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ST ST Criticism Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Pro Scoundrel , Jun 1, 2018.

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  1. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel New Films Expert At Modding Casual star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Ok peeps, this is the "Official" thread for criticism of the ST films.

    1. Criticism, not bashing. Don't know the difference, don't post.


    2. The purpose of the thread is for people to discuss their criticisms of the ST films. That doesn't make it another Sanctuary, because the "no bashing" rule is in effect, and limited debate is allowed.
    Debating criticisms is meant to only take place occasionally, in the case that someone's criticism is provably false. It is not meant to be someone's only purpose for posting in here.
    If someone never posts their own criticisms of the ST, they are not using the thread for it's established purpose.


    3. Do not engage bashing, report it. That doesn't mean report every post that you don't like.

    4. Do not insult the Filmmakers or studios. Again, criticism, not bashing.

    5. These rules will be updated as you guys try to find ways around them.

    Don't make us destroy you!

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019
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  2. La Calavera

    La Calavera Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2015
    Thank you :p

    I will start with some of my main issues with the ST overall:

    1. Lack of planning of the Sequel Trilogy. I don’t think TLJ flows organically after TFA, as some of the character arcs in TFA feel not only repeated in TLJ, but the mystery boxes and set ups in TFA get a very anticlimactic resolution or are just thrown away without any answer (Snoke).

    2. I am not pleased with the story arc progression for Finn, Poe and Rey. They were dynamic and interesting characters to me in TFA, but I feel less invested in them after TLJ. Rey specially, went from from mysterious badass (albeit a little shallow) to... someone who cries over mass-murdering "Ben" not running away with her? Eh, not my cup of tea.

    3. I don’t think the story given to Luke made justice to his character and only diminished his character evolution in the OT.

    4. The overall “resetting” of the OT made the stories came before feel not mattering all that much, as not only the Empire is back but the Rebellion is also back (even if they go by different names)

    5. I really don’t like the space battles as presented in TFA and TLJ. Space battle spectacle and all its technicalities in SW is a big deal for me, so yeah, this upsets me.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2018
  3. PymParticles

    PymParticles Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2014
    As someone who loves both films, more world building would have been appreciated, for the sole sake of clearly establishing the context of the dynamic that exists between the Republic, Resistance, and First Order. As it stands, the context we're given is serviceable but murky, and that's not really something you want unless you're intentionally trying to obfuscate what the status quo is, which I don't believe was their intent. I just want to note that I usually consider there to be a difference between more world building and better world building, but in this case its so scant I think they're easily one and the same.

    I also think romance is missing from the trilogy. I think it has plenty of capital-R Romance, but no little-r romance. I don't want Rey to have a love interest, but when Han and Leia's reunion amounts to a hug, that's a problem. As much as I love Finn and Rose as characters, and as much as I enjoy their dynamic, I do not remotely buy their kiss at the end of TLJ because no romantic or sexual tension existed between them in any way up to that point. Apart from really subdued moments like Jyn and Cassian staring at each other intensely before they blew up, or Rey and Kylo's finger touching, the Disney-era Star Wars films have been oddly sexless up until Solo. It may sound stupid, but romance and sexual tension are generally speaking important audience-pleasing components of rollicking good adventure stories, it's found in spades in the OT, and it's been missing almost entirely.

    This can't be helped by anyone, but Carrie Fisher's passing will have me endlessly wondering what could have been. Regardless of what Abrams comes up with for Episode IX, I doubt it will feel the same without Fisher's presence, and will likely lack some of the emotional impact the film would have otherwise had with her in it, and that's a shame. It's nobody's fault, but I think the trilogy will always feel slightly incomplete because of that.

    This last point is honestly pretty minor, but there's been some sloppy blocking in both films. For example, Chewie walking right past Leia in TFA, or the Praetorian Guard's blade being digitally removed behind Rey's back to rationalize him not stabbing her with it. Neither kills their respective film by any means, but the former is just an example of not thinking the staging of the scene completely through, and the latter is the same with a "fix it in post" solution, which is something that drives me crazy about modern filmmaking in general.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2018
  4. PendragonM

    PendragonM Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Thank you!

    Interestingly, great article on this just appeared - https://www.thewrap.com/solo-is-fai...ision-for-the-star-wars-franchise-commentary/
     
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  5. ewoksimon

    ewoksimon Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 26, 2009
    The largest overall issue for me with the sequel trilogy is that the galactic stakes are murky at best. What makes this conflict equally vital to the history of the galaxy as the Clone Wars and the Galactic Civil War?
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2018
  6. Gharlane

    Gharlane Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2000
    I think that is really because of the NuSW's allergy to the political aspects of the OT and the PT. So a lot of the necessary world building just wasn't present in these movies. Rather they copied the aesthetics and action, but didn't really jump on the bandwagon in fleshing out the politics of the trilogy. And as a result the worldbuilding is weak.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2018
  7. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel New Films Expert At Modding Casual star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    1. I haven't enjoyed the return to the OT dynamic, i.e. the return to the "David vs. Goliath/Rebels vs. Empire", and the new "new hope" that Rey represents. It works in films set during "The Dark Times", but the central conflict of the ST hasn't established an identity of it's own. The ST has a general feeling that little has moved on, due to the return of so many elements to previous defaults.

    2. The backstories of the OT3 are much more tragic than I would like. Everyone of them lived long enough to see everything they fought for fall apart, default to the OT situation, and then they died. Not even family connections survived. Everyone is estranged. Again, I believe this was a consequence of the "reset" decision.

    3. I dislike the compressed timeline, because it causes issues with the development of the character arcs. Whether it's Rey mastering the Force at a highly accelerated rate (without any training), or Finn taking two whole movies just to decide to join the Rebels, which everyone knew he was going to do anyway. A time jump between films could have helped solve those issues.

    4. I dislike the way learning about the Force is being presented. It's too "God, take the wheel" instead of power being earned by discipline, hard work, and gaining knowledge. And, it's way too fast. I know not everyone has this issue, and I respect that, but it's seriously hurting my enjoyment of the Force story.

    5. With the exception of Jakku, the world building/scale has been subpar compared to the Anthologies. The galaxy feels smaller and emptier in the ST.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2018
  8. TheCloneWarsForever

    TheCloneWarsForever Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2018
    The main protagonist of the ST is an energy field. Jedi are manufactured and auto-leveled when the Force wants them to be rather than ordinary people rising to heroism through their own inner strength and conviction.

    Victories "earned" by downloading Force powers rather than the protagonist learning to trust herself and overcome her inner fears. The coming of age arcs that were always the emotional core of the franchise has been abandoned in favor of a video game mechanic.

    Finn - an interesting and fresh character concept that was wantonly squandered as comic relief/zero-to-hero that goes through the same arc twice.

    Passing a reboot as a sequel. Which is dishonest and contemptuous of the audience. To make matters worse, it succeeds as neither:

    It's a bad sequel. The premise makes the OT pointless. The exact same conflict recycled in a new era. This story does not progress the numbered saga at all.

    It's a bad reboot. It lovingly recreates the iconography (Rebels, Empire, stormtroopers, X-Wings, Tie's, Death Stars, Star Destroyers, Emperor) and shamelessly rips off of entire scenes from the original but fails utterly in capturing the storytelling foundation that gave the original scenes their emotional weight.

    Cynical exploitation of the OT characters to sell tickets. Their defining victories had been told 30 years ago and now, as if to rub it in, their former character growths are rolled back, hard-earned lessons forgotten and they're turned into grotesque caricatures of themselves.

    Scriptwriting designed to click checkboxes and create cinematic "tentpole" moments rather than organically follow characters with believable motivations making believable decisions. Characters turn into paragons or idiots depending on which tentpole needs to be satisfied next.

    Appalling lack of creativity and worldbuilding, especially galling as this has been a defining cornerstone of Star Wars. Another desert planet, another ice planet, another Death Star... it's numbing even to try to list them all.

    Takes away any reason to care about the struggles and victories of the characters since it's all a never ending cycle anyway. This one is arguably an indictment of Disney's business plan to flood the franchise with movies rather than the ST alone. But the ST gives us a good look at the consequences of that strategy.
     
  9. LadySithLord

    LadySithLord Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2015
    Thank you for opening this thread!!
     
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  10. Cave of Erised

    Cave of Erised Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    May 3, 2018
    The ST is mainly why I am here (a new Star Wars fan), but nothing is perfect or without flaw:

    Rey Random works well for me, but the placement of the “reveal” in the second act is awkward since I feel like it’s not a true reveal (it’s like asking what is in the box and then showing nothing). While I myself didn’t think she was a Skywalker/Solo, I see why so many did. I think she could have had a similar powerful moment in TFA in recognizing her parents weren’t coming back. What was the reason to delay it? What has it added to the overall experience of the saga? In the OT, the reveal gives dramatic gravitas to the moment AND for the rewatch; you lose the surprise but gain dramatic irony when you watch Luke unknowingly interact with Vader. With Rey, you don’t have that element. This complaint may seem like a minor thing but timing is important.

    I’m mixed on the romance aspect (since I like both Reylo and Finnrey and I feel that we got elements each in TLJ and TFA respectively). I like romance and feel it has its place no matter how cliched. Due to changing societal attitudes, non-platonic romance has become more of a put down than a category and I partially blame the ST’s lack of overt romance on this; like they are trying to sneak it in. Thus, there is also confusion for me; is it there or not? Finn has that classic bestie-to-boyfriend element, but am I reading too far? He clearly liked her but was it just a crush now that he has Rose? Is Ren supposed to be some flawed amalgamation of the bad boy/beast/Mr Darcy/ Rochester /whatever “dark” character? Or am I reading too much into his facial expressions and that is a closed chapter (why have bothered with the hand touch in that case)? Now with the comics, is Poe next up? If he is, why did they wait so long to get started (timing issue again)? And now it’s getting way too crowded with “suitors” without anything solid; Rey already has a few Mary Sue elements without making every young, handsome man in the trilogy be attracted to her. There is being subtle and then there is being vague; I feel like ST often does the latter. Almost like they want the romance to be a surprise or guessing game like her parentage.
     
  11. Jozgar

    Jozgar Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 2015
    1. Character development has been uneven, and I think this is largely due to a lack of planning. Some character arcs, so far, have been much stronger than others. Kylo Ren, Rey, Leia, and Luke have all have had highly engaging personal stories. Finn, Poe, Rose, and Han have all been more hit-or-miss: some things work, some things fall flat.
    2. The worldbuilding has been too vague for general audiences who aren't knee-deep in lore like us nerds. My dad, who loves Star Wars but only watches the movies, has questions like "What is the First Order? Are they in charge? Why is Leia still leading rebels? How does this 'Republic' fit into things?" This is mainly TFA's fault; TLJ did some things to rectify this, but simply didn't have the time necessary to fix it outright.
    3. Too much humor sometimes. I know having plenty of jokes is just a quality of current blockbuster films, but it can get really distracting.

      Fortunately, I think the former two can both be at least somewhat fixed in Episode IX, provided the correct writing decisions are made.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2018
  12. Blobofat

    Blobofat Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Dec 15, 2000
    No cliffhanger at the end of TLJ. You've got to have one in the middle of an old school saturday matinee Flash Gordon inspired saga, Rian!
     
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  13. w4tkn

    w4tkn Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 25, 2013
    This really is a serious miss step, backtrack 12 months ago and think of all of the YouTube videos discussing theories, I don't see nearly any of that anymore. The Saga could end now and it would be fair enough, what else is there is resolve? When Disney announced new movies and a new trilogy, I was beside myself, now I am just anticipating the spin off movies because what they heck is the story they are trying to tell? We have one movie left in the saga and I dont know what the point is. They could have solved this in my view by having Snoke be Plagueis.
     
  14. Axrendale

    Axrendale Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 4, 2017
    The great original sin which has (I believe) irreparably sabotaged the "new era" Star Wars, was the failure by the creatives to think through the narrative implications of forcing the franchise into the much-decried "soft reboot".

    A sequel to Return of the Jedi was always going to be made or broken by how it chose to answer these key questions: How is Luke going to restore the Jedi? How is the Rebel Alliance cum New Republic going to fill the power vacuum created in the galaxy by the fall of the Empire? What is happening with the next generation of the extended Skywalker family? The problem with the answers that the Sequel Trilogy provides is not just that myself and a lot of other fans find them to be incredibly disappointing, but that it cripples the potential for spinning the sort of Star Wars stories people want out of the basic narrative settings.

    I don't think it's going too far out on a limb to suggest that when people think of Star Wars, they want Jedi (because lightsabers and force powers are awesome) and they want epic conflict. Even if you hire writers for the new films that are far more talented than J.J. Abrams and Rian Johnson, there's only so much you can squeeze past insisting on a population of active force-users that can be counted with the fingers of one hand, and a war so lop-sided in its power dynamics that it becomes ridiculous.

    Put another way, the Sequel Trilogy represents a gigantic missed opportunity to bring back two of the most attractive elements of the Prequel era: lots and lots of fully-fledged Jedi, and peer-power warfare - but without the suffocating preordained sense of doom hanging over everything.
     
  15. Palp_Faction

    Palp_Faction Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2002
    When the ST was announced, the potential storylines that this franchise could have gone done were endless - and yet they went for a soft reboot instead and the result is something that mimics SW rather than is SW.

    That aside, the other failure is the lack of character motivation. In ANH Luke stated that he wanted to become a Jedi like his father before him. It was crystal clear. Now we have Rey - she wants to....what? Be a Jedi? Nope. Defeat the First Order? Not a primary motivation. It's all very murky. And what are Kyo Ren's motivations? Kill the past! Why? No idea. So there's little anticipation for IX as we are 2/3rds of the way through the story and we still have no idea what the story is about.
     
  16. 1984Phins

    1984Phins Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Everyone has great points so far.

    I think the original sin, so to speak, is a cynical misreading of the fan base by Disney.

    They thought Star Wars could only be Empire vs Rebels. Disney simply didn’t trust its audience enough.

    It’s why they recreated A New Hope when making Force Awakens. It’s why the anthology films are centered around the era of the Empire. It’s why they think a Boba Fett movie is a guaranteed blockbuster: he’s so associated with that era.

    Notice the lack of stories circa EP 1-3 or between EP 6 and 7.

    It’s a shame. When 7-9 was announced, we are excited about new adventures with the characters we loved. Disney thought we wanted another Death Star.
     
  17. Axrendale

    Axrendale Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 4, 2017
    The fact that every single one of the Anthology movies that has been made, is being made, will be made, or is rumoured to made, are all based in the OT era is telling to me. They just don't feel confident enough in the era defined by the ST to hang an entire movie on it.

    The irony is that the split focus is damaging both parts of the saga. The refusal to provide additional fleshing out to the ST era is a contributing factor to how lifeless those films feel, even as they steadily drain the enthusiasm one can muster for an OT era that is being rendered increasingly bleak with the benefit of hindsight.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2018
  18. Tyrian

    Tyrian Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2000
    I'd sum up my "ST criticism" by linking the thread I started regarding lack of cohesion in the ST:
    http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...n-structure-of-the-st-its-pros-cons.50047664/

    The polite TLDR Criticism Summary: The biggest problem with the Sequel Trilogy right now is a lack of cohesion, stemming from the 'blank slate' attitude and design each film is being created with, with respect to its predecessor

    The impolite TLDR Criticism Summary: TLJ came along and narratively pissed all over TFA, then stuck its head in the sand and gave the middle finger to Ep IX, who doesnt have a hook left to grab on to, if its life depended on it.

    I think 'the original sin' (since that seems to be a popular phrase here so far!), is Kathleen Kennedy didn't treat the trilogy as an intimate series of 3 connected films, from the earliest planning stages. But rather, just 3 films she was making.

    Because, how the hell can you suitably accomplish an intimate series of 3 connected films - if you employ a 'blank slate' for each film? Are we getting successive directors to throw narrative darts at the wall and hoping they.. somehow.. line up nicely? Kathleen Kennedy should have been the one to stress these points to her directors - before the first movie was made and before each director was hired. Lay the law down. Clearly she didnt, because Rian repeatedly said he was given a blank slate and essentially had a narrative blank cheque to do... whatever the hell he wanted. And he did. And look what happened when he did...
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2018
  19. Hopeless

    Hopeless Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2006
    For me TFA was the first movie where I could point out the mistakes, that's something Man of Steel, BvS, Star Trek I and Into Darkness never managed.
    Solo feels like its a step in the right direction but the real problem is that Solo wasn't the problem TLJ was!

    I wonder what if they replaced TLJ with Solo using the excuse of needing more time for changes to cope with the death of Carrie Fisher I doubt people would have complained after all would you?

    For me the main problem with TFA is that rather than having Han smuggling Rathtars instead have him smuggling stuff for the Resistance which is in keeping with the fact as far as we know the First Order kidnapped and brainwashed his son and they seriously think he goes back to smuggling and not do anything about it?!

    Then there's that flying in at lightspeed rubbish, just have Finn salvage a Friend or Foe Transmitter off one of the crashed First Order Troop Transporters and use that to con their way past that shield after all why lower your shield if its advanced enough to tell who is and isn't a part of the First Order but that doesn't prevent a way to subvert that process and its more believeable that they get past that shield before it realises the deception and disable the FoF Transmitter thereby explaining why the Falcon crashlands.

    If you want Kylo to be sympathetic then demonstrate it we already know the First Order brainwashes their recruits why wouldn't Kylo be the same?

    So he legitimately is listening to his father but Snoke takes control forcing him to kill Han who understands what's really going on and that drives Ben into a suicidal rage which is why he confronts Finn and Rey coerced by Snoke whose interested enough to try and corrupt Rey into replacing Kylo as his apprentice.

    Now for TLJ
    First off make it clear that the destruction of Hosnian Prime allowed Snoke's Loyalist Senators to usurp power literally allowing the First Order to move in unopposed before anyone realises their treachery.
    THAT explains why they're in charge with no need for revealing an absurd fleet of ships if they've already able to locate and neutralise that fleet because their allies tagged them so there's no escape for them.

    Make Holdo a New Republic Admiral so there's a reason for the distrust not contrive something that really shouldn't happen considering just how desperate things have become!

    Have Luke be the reason Leia survives being spaced after all she's reaching out why not show its Luke she's reaching out to and he's helping her back inside that ship?!

    We've been waiting for 30+ years for them why not use them for that very purpose instead of some romantic subplot that needs to be developed not shoved in because of some people forgetting the events of the previous movie!

    Holdo asks Finn for help, have Paige, Rose & co be part of a specforce unit not sacrificed when you can use them to help the ST by giving them people they can relate to rather than demean the cast from the previous movie by largely ignoring them!

    Snoke wants to capture Finn to draw Rey out before Luke finishes her training yes use TESB as a callback for precisely that reason!

    Getting jailed is now used to escape a First Order trap as the rest of the team is caught but Finn & Rose get jailed forcing BB-8 to rescue them as seen in the movie!

    They meet DJ who agrees to help them, handing Finn over for the reward so he can sneak Rose & BB-8 aboard undetected, this way he gets paid by both sides which is something that's supported by his personal code seriously make use of him he's a great actor and well worth keeping around!

    Finn is tortured to draw Rey out now this is important reveal Rey has already been trained so rather than that ridiculous downloading rubbish she was raised by a Jedi Survivor on Jakku explaining her skills and why she wanted to go back so badly until Finn fulfilled whatever mind whammie made her want to go back!

    Luke warns her its a trap but she goes ahead being dropped off on that world with all the rain so Kylo can turn up to rescue her as per her force vision.
    Yes use that vision after all its so people have a reason to go back and watch TFA again!

    Now when he's returned to the cells where the other members of the specforce team are EXCEPT for the traitor whose responsible for tagging the bridge and almost killing Leia we have Captain Phasma turn up and it appears she wants to finish off Finn BUT instead she wants their help!

    Reveal Rey is Phasma's niece left on Jakku to prevent Snoke getting his hands on her, make it clear that until he was able to bring Kylo back with him Snoke has been gradually turning Phasma into a chrome plated version of Darth Vader so you get some serious reveal about her that supports her actions during TFA she helped them because she helped free Rey and wanted them to get her off Starkiller Base which they couldn't do as long as those shields remain up!!!

    So its not Kylo & Rey vs those guards its Phasma, Hux, Finn, Kylo & Rey vs those guards but only after ANAKIN SKYWALKER's FORCE GHOST personally activates his lightsaber to kill Snoke before throwing it to Rey with neither of them aware he's there so they think the other was responsible!!!

    Can you imagine the reaction in the audience had THAT been the case?!!!

    Snoke's dead, Holdo having realised just how badly she'd been fooled sacrifices herself and the Raddus in an insane act of revenge that only succeeds because Rose & BB-8 had disable the Supremacy's shields.

    Rather than that idiotic slow chase instead have them jumping to escape with the FO Fleet following them but taking time to do so, time the Resistance uses to allow the untagged ships to escape as they continue following Holdo's remaining ships now gradually left on remote control or skeleton crewed to avoid alerting the First Order of the ruse.

    Kylo ascends the throne and is confronted by Snoke's superiors the Council of Inquisitors yes use them after all Vader himself helped train them and they have good reason to hold him in awe explaining why Snoke wanted to create his own Vader!

    The climax of the movie reveal that Kylo is actually the reborn Emperor who survived the end of ROTJ by possessing Leia's unborn child with Luke unaware because he wasn't present when it occurred and Leia according to Bloodlines always felt something dark but untrained as she was she remained unaware but Ben was born suffering from amnesia completely unaware of his true nature... until he sat on the throne which allowed him to regain his true memories albeit still conflicted due to Snoke's attempts to brainwash him that allow the Ben side of his personality to continue existing.

    A reborn empire, a reborn Emperor and a returning Luke Skywalker to help finish Rey's training along with an academy that still exists making it clear the title of the movie was from the First Order's point of view NOT everybody else!!!

    Sorry there's just so many ways this movie should have been better but its not the only one with faults.

    Now we wait to find out what will happen next, December 2019 I believe?

    Well if they postpone the novelisation for 3 months after the movie's release we will have our answer won't we?!
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2018
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  20. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel New Films Expert At Modding Casual star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Yes, this has been bugging me since I first saw TFA. Why is Rey getting involved? Especially considering she's so against leaving Jakku. She's still never expressed an interest in becoming a jedi. Why does she care about the conflict? This could have been solved by saying that the First Order controlled Jakku, and she'd been serving them as an indentured servant her whole life. It would give her a stake in things. And the mystery box of Kylo's fall is equally frustrating. Why are they doing the things that they are doing? Seems a simple enough question.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2018
  21. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel New Films Expert At Modding Casual star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    We're not interested in the impolite version, and the above is a good example of the direction this thread is NOT going to take.
     
  22. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    I love all of your points and you expressed them so well. The disappointing thing to me about it being a bad reboot and a bad sequel is I was always looking forward to what happened next, after the Empire fell and the Sith were defeated. This galaxy is rich enough and popular enough to move the story forward.

    They could still have had a Snoke-type villain (though not with an Empire duplicate inexplicable fleet) that was an old dark sider that hid or reigned in the unknown regions and then ventured out due to the power vacuum of the fall of the Empire. He could have stayed away before due to the strength of the New Republic and the Jedi and then later the Empire. Meanwhile, the New Republic would have been weak. Organized crime would have been even stronger than it was under the Empire. That would be a great setting to have an adventure of a young Everyman (everywoman) finding her inner hero and uniting the galaxy against crime and evil, with the guidance of the previous heroes of the gffa and the help of some friends.

    I liked TFA because it brought back that old SW feeling with new characters that I liked, but it falls more and more in my esteem as time passes, especially since TLJ. I think TLJ made the problems started in TFA worse, but it did start with TFA. One example of TFA not being quite as bad was the FO at the end should have been where the rebels were at the end of ANH. In TLJ, the FO should have been weaker than the Resistance, floundering, especially after the loss of SKB. The galaxy should have rallied around the Resistance to take out these genocidal invaders. It would have at least been an inverse on the dynamics of the OT. In the story they presented, the reboot makes no logical sense, so it adds to the frustration of it. It makes it come off cynical, like they thought even if it makes no sense, the audience wouldn’t accept a different story in the gffa.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2018
  23. La Calavera

    La Calavera Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2015
    I think because Rey is just following Luke’s story beats, we’re supposed to assume she has the same motivations as him and is ruled by the same wishes. [face_dunno]

    Also with agree with the criticism about the way the Force is being handled in the ST, which is another reason why I feel less invested in these characters. I liked when the Force was about training your mind and body to be able to use that energy field as a power, and the dangers that came with it (the seduction of the darkside, wanting more power, etc).

    I don’t like that the ST makes it look like the Force just creates already propped up vessels to counterbalance darksiders as if they don’t have a choice in this matter, nor that Everything Is Easy Rey doesn’t need to struggle or learn to get anything done. With TLJ removing the only villain that could pose some challenge to her (Snoke) I find it hard care about Rey’s future Force encounters with a new Supreme Leader she already bested…twice.

    The ST does make the Force feel more like a glorified superpower (you’re born with it I guess, no need for hardwork to accomplish anything!) than ever, and by doing so it eliminates the few influences Star Wars had taken from Asian storytelling models. The "student needs to seek out a master, learn from their wisdom and experience, train hard and grow beyond them", is very much a typical hero’s journey from the East, which was unique to an American franchise like Star Wars. Now it feels SW is being distilled to a very basic self indulgent American hero formula, in which the main character is just awesome and gets all the powers they need by virtue of being the protagonist hero, and doesn’t really need any help or teaching. They now just automatically grow beyond their failure masters who never even taught them anything of value.
     
  24. Gharlane

    Gharlane Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2000
    The Hollywood system where the director is auteur and venerates a movie as the vision of that one person certainly did no favors when they needed the movies to be more interconnected and story driven.

    With the PT/OT they at least had George Lucas to oversee the story. There doesn't seem to be anyone here now post-Disney to enforce some sort of editorial control of the story.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2018
  25. StarWarsFan91

    StarWarsFan91 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2008
    I know I’m just repeating what has been already said, but some of my biggest gripes with the ST is no NJO and a New Republic that is inificent (allows itself to be weakened military wise, etc).

    It really hurts the legacy of the Alliance to Restore the Republic with what happened. Disney could still have new Xwings and other visual similarities to the OT while still maintaining a New Republic Military vs the First Order. You could have the NR hurt badly while still not falling down into extreme underdog status that happened to the Resistence.

    Of course also getting Jedi that didn’t have Order 66 and the years of Jedi Purge as their future would have been nice. As someone who read books about Luke’s EU Acadamy, I was looking forward to getting to see at least a small band of a new generation of Jedi. Now with Luke gone, it’s going to be a while before we ever see a Jedi duo of master and apprentice post ST.

    Thankfully with the Old Republic eras just waiting to be explored, Disney can still give us a generation of Jedi and the growth/training that comes with it through seeing young students become Jedi. A generation that has a future. With an Old Republic that while will fall eventually for the PT Republic to arise, has far more years of existence and success against its villains then the New Republic ever had.
     
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