ST ST Criticism Discussion Thread

I can't speak for others, but for me personally, the PT movies are great movies with a few flaws, while the ST movies are a whole different beast. And I most definitely do not consider the amount of flaws in the PT and the ST the same. Not even close. TFA is a good movie that actually has very few flaws for me, but it rehashes so much, that it ends up being unoriginal. Even that way, I am ok with it as part of the saga. Sincerely, TLJ does not even feel part of the saga to me.

I watched it again over two nights about a week ago (impossible to watch it in one session) on Netflix (3rd viewing). I also watched SOLO last night in its entirety. And confirmed what I already knew. That every other SW movie gets better after every viewing.... while TLJ gets worse. I was feeling numb and thought it was just ok after the first viewing in the theater.... I found so many things that were so annoying after the second viewing.... and since a few days ago, it's really almost impossible for me to spot the positives of that movie.

So to me the ST doesn't even compare to the PT. The way I have these movies in my head these days is that there are A) the 6 classic movies B) the stand alones which were great additions and C) The sequels that I just don't even care about anymore and wish they were completely different.

 

A lot of this has to do with movie magic too. Every movie has flaws. But when a movie's magic works on us, we tend to overlook these things. There are minor flaws in the OT, but damnit I don't care about them. There are probably bigger ones in the PT, but I can still enjoy some of it. When the magic hit you right the way, you're able to enjoy them nonetheless. There's probably even a tipping point, where flaws will break the spell so to speak. And then when a movie's magic doesn't work on you, at all, the flaws become more apparent and critical. It's like a spell that backfires.

That's what the ST is to me. I can recognize mistakes in other SW movies, but here, something feels very off about the essential magic of it all. The flaws are glaring. I'm almost more annoyed that it doesn't capture me the same way that the PT and OT do. Which becomes another fault entirely.

 

The FO has more than one "Space Hitler". Hux is somewhat of a Hitler too. In the previous movie he did a dead-on impression of the Führer in fact, at a Nazi style rally. What's more it was he who just ordered the destruction of the fleeing Resistance ships. If Kylo is out of action what are the odds that Hux isn't going to fulfill his own orders & his own obsession & destroy the rest of the "loathsome Resistance"? Approximately zero.

Rey doesn't get a free hit at capturing Kylo. It's incredibly risky & unlikely to succeed. He's not badly injured, he could wake at any second, he could call for back-up or summon one of the many weapons that are strewn around the floor, or 20 other problems could arise. If it does happen to work then he's tied up in the back of the Falcon - but whoever is ordering the deaths of the Resistance ships is still alive & giving those kinds of nasty orders. So same result. If Rey is caught in this risky endeavor then you get the attack on Crait but she's not manning the Falcon's guns & she's also not there to get the survivors out of the mine. No more Resistance. Seems like a poor strategy compared to seizing her one opportunity to get to Snoke's ship & help her friends.

The Resistance, though small in number & poorly resourced just attacked & destroyed SKB. I don't think it's bad strategy for the FO to wipe them out. They're also the types that seek to rule with fear. That involves making examples of groups who attack them by killing them all. The Empire had the same mindset RE the Rebellion. If instead their message was "If you attack us we'll kill most of you" it would lose some of its sting.

 

So don't kill Space Hitler No. 1 if you can't simultaneously kill Space Hitler No. 2? Sounds like legit logic.

And after about 25 minutes into TLJ, the Resistance is no longer capable of doing any damage to the FO, SKB or not. Meanwhile, SKB already achieved its goal - it took out the Hosnian System. It's not only bad strategy to not focus on their invasion in the immediate aftermath of Hosnian Prime. It's idiotic. It's nonsensical. It's imo the dumbest military premise I have seen in one of these movies.

As far as ruling with fear, you know how you achieve that? You invade people's homes, their towns, their planets, their systems. You don't chase strangers into the middle of nowhere and get lost.

 

I definitely think the OT is completely unhelpful to point to generally and changes no minds. I do like to point to the PT because, to me, it shows of someone is willing to overlook things because of GL or not.

 

And how is that a bad thing? Yeah, I definitely overlook Jar Jar Binks if it means I get to see an epic lightsaber scene between Obi-Wan Kenobi, Qui-Gon Jinn and Darth Maul. And I overlook a couple of less than perfect acting performances by Christensen and Portman during a 2 minute love scene, if it means I get to FEEL things for 2.5 hours during the entirety of ROTS. GL was able to give us that. If RJ had also been able to give us that, with a concise story, then no one would care about an alien cow. Now it just adds poor taste to an already problematic film for many of us.

 

Well obviously I disagree. While I like the PT I do have a good laugh at some of its poorer dramatic elements and execution. There are areas where the PT is superior and areas where the ST has been superior.

 

I agree. Of course I know both trilogies have flaws, the PT more than the OT in my mind. But not one other film, including TFA, made me feel despairing of the franchise. Nothing destroyed the magic of the Saga for me, nothing even came close. Until TLJ.

To me, good movies only work with an emotional investment. Easily said, if I hate what I see, I will not like the movie. It`s not about the minutiae of TLJ. I emotionally reject its characters, themes and messages for the most part.

Now unrelated to that, I am capable of also discerning if I liked an actor`s performance. Or if I at least enjoyed technical aspects of the movie like cinematography, atmosphere, editing or score.

So for example, I loathe Luke Skywalker in TLJ, cringe nearly every second that character is onscreen because I hate the material written for him. I still think it is Mark Hamill`s best performance in the movies. Now, that doesn`t mean I subscribe to the theory that he couldn`t or wouldn`t have given a great performance with material I liked. That would be a ridiculous assumption.

I hate Kylo Ren but I generally think Adam Driver gave a good performance. Daisy Ridley was more uneven than in TFA and she visibly faltered a couple of times. Oscar Isaac did what he could with the material, he is talented and experienced enough that his natural charisma shines through which saves it somewhat. John Boyage got a rather thankless role and couldn`t show much here, I thought.

Now cinematograpy? I honestly didn`t find any shots or scenes breathtaking. Atmosphere? I wanted the first Jedi Temple to be magical and mystical, take Jeddha and multiply it by a thousand and not just a few stone structures on an Irish island. Score? Like I said, not RJ`s fault really but even John Williams let me down in this movie and honestly the ST so far. I prefer Giachino`s Rogue One score.

Ìf I had gotten a great story I liked with characters I loved, none of the technical aspects would really matter to me. I love, loved Infinity War but for example cinematography in Marvel movies is somewhat generic. It is pretty and completely serviceable for the movie but I`m not saying I`d be handing out awards for it.

If I had loved the story of TLJ, the only of the technical aspects I would feel truly let down by would be the music. Music is part and parcel of creating a favourable emotional response from me - for example the Order 66 scene in itself is fine but not great but with the music? take me now, movie, I`m yours - and to have that lacking would feel like a detraction. It is one of the aspects that truly bothered me in TFA and I enjoyed that film.

 

I agree 100%. You can list movies that came out since 1977 and there have been many that have been rebooted. So far, forty-one years have passed and the OT is still reboot proof. It's probably still several decades away before someone could make the case that it can be done and done well. The OT isn't just about the acting or the attention to detail, because it isn't perfect in that sense. But GL found perfection in a way I'm not able to articulate between the years 1977 and 1983. As a kid growing up during that time, I guess it's the closest I'll get to an addict chasing that initial perfect high.

 

I've been calling for the end of the Skywalkers in Star Wars since I registered here, I do want to see the stories move on from them.

I do agree that the last Skywalker should not have been a villain, or such a crappy character. I thought the line would just fade, that's all.

I don't care about the Skywalker "legacy" and never have. I don't care about the Skywalker name. I care about Luke and Leia, because I like them, not because they're the children of Anakin Skywalker.

What is a legacy if you no longer care about anyone involved in it? A legacy stops the moment you stop caring about the people. The legacy ends if the people with the name are no longer actually carrying on what you liked about the family to begin with. If Luke and Leia themselves don't live on in the personality/character of their descendants, if part of them isn't passed on, if they aren't honored by their descendants, then the legacy dies, regardless of how many generations continue on after Luke and Leia. Kylo doesn't honor his mother and his father. There's nothing of Luke in him. The legacy is already dead. They killed it in TFA.

There is no happy ending here. They've painted themselves into a corner. If they redeem Kylo, then Rey reached out to her stalker/kidnapper/rapist and redeemed him. That's a horrible story. If they don't, then lol @ the end of ROTJ and Han (and basically Luke) died reaching out to his monster of a son and that sacrifice was a complete waste.

 

With regards to cinematography after seein Roger Deakins work his magic in Blade Runner nothing was going to compare to it in 2017. If you want to see a true cinematic masterpiece watch Blade Runner 2049 TLJ isn't even in the same city as Blade Runner 2049 when it comes to cinematography. Honestly IMO 2049 may be the most beautifully filmed movie ever it's truly astounding. So in short I agree while the movie looked good I don't find that it really achieved anything in Cinematography compared to any other Hollywood Blockbuster.

 

I would have agreed with you about Star Wars being reboot proof till TLJ but the recent handling of the franchise I think makes it ripe for a reboot now unfortunately. I don't think anyone would go see a reboot mind you just that if IX is bad you know that someone is going to say why don't we reboot Star Wars with a new younger cooler Luke Skywalker because that's what Hollywood loves to do.

 

Why would they reboot a franchise which has so many other characters and eras they can pivot towards? Hard reboots are only ever necessary when your franchise centres around one character that needs a clean slate: Spiderman, James Bond, the original Star Trek crew. They'll only ever reboot if the other non-OT spin-offs fail, which doesn't appear to be the case assuming they are good.

 

If IX doesn't stick the landing there will be major changes for Lucasfilm. They've already shelved the anthology movies. If IX fails all bets are off.

And what Lucasfilm is messing up is they believe the world is more important than the characters. That the Star Wars universe is the hook when the characters truly are.

The rest of Disney gets that.

 

I'd definitely put Blade Runner 2049 ahead of TLJ in cinematography. I'd put RO ahead of it as well. TFA had better shot action than TLJ.

The upcoming movie Mortal Engines (trailer, extended look) looks like concept art a lot of the time - they've put a lot of artist featurettes on their Youtube channel, probably because it's directed by someone (Christian Rivers) heavily involved in the CGI VFX of Peter Jackson's other movies (I'm a bit leery on the dialogue, hoping that they purposefully chose the most cliche lines for the marketing but we'll see.)

 

Disney won’t allow IX to fail. They’ll spend a fortune in marketing to ensure that it doesn’t.

 

Yes I think it's obvious if a massive tentpole film fails such as IX there will be changes, especially after Solo. I highly doubt it'd be a reboot though.

 

I think Solo was the stalking horse for the reboot, myself. They had a new Han and Lando, just give them a few years to get older, then some Disney kids as Luke and Leia, age up Ewan, and away you go.

oops

 

That is a great point against a reboot.

Are they really going to finish IX and have no face of the franchise to go forward with? I thought it would be Rey and Finn but they fumbled that with TLJ.

The Lucasfilm SW films are perfect examples of why no plan is never a good idea.

They was riding high after TFA. Rogue One was a surprise hit that no one wanted. They should have had anthology films building their universe instead of going back to Lucas.

ST focused on Rey's journey. Keep RO to buy time. Ep VIII to follow the actual plan from TFA. Instead of Solo made Luke the next anthology movie explaining what happened after ROTJ and how Kylo came to be. Ep IX to finalize torch passing to Rey (Skywalker). And next anthology movies based on Finn and Poe.

But to do that they needed a better plan than slapping a Star Wars story on everything.

 

They don't need to keep making episodic movies though. they have already got a dozen other star wars projects to be made.

Perhaps after the sequel trilogy they will stop with the episodic movies? maybe they won't wanna turn these episodic movies into an ongoing series of movies that that just keep coming every 2 year for the foreseen future? we have the OT, the PT and the ST... maybe thats all you need for the episodes.

 

If they reboot the OT I think it'd be the death knell for the franchise. It'd essentially be an acknolwgement that the franchise is no bigger than the Big 3 and their stories.

 

There is no way they are rebooting.