ST ST Criticism Discussion Thread

As long as we so live, so does the New Republic.
Like Gar Stazi from the Legacy comics.

 

Perhaps, but with the mention of Kylo taking some of the students in TLJ their is a implication the KoR are force users.


Of course a force user doesn’t need a lightsaber. Ben could have been the most powerful student (why he is master of them) and sole student who built a lightsaber. Luke’s academy maybe didn’t have a tradition of bulding sabers when students were quite young.

With a mixture of melee weapons, blasters, grenades, it would be interesting to see the force used to improve the skill and devastation these weapons can push out. I wouldn’t mind seeing one KoR come across across an old Jedi saber, but I prefer they mostly stick to the weapons they were using in the TFA flashback.

 

Yeah I brought that up in the old sanctuary thread a couple of times at least. The script goes back and forth between the two appellations instead of settling on one from the outset like it can't make its mind up.

But ultimately they really shoehorned that one in just to copy/paste the conflict from the OT all over again. At least with TFA it had the veneer of being different or a tad more sophisticated with the FO being this underdog bad guy non-governmental outside force rising up against the Republic while the Republic does nothing but clandestinely support this other military force. TLJ dispenses with this entirely, it's just Empire vs. Rebels again.

 

Another flaw was not enough Paige Tico. One of the few moments that there were real feels for a new character. Now that is someone who should be a hidden Jedi student of Luke's. Great character sadly we didn't seen enough of.

Less Kanji club, more Han/Leia/Luke reuniting and their offspring/the Skywalker legacy. More exposition of galactic status quo and explanation of what happened to everyone (the Empire, the Jedi) after ROTJ. Less throwing random characters who are instant gods into our face, and more logical storytelling with characters that have actual motivations to be involved in the major geopolitical story that the sequels are meant to be.

The more I hear about Hamil saying Lucas had a story, and the Whills etc, the more I want to see that.

Less lense flare, and Maz union problems, and more actual storytelling, world building, more characters who are Jedi. This is meant to be the era of new Jedi!

 

Calling them "The Rebellion" just kind of solidifies that this is just the OT conflict all over again.

 

There really wasn’t enough to decide she was a “great character “ but I think a scene between her and Rose would have added some great depth to Rose’s character. That’s just yet another example of how writing good relationships between characters wasn’t Rians priority.

 

The shot seemed like a rare beautiful scene with feeling. Almost akin to the Trench Run moment of Luke in ANH, or even Leia firing at an escaping Boba Fett. I think the Williams music adds weight to the scene.

As for Jedi, it was more hope than anything. I mean they obviously haven't even contemplated that which is disappointing. But I thought the necklace, and the music hinted that. That's just my hope. Shame it didn't happen.

I personally like Paige's character. I actually thought the actress did a great job. If anything I found her far more relatable than Rey. Would have liked Paige to have been a Jedi which I thought the necklace being shown, the John Williams epic music, and the fact that she was initially reaching for the controller to deploy the payload was about. Of course, none of that potential was used, nor have we seen any hidden Jedi so far. My personal Star Wars sequels though, I would have used the same cast and done that instead. From Paige, to Rose, to Rey, to Finn, to Poe, they all would have been talented based on prior training.

Indeed. But of course this is apparently an original conflict cough. It is a shame we don't really see any backstory for how any of this happens or of any of the characters.

 

MOD EDIT: Nope.

 

Which makes no sense because the FO is so far from being the Empire it's a joke.

 

Well I didn't say that it was done WELL, just that that's what they're going for.

 

I probably should have emoticon'd that post to indicate I wasn't being wholly serious.

For myself, I can't say that another team-up or redemptive angle really works for me right now, nor do I have much confidence in follow-through - it absolutely ought to happen, but after the mess that is TFA-TLJ.....

They are? TLJ did one hell of a job in showing them as more than human then given the sheer amount of aggro they gave Ren and Rey! Jango's likely looking on from the afterlife going "damn, why couldn't I have had all those weapons?"

Yes, but there was a good amount of groundwork for that done by the first two films - which never went as far with Loki as the ST has done with with Kylo. (I also think Hiddleston plays it far better, but it can also be said he's getting better material.)

 

MOD EDIT: This has nothing to do with the topic of this thread and also contains disallowed words.

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Jahns actually identifies a critical problem in the ST.

One thing that Lucas better understood was that it wasn't just the military force that made the Empire terrifying, it was the uncaring machine of its bureaucracy.

Like all hierarchies it's the smallest, most inhuman cog in the wheel that's important, not just the screaming speech makers at the top.

Compare the horror of life as a Handsmaid in Gilead compared to anything we've seen in the ST. It's the rules, the order, the laws, that are terrifying. Not just the violence.

In the ST there's a weird disconnect where it almost feels like people can happily get on with their lives and ignore those in charge. This is the relativism problem espoused by DJ.

But it's a common theme in all the new films.

What did Jyn say, "It's not so bad. Just don't look up".

If they're aiming for totalitarianism then there needs to be a driving ethos that the FO stands for. That's what the protagonists should be struggling against. But there really isn't one.

Again, this is the fault of the lack of world building.

I always thought slavery could work, as this seems so endemic in the Galaxy. If the FO or Empire were driving that, it would make sense. However even the Jedi could care less, as seen in the PT where indifference to child slavery abounded.

 

This.

Also Sheev's theme playing over Rey's torture. Why?!

 

Really? O___o

 

Good post. It’s almost like if they wanted a smaller group to rise of the ashes that were scary but not quite large enough to totally rule the entire galaxy yet then they should have focused film 1 (TFA) on maybe one or two worlds that were being taken over and keep things a little more bound to the planets.

The challenge is that this is Star Wars greatest hits for new audiences so the favorite moments of Star Wars take precedent over a more realistic examination of a totalitarian takeover.

Rogue One gave us that glimpse at Jedha and seeing the recruitment center for Solo was cool and a little like Empire Day in Rebels with the propaganda. I liked those moments for what you’re referring to but in the ST it ansolutely feels more like a mini Empire that’s still taking over. We’ve seen them using terrifying weapons to destroy systems and also seen that they have a lot of ships but we haven’t really seen what a siege on the public looks like. The scene on Jakku is the closest we’ve had of that kind of experience. We’ve heard they steal kids and turn them into slave troopers but they haven’t even shown us the cruelty of that. Even seeing a facility with kids arriving and others in cages being trained would have added to the amoral totalitarian world building more.

TV series tend to do this type of thing better because they have the time but I do think the ST could have done this better.

 

The Knights of Ren would've been MUCH better red shirt villains in TLJ. Kylo could've sat out while he healed from his TFA injuries, then the KoR could fight against Rey and Luke and present a more unique challenge. Once they're defeated (with one or two survivors, maybe), then the third movie could have Rey and Kylo square off against one another for the second and final time, with the nice breather in-between movies to make their second confrontation all the more exciting. What new powers and skills would Kylo have learned after his defeat in TFA? Could Rey match him? Since it's the third movie, it would've been exciting. Now, I just don't care about yet another Kylo and Rey confrontation. It's too stale.

ESB and and ROTJ avoided this because Luke got thoroughly trounced during the first duel and his second duel with Vader, after a whole movie of watching him be far more skilled and capable than before. Add in the whole parental reveal and Palpatine grinning in the corner and the fight had far more stakes than before. TFA and TLJ threw all their cards on the table to the point where the third confrontation--no matter who you throw into the mix--just won't feel fresh or exciting enough to keep my attention

 

Speaking otherwise of the Knights of Ren, I honestly don't think they're salvageable unless the marketing/design/storyboard group works overtime to deliver unique, interesting villains. Star Wars tends to have a hit-or-miss relationship with their villainous redshirts, but when they deliver cool ones, hoo-boy, do they deliver!

We're all huge SW fans, do I need to recount how insanely cool the Maul vs. Obi-Wan Kenobi and Qui-Gon Jinn battle was in TPM? In the months leading up to the movie, we got a name--Darth Maul! Cool! The first new Sith in 15 years! And when they unveiled his face--oh my God, he looks like a demon! A demon with a double-bladed lightsaber! Now that is how you create a memorable villain, people. And, of course, the lightsaber fight scene is counted as one of the greatest, if not the greatest fight scene in the entire film saga, in terms of sheer power and skill. It doesn't matter that he died after one fight--we got a great buildup and fight scene with him to cement him in our minds.

How can the Knights of Ren compare? Right after TFA came out, there was potential--we only saw a couple of shadowy folks standing around Kylo Ren, and only for a few seconds--but that didn't automatically discount them. They could've been the big bads of the next film. The seeds were there. Instead...barely a mention, if anything. Do they expect, after four years of pretty much nothing on these guys, that we'll care about them? Or want to see them fight? If Lucasfilms suddenly goes: "Oh ****, uh, here guys! Look at the Knights of Ren! So cool! Remember them, huh? Remember? They're just...so boss! So terrifying! Please buy their toys!" then you can bet that'll kill any hype that I had left for them. It would be best if they just died off in-between movies at this point.

 

I think the Knights are their best hope at increased antagonism and some redemption angle. Either because one schemes & becomes the new bad by overthrowing Ben. Or, by them turning on their master and becoming redeemed.

There are many things the ST set up that point to a possible return.

1) J.J. is back and he was asked about them a lot and said he wanted a standalone for them (but may not get one unless they’re established more).

2) The compressed timeline actually helps their departure massively. It would be very hard to explain them returning had their been a huge time gap between TFA & TLJ but there wasn’t. They could easily have been out on some 5 day mission and returned just after TLJ ended. Snoke referred to them in the present tense when he spoke of them. He never said “former” or “when you were.” He announced like he was the leader of their group and now he’s leader of all groups. It’s as easy as announcing them in all caps as retuned during the openly scroll and featuring them in trailers as very powerful.

3) Since he was their master before they’ll have more insight into how him being in charge of the entire FO maybe isn’t such a good idea. Something Hux obviously agrees with too. Easy allies between them and Hux.

4) TLJ killed the guard and Snoke & antagonistic threats and difficultly tend to increase, not decrease. Kylo Ren will need a guard better than the last one. They’ll need more Force users in this post-Infinity war world of blockbuster filmmaking. Not less.

5) Toys & merch.

6) Luke setup they were likely former students in TLJ.

 

The FO is a joke in the films. Bumbling comedy english wallies. The Empire was genuinely threatening.