suffering around the world and can't seem to find solutions to break these cycles. The darkness of the world can feel overwhelming. We can feel like part of the problem. We can feel feel like we are helpless and that only someone else with some new ideas that we don't have will come along and fix these problems for us. Or, we can work on what's really going on inside and rise.

    Luke Skywalker finally reconnects to a part of himself that had been there for decades. He listens to outside opinions. He realizes there is a way forward. A way he can teach others. A way where everything that's consumed him can be re-purposed to help others. However, this epiphany and this moment of clarity comes too late. He's rediscovered the hero from within and a better sense of purpose than the one he previously thought was best. It matters not though. He's without a ship. People will be hurt soon. Hope will be lost and it's all his fault. Should he give up yet again? No!

    He takes everything he's learned in his lifetime and does something nobody has ever seen before and helps save his sister as he had before. He gives a Solo a second chance to find a new path as he once had before. He atones for his regrets and sacrifices his mortal life to save others and is rewarded with the greatest honor a Jedi can have: Immortality. He has found new purpose. This arc is literally the end of Campbell's hero's journey. It's the latter stages. Stages rarely seen on film before because you often don't have the time with a character to make it that far. This is an ambitious, psychological arc that truly does add new layers to the greatest Father and Son story ever told with Luke's own dark period both mirroring that of his father's dark period, but in a Luke-centric way, and also nicely distinguishing itself from the level of Darkness his father was known for at his absolute lowest.

    This arc gets into a ton of fascinating ideas. The risk for religious fundamentalism outliving the teachings or opinions of any one master is a clear undercurrent represented by the books and his obsession with them. The way in which all of us as people can come across countless close calls in life where we narrowly avoid negative consequence only to repeat that later in life specifically perhaps because we never really did learn the way we should and perhaps because some of us unfortunately do learn things the hard way. The way in which the self of an otherwise great person can become a threat to the self rather than a more worthy adversary. The roles of nature and nurture from father and son receive some new layers because of this arc. The way we treat heroes who may need saving of their own later in life once the positive traits that made them likable have been replaced with less desirable traits and needs of their own. It's a powerhouse arc anchored by Hamill's career-best performance and the ambition of Rian Johnson aiming more for Bergman than of Abrams. To be clear, Johnson's idealism for the arc did exceed his execution but so has a lot of great art. If you've ever asked yourself, "Why the hell does this Ender and Bean guy like TLJ so much?" This arc is largely it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2018
  12. The Deuteragonist

    The Deuteragonist Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2018
    You already know I agree that Finn is the heart of the Trilogy, but I actually think his arc is one of the more developed ones in the franchise (as far as the movies are concerned). Anakin and Luke do go through more, but one thing I always appeciate (even if it’s not perfect) is that Finn, like Obi-Wan and Han, has his own story. His arc isn’t there to serve Rey, Kylo, Poe or any of the other characters. He has his own feelings, his own character development, his own love interest(s), his own climactic battles, and his own enemies. That’s rare for a black main character in blockbuster films. And before Finn, I couldn’t really think of many films like that other than Creed or The Princess and the Frog.
     
  13. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    I think one of the more underrated aspects of the ST is that it makes use of surprises in both VII and VIII and we now live in an era where we can conveniently re-watch content over and over again so the initial impact and fun factor of some of those surprises gets minimized. A surprise will almost always work best on first viewing though and both movies deliver a ton of storytelling fun in the moment for those who didn't spoil anything in advance as the imagination is working out the various possibilities.

    I'm a big fan of the mind bridge for example. On first watch I had no idea what was occurring or why. It felt magical and it had been some time since I felt the wonder of the force in that way. It was a mystery box sensation not only for me but also the characters though. I enjoyed that as well. Neither Rey nor Ben could quite explain it but knew it was special and were worried about talking about it with others. Why was the force connecting them, Ben asks. Were they fated? Were they related? Were they the reincarnation of two famous Jedi from the past with some prophecy about to be revealed? The mind raced with possibilities and really helped me to buy into more of why both were also drawn to each other to discover more.

    The moment when Snoke reveals it's him hits like a ton of bricks. Ben is shocked. Rey is suddenly scared. And the mind draws back to what Snoke said in TFA about how he wants to completed Ben's training just as Snoke is now commanding him to kill him to... complete his training. It's a great moment. Especially when first experienced.
     
  14. lovethedarkside

    lovethedarkside Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 10, 2017
    Good point about the difficulties of surprises when we can rewatch over and over again. One thing I love about TLJ is how the real meanings and surprises are revealed the more you watch it. There continue to be surprises!
     
  15. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    I’m pretty curious about the lead-up to Ahch-To and the process Luke took.

    Did he initially seek out the ancient texts for answers and instead discover even more anger about the Order?

    Did he know of the ancient texts as the last significant teachings that would outlive himself and seek out the island to destroy them and end the order immediately to ensure no one would ever discover them long after he was dead someday and relaunch the Jedi Order in a more fundamentalist way?

    Were Lor and he onto the discovery of the island prior to the temple massacre with happier and more notable intentions that then changed once he awoke to what his nephew had become? Is that why Lor says, “Without the Jedi there can be no balance in the force?” Because Luke saw him one last time prior and told him his plan to end the Order permanently? Is that why Lor felt that handing over the info would begin to make things right?

    When did he drop R2 off at Han and Leia’s and update them on what happened so that they knew and so that he knew that Leia blamed Snoke more than him?

    I would love to get a Sebastian Stan anthology film with him as Luke over a couple decades (with some aging makeup and maybe Mark later for the closer to resent day scenes) and get into some of Luke’s more heroic moments in the decade’s between and the start of the temple and his relationship with Lor and his life goal that turned on him of finding the temple.
     
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  16. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    Surprises work best, and hold up dramatically on repeat viewings, when they are actually really well set-up by previous events, but are simply hard to see coming. GoT does this very well. The shocks actually flow very logically from the character and story development laid down before them. Rob Stark made some fundamental mistakes that were portrayed as admirable things to do, and those were at the root of the surprise at the end of his story.

    The surprises in the ST, however, often seem to come out of the blue, and are therefore less effective. That said, looking back, I think there was good character and story set up for Snoke to be offed, so that’s an example of a justified surprise, I think.
     
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  17. ewoksimon

    ewoksimon Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 26, 2009
    Minor visual detail I love: The meta moment of the fathiers "knocking over" the camera sitting on the race track.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  18. Libs

    Libs Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 17, 2018

    You might actually be the very first person I've spoken to online that..

    ..
    ..

    Made me somewhat rethink my previous thoughts about Luke's arc in TLJ

    Wow, that was impressive.. most, most impressive.

    My biggest let down in TLJ were Luke and Snoke, and I will still say I'm very dissapointed in how they turned up. But man you did that terrificly, kudos

    Now my view has shifted from bad and tasteless to... not all that bad actually. Not what I wanted in a million years, but very intruiging

    You.. wouldn't be able to do the same thing with Snoke for me would you? :p
     
  19. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    OH, he might. He's good.
     
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  20. Libs

    Libs Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 17, 2018
    I will await his convience ;)
     
  21. MarcJordan

    MarcJordan Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 17, 2014
    Why are you here?

    [​IMG]

    Something inside me, has always been there and now it's awake...
    [​IMG]

    and I'm afraid. I don't know what it is or what to do with it.

    [​IMG]

    And inside you?

    [​IMG]

    Inside me...that same Force.


    [​IMG]

    MJ
     
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  22. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Nah. Snoke is just a Sidious 2.0 afterthought built from a brainstorming session of determining that made Star Wars a success. He could have been built up more. I’m happier he was instead split in two and is no longer with us.

    I write from the heart. The Luke arc works for me for the reasons I’ve shared. If it didn’t I’d have found VIII less interesting overall.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2018
  23. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    Just want to drop by to repeat how awesome I (and the people in multiple theaters with me) found Rey getting the lightsaber in TFA.
    [​IMG]
    Brilliant storytelling. Brilliant acting. And a perfect symbolization of Rey becoming the successor to Luke and Anakin's heroism while Kylo scrambles to be the Vader heir.

    Not to mention, it's another part where TFA breaks out some great orchestration from Williams, this time repackaging the classic theme as a kind of somber, dream-like "coronation" theme.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2018
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  24. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    What’s great is how the new story developments can change aspects of how we view the past. I also enjoy that shot @godisawesome and I love how it evolves from that into this even more tantalizing moment where people are then watching and excited to see what it will be like for these two to work together.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I also enjoy how Rey’s first close your eyes and let the Force in moment in TFA sets up the development of that later.

    [​IMG]

    I love this foreshadowing as well.

    “Size matters not. Only different in your mind.”

    [​IMG]

    Cutting back to that first lesson and her face:
    [​IMG]

    And then her opening her eyes later...

    [​IMG]

    Note: Sorry for the VHS quality final gif.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2018
  25. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    In what way, though? Because so far, this trilogy hasn’t altered my perception of the previous trilogies one bit.
    I’d love to hear your thoughts on this! :)
     
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