ST ST Criticism Discussion Thread

Only problem is the repetition. Of the 400 pages here I bet you could open any one of them & find virtually the same complaints about Luke. Often by the same people. A thread like this would be great if there were a checklist that's continually updated. Once an issue has been sufficiently covered it's ticked off & can't be dredged up again, unless a new & original angle is introduced. If you want to read about a previously covered issue, the checklist will refer you to the section to do so. Naturally that won't happen, so around & around in circles we go.

 

I agree with you:

Who is Mr Hildago? Why should I have to read his tweets to, “get” TLJ?

Shouldn’t the spin-off, ancillary stuff feed off or support the film and not the other way around? Says to me a film is a failure, if that’s what the audience has to do AFTER they have seen it.


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I haven’t noticed any of his tweets being particularly important to the movie. What you’re describing does have precedent in SW though. The Sifo-Dyas resolution springs to mind, where Lucas said he’d include it in the next movie but instead put it into TCW.

 

I like The Last Jedi, but to me the first Jedi temple dealio wasn't just a missed opportunity, the fact Luke went there to (1.) hide from Snoke and (2.) reject The Force meant it was a real bum character note too.
Because (1.) if you're trying to hide from powerful Force users the last place you want to be is somewhere which has a very strong Force signature, and (2.) if your wish is to reject The Force and forget the past the last place you want to be is somewhere which has a very strong Force signature and which can only serve to remind you of The Force.
So the only way it makes sense for Luke to be there from a character standpoint (if we are to respect his strategic intelligence) is if he's actively trying to find some way to save Ben Solo.

 

I personally think that Rian Johnson would have been a complete failure in creating any Star Wars movie, because he has already failed miserably once, in a manner that showed he really does not understand Star Wars at all. Having the burden of making a movie with beloved iconic characters is definitely a hard task, but if one thinks the solution is to create a plot that no fan expects, that is called bad decision making and film making. I wish that was just a hypothesis, but Rian Johnson has admitted to that in many of his interviews, with "subverting expectations" being his trademark phrase at this point. A phrase that will not be forgotten anytime soon.

Therefore, I honestly hope that he does not get to have any future involvement in the Star Wars franchise. Especially if he wants to touch an untainted era of Star Wars lore. Getting the reigns from the start is potentially a nightmare, especially after having observed his behavior after the backlash. Now he appears to have added vengeance to his motivation against the "toxic fan boys", and if his motivation for creating art was misplaced before TLJ, now it has gone off the grid.

The same can be said for people who appear to have an excuse for everything that went wrong in TLJ. Unfortunately, there is a huge amount of people that were very displeased with TLJ, and 415 pages of mostly well constructed arguments are proof for that. I am not a determined complainer, yet there is absolutely no way that I will a positive view on a tremendous amount of TLJ elements, simply because I have analyzed them again and again, and I find no redeeming quality in this movie. Not even Luke Skywalker with a green lightsaber and pure honest glowing radiant love for this father, could bring this movie back from the dark side.

Yes, Luke Skywalker should have been removed from everyone after the end of TFA, and it made perfect sense for him to not be willing INITIALLY to train Rey. Throwing his lightsaber over his shoulder was cheap value shock though. A scene that should not have existed ever. It made me feel that it underestimated my intelligence. Not wanting to even discuss anything with Rey, was nonsensical also. Giving in completely and quitting everything that had mattered to him in his whole life because of ONE incident (this is how it's presented in the movie) also made zero sense to me, and many others (the majority in here for sure). So while it might have made sense for you, that doesn't mean that everyone has to agree, and that whoever does not agree is a determined complainer. In these last few pages all I read is arguments about how someone who didn't like how RJ portrayed Luke, is wrong. And I don't think that's the case.

Star Wars is extremely popular, therefore the thousands of topics in these forums will naturally include some topics that have been mentioned before. If what you propose were to happen, then people that would want to talk about this subject, would not have the opportunity anymore. If people can still talk about ANH in 2018 and there is a topic for that movie, then people should be able to talk about a movie that came out last year. There are people that are now seeing SW for the first time. What is more logical? For a person that has been tired of reading the same conversations in a single thread to stop watching that thread, or the removal of option from everyone else to talk about the topic in question?

 

I haven’t read any of his tweets. But the inference is that he explains what’s missing from the film and I think that shouldn’t be necessary. The film should stand up on its own and support/be the bedrock of any spin off material, for those that want delve deeper


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Yes supplemental materials should be just that, supplemental. They should fill in certain interesting details, but not be essential to understanding major or basic plot details/context/character motivations from the films. That, should be explained in the films since those are all that the vast majority of the audience will see anyway.

So saying, "well that's explained in a TV show, or a book, or a comic, etc" is the height of creative laziness. No, if it's relevant to the films, it should be explained in the films, simple as that imo. People shouldn't HAVE to do extra homework essentially to understand this stuff.

 

I know that perhaps it should just be assumed, but they key missing phrase here is that the movie was a failure for you. It sure wasn't a failure for a lot of other fans, as well as 90% of critics etc. The reality is that every SW movie since the OT has been divisive, with a sizeable chunk of fandom flat-out hating each one. I don't expect that will ever change. So you & some others were on the wrong side of this movie. It didn't work for you. Perhaps you'll like the next one while I'll hate that film, & our positions we'll be reversed. It's just the way it goes now. Nothing to get all that bothered about - IMO.

Fair points. Can't argue with them.

 

This sums up pretty well what I think is the fundamental problem with the philosophy behind TLJ.

The analogy to restaurants was particularly apt I think.

 

It's obvious that there are issues (from significant to details) wity TLJ that can't be hand-waved away and Disney knows it - even if some enjoyed that chaos for whatever reason. Legit sources like THR wouldn't be talking about "course correction" if that wasn't the case.

I have a feeling that the saga will end with JJ doing to TLJ the same thing some fans did with TPM in the Machete Order because the story will be irrelevant.

 

Well, it can’t be deemed entirely irrelevant since Kylo has replaced Snoke as Supreme Leader, Finn & Rose have developed a significant bond and Luke has passed away, but everything else can be safely ignored.

 

Luke is on the nudist planet while Rose dies between VIII & XI.
Fixed another two issues

 

I 100% believe the critics got it wrong, probably because they’re largely not really SW fans in the first place. It reminds me of The Big Lebowski - that movie got bad reviews. The critics were wrong. They didn’t get it. TLJ isn’t “divisive” like ESB was. That is and was a total rewriting of history myth.

TLJ is a bad movie that got good reviews imo because of subversion and shock value. I’m gonna give one big example to make my point. The scene of Rey waking up in Snoke’s throne room and escaping, leaving Kylo safe and sound, appears to have never been written. It’s not even a deleted scene. That is totally inexcusable from a writing standpoint for a number of reasons, but I’ll highlight two.

First, Rey is our protagonist. Her motivations, her opinions, on what to do with sleeping beauty is central to the story. We have no idea the how or the why which is, again, inexcusable. Reylo fans can think she’s in love just as easily as average movie goers (and critics) don’t even notice because they’re not thinking too deeply as the movie zips by. People like me can assume I guess that she just couldn’t get to him because of debris, therefore there was no existential crisis for our protagonist. I guess.

Second, her inexplicable, dumb escape. This one did get noticed, maybe not by the critics but by average movie goers. How’d she get out of the room? Oh RJ handwaved it with a line a lot of people missed about an escape pod. Except the film built up to a feeling of claustrophobia in Snoke’s throne room, making Rey appear trapped and helpless, isolated with only the long elevator ride available for escape. And then poof! Never mind, that was apparently never a thing with no foreshadowing.

These mistakes are amateur mistakes. They don’t add to the quality of the film. They can’t be narratively justified, or at least I’ve never seen any good explanation. And there are so many things like that in this movie.

 

I wanted to post something to the Rian explains video above. I did not do it because I did not want to look like a troll.

It's simple: There are way too many "Rian explains" videos with way too many simple and insufficient explanations. A good movie does not need such explanations. It gets questions like: "What did you feel when filming this...." and not "How does this and that work out?"

 

Yeah the fact that Rian and others need to do so much "clarifying" and "explaining" of what his intentions were, shows how flawed the writing in this movie really is.

 

So...That's interesting.
http://www.digitalspy.com/movies/st...s-sequel-trilogy-miss-george-lucas-last-jedi/

 

Like I said before, the near perfect SW team imo would be George as the grand ideas man overseeing the mythology and worldbuilding and just being imaginative in-general, but leaving the nitty gritty details of actually directing the film and writing the script/dialogue to others (JJ and Kasdan come to mind in that regard right away).

Seems like Pegg believes this as well.

"Pegg revealed that Lucas was "candid" with him, saying that the man behind the beloved space opera advised: "Don't be making the same film that you made thirty years ago thirty years from now."

Also if Lucas did say this, then he was 100% right about that imo.

 

Changing his tune, it seems like

 

I'd say that the problem of ST is not that the grand ideas man is not GL, but rather that there is no grand ideas man at all.

 

TLJ had a lot of people stepping back and re-evaluating their Star Wars fandom.

This. And not just the ST but all of Star Wars. No direction. Can anyone say what Rian's trilogy or Benioff and Weiss stories are going to be about and how they fit? Of course not because there was no overarching plan besides "More Star Wars". Some may Stan for it no matter what but there are too many other options to keep all fandom with that approach - and Disney is seeing that.

 

Unfortunately, with this particular film, it IS something to get bothered about. TLJ can’t just be handwaved away by those who didn’t like it. TLJ isn’t a stand-alone film that we can just shrug our shoulders over and hope that we like the next Star Wars film better. TLJ also negatively impacted the past OT films that I loved; negatively impacts the next film and other SW films and books set in the future; and negatively impacts any books or TV shows set between RotJ and TFA. TLJ has made everything else toxic. That’s what makes this film such a terrible SW film, in my opinion. That’s why it IS something to be greatly bothered about, especially for those of us who have been fans of SW for two, three, or even four decades.

TLJ makes the OT films pointless and irrelevant and completely negates all accomplishments of Luke, Leia, and Han. What was the point and where is the victory in Luke being the catalyst that brought his father back to the Light and helped bring about the fall of the emperor and his empire when Luke becomes the catalyst that starts his nephew on his darkside path, and leads to the rise and growth of the First Order and Kylo as the new supreme leader, the new emperor? He just substituted the first order and Kylo for the empire and Vader.

TLJ has solidified that Kylo is the only next generation skywalker character. This means that no matter what happens in episode ix, the skywalker saga can have no happy ending for the skywalkers. The skywalker family becomes a total curse upon the galaxy. Anakin skywalker became a villain who helped destroy the Jedi and is responsible for countless deaths and destruction. Han and leia gave birth to the new Darth Vader. Luke was partly responsible for kylo’s fall and the fall of six other students; and then did nothing for six years to fix his mistakes, running off like a coward and allowing snoke and Kylo and the first order to become powerful and terrorize the galaxy. Kylo himself became a major villain; a mass murderer. The whole skywalker family caused the galaxy unimaginable pain and suffering. And now, Rey random will fix the skywalkers’ mistakes. That is NOT satisfying. Because of TLJ, the galaxy is actually in worse shape going into episode ix than it was before the skywalker saga began in ANH. All that is left are 20 resistance fighters and one ship. They have no bases; no assault weapons; no trained Jedi; and no Jedi masters. Good luck to JJ Abrams in trying to come up with a logical, satisfying ending to this mess!

It also impacts the future in that TLJ leaves us with no Jedi trained by a master. All that we have going forward is force-user rey, who was never taught, guided, or mentored as a Jedi. Instead, she just magically became an instant Jedi by downloading Jedi and force skills from Kylo, completely disregarding and changing 41 years of Star Wars history in an unbelievable, unsatisfying, and stupid way. Why was this not done in a thousand generations of Jedi knights , if this was possible? It makes being a Jedi less interesting, special, less mystical, and less worthy of respect, because it isn’t earned. It’s just given. This will impact all Jedi in the future negatively. Rey wasn’t trained, so she can never pass on the training, wisdom, and guidance that she never got from a Jedi master herself.

All stories about Luke, Han, and leia between trilogies are also negatively impacted. I now no longer want to read about any of their adventures between RotJ and TLJ, because I know that ultimately, nothing they do matters anymore. It will all turn to dust because of Kylo. Why read about or watch a tv series about Luke and his Jedi students, when we know that none of them will ever become Jedi and help the galaxy? That all of them will be killed or go dark? What’s the point in getting invested in them when we know how it all ends; that they have no future?

So, yes, TLJ IS something to get bothered about, because it’s not just the film itself that is terrible. It also ruins past and future Star Wars stories. That’s why so many of us are so profoundly disappointed and annoyed.

 

Yeah basically. You don't like RO or Solo, they can be ignored easily enough without changing anything.

You CANNOT separate TLJ from what came before it because it seems to go out of it's way to rewrite/retcon that stuff, and change fundamental rules about the universe with seemingly no greater thought behind it.

And worse still, it negatively impacts potential future projects as well.