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ST ST Criticism Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Pro Scoundrel , Jun 1, 2018.

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  1. Obironsolo

    Obironsolo Force Ghost star 4

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    Feb 7, 2005
    I thought you meant that we had gotten one video from someone at ScreenRant, but that theoretically we might get other videos from people at ScreenRant with different opinions, and thus to take the opinion of one person as being accurate or true was unfair because other opinions may very well exist that would disagree.
     
  2. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    No, I meant that the idea that ScreenRant is now changing perspectives may be wrong. They have multiple journalists. It doesn't mean they are now all in the 'we dislike TLJ camp'. I'm not really sure what you mean about it being 'unfair' to take something as accurate or true due to multiple perspectives...
     
  3. Harbour

    Harbour Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 15, 2015
    Kylo Ren+Rey = psychopath tortured girl, wounded her friend, killed her father figure, then the girl turned on her teacher to save said psychopath with the power of love three days later

    Also that gif above - Rey looking at Kylo with puppy eyes. Thats kinda disgusting. Im not against some good traditional romance, but damn, that dude literally mindraped you and hurt/killed your closest people in your life. None of Luke backstory can justify that quick change of attitude towards Kylo Ren.

    That romance concept is kinda disturbing.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2019
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  4. TheDutchman

    TheDutchman Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 10, 2015
    This is one of the questions that i would love to see someone lob to RJ:

    How did you think it was a good idea to show her going to him after he tortured her, almost killed a friend and actually did kill another new friend just DAYS before? How can we buy that from any normal person, much less the protagonist in a heroic myth story?

    Along with asking JJ why they never shot a scene with Hamill, Fisher and Ford together.

    I want to know their reasoning.....but I'm sure we'd get convoluted deflecting answers like "going backwards to go forwards" or R2D2 downloaded the history of everything from the original Death Star or some other such nonsense.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2019
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  5. Darth Smurf

    Darth Smurf Small, but Lethal star 6

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    Dec 22, 2015
    His answer: "It's all in the movie"
     
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  6. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 11, 2014
    Pretty much, he clearly doesn't think that there's ANYTHING that he could have maybe done better, or clarified more, in the film.

    Even JJ owns up to a few missteps in TFA.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2019
  7. Nipuhanipera

    Nipuhanipera Force Ghost star 5

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    May 25, 2014
    Which is why box office is the only true indicator.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2019
  8. Master Jedi Fixxxer

    Master Jedi Fixxxer Force Ghost star 5

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    Oct 20, 2018
    I passionately disagree. Box office to me is the last thing that would convince me one way or the other about any movie. It only shows how many people were convinced to go see a movie, it does not show how many people liked the movie, nor does it show if the movie is good, whatever correlation might exist between the last two.

    Avatar is the movie that has made the most money ever. I would hardly call it a masterpiece. It's alright. The Fast and Furious franchise has 4 entries in the top 100. Now, I enjoy most of these films, but I would hardly call them "great films". All the Pirates Of The Caribbean and all the Transformers movies are also in similar situations. I could go on forever. Besides, usually in a franchise with sequels, box office is partially (and it plays a huge part in much opinion) indicative of how many people liked the previous movie, rather than the movie that they are watching.

    The box office for any Star Wars movie only shows to me personally a small part of the truth. I think other metrics are much better to draw conclusions, such as interest generated, raw audience scores on websites, and even polls of smaller scale on specific forums and social media about specific franchises/movies. People can claim all they want that if you did not like TLJ you are in the vocal minority, but that doesn't make it true. Though I think that was the narrative up to a few months ago. By now, fewer and fewer people claim that.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2019
  9. Paro

    Paro Jedi Knight star 1

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    Dec 11, 2017
    I honestly think they just wanted to focus on the newer characters, specifically Rey and Kylo. That's why i believe RJ tried to force a possibility of Rey and Kylo relationship, or that the original 3 never reunited. Add that to fact that each director tells his own story, and that's why we got such messy new characters, or some plain stupids storylines such as snoke, or Finn in the last movie.
     
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  10. powerfulforce

    powerfulforce Jedi Grand Master star 3

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    Mar 16, 2005
    The reason they never had the trio reunite is pretty much the same reason why the creators of A:TLA didn’t have the surviving members of Team Avatar reunite in the sequel series. They will never outright say it, but the reason is that they didn’t want the originals to upstage the new characters. That tells me that if they have to do that, then their new characters aren’t compelling enough.
     
  11. starfish

    starfish Chosen One star 5

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    Oct 9, 2003
    The Last Airbender and Legend of Korra are better than the ST.

    And I say that as someone who likes the ST.
     
  12. La Calavera

    La Calavera Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2015
    Well, box office analysis is generally twofold: the opening weekend numbers, which indicate how many were interested in the movie (how effective was the marketing, and in the case of sequels, how many were excited to see it after the last movie) and the long run grossing/the multiplier, which indicate how successful the actual movie was with the audience and had them returning for more (in which the word of mouth is an important parameter).

    Now lately, as the big studio companies keep pushing for bigger OW numbers and less running time in the theaters by promoting the need to see the movie before you want to get spoiled by the internet, the multiplier becomes less and less relevant than what it used to be.

    However, the OW numbers are still as relevant, because they still show the amount of hype/interest in the movie. If a large portion of the audience has become really disinterested in SW, then Episode 9 should have significantly lower OW grossing numbers than TLJ. But while I do believe that the hardcore fandom is really divided on TLJ and a good chunk of it is probably not going to watch Ep9 on opening weekend (if ever), we still don’t exactly know how much of the casual fandom/general audience can compensate for that and how much interested they still are in the last sequel. If the OW numbers for Ep9 reveal to be close to TLJ’s, then it would be easy to assume that the angered hardcore fandom has a minimal impact in Disney’s BO earnings.

    One thing that BO numbers never say is how good the movie is and the longevity of a movie’s popularity. Avatar is a good example of that. That movie was by all means a smashing success in its time, a lot of people seemed to have loved it. So much so, they saw it twice, three times, some even more. The word of mouth was crazy. It was promoted like an unforgettable 3D experience and in that regard, it delivered it. But damn, time didn’t show any mercy to it. Now people remember it as more of an example of terrible, cliched storytelling and undeserving blockbuster monster, than as a classic, and seldom are those who have any nostalgic positive sentiment towards it.
     
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  13. Master Jedi Fixxxer

    Master Jedi Fixxxer Force Ghost star 5

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    Oct 20, 2018
    The real question about the OW numbers of IX is how high they could have gone if people had overwhelmingly liked TLJ though, and not how high they will actually reach in December. It will be promoted after all, as the last movie of a 9 part saga. A great trailer, a narrative that it's going to have many pleasant surprises, images of every Star Wars character that ever mattered to anyone (Luke, Leia, Lando, prequel stuff, sequel stuff), good marketing, and perhaps the lack of an antagonist movie during that time, might push IX to numbers even higher than TLJ.

    Can you imagine though what the numbers would have been if you had ALL of the above, plus the excitement of almost everyone who had watched TFA and TLJ, provided that they had been much more satisfied with the result? There is no way to calculate that number, since it is based on a hypothetical, but I feel that after TFA broke all these records, IX would have been pushed to even higher numbers in that case. Only if we could calculate these numbers, we could properly assess the "damage" that TLJ made (or did not make) in revenue.

    Fun fact (or is it?)
    This is how many times I have watched Star Wars in the movie theaters (the OT in the late 90s):
    ANH: 3
    ESB: 2
    ROTJ: 3
    TPM: 2
    AOTC: 3
    ROTS: 3
    TFA: 2
    TLJ: 1
    IX: 1 (it is already a given)

    I wish those 3 last numbers were higher. But they couldn't have been. The OT numbers would have been much higher if I hadn't watched these movies many times prior to their release in 1997.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2019
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  14. Nipuhanipera

    Nipuhanipera Force Ghost star 5

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    May 25, 2014
    I am as harsh on J.J as anyone, partly because of what you wrote and partly because even when he actually tries to tell a story (like Super 8) he fails. And even in Super 8 he has a mystery box that doesn't lead anywhere.
     
  15. TheDutchman

    TheDutchman Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 10, 2015
    I only saw that movie once. What mystery box is in that movie that doesn't pay off?
     
  16. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Perhaps the monster in that film?
     
  17. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    It’s probably more accurate to say that the anger against TLJ is still hot enough that “clickbait” articles and videos looking for views will target the haters instead of the fans at this point. One of the few things that I think can be said about these boards right now is that those angry at TLJ have shown a bit more stubbornness and endurance in repeating and strengthening their complaints. Creating content for that crowd is probably simply more profitable right now than it was a year ago. The numbers of fans and haters has probably not changed. It’s just that one faction is moderately more active right now, and therefore more easily exploited for economic purposes.

    Abrams has already given his reasons, as @powerfulforce hinted at: fear of the OT3, in particular Luke, overwhelming the new cast’s importance and audience focus. Abrams gave that specific reason for Luke being pushed to the very end of TFA without dialogue, and I think it’s as simple as that. His priorities put the “push” and “security” of the new characters over the potential of an OT3 reunion.

    TFA is very much trying to use the older characters to build up the new ones; regardless of your opinion of whether that was the right thing to do, that was the framework for a huge amount of its choices. Keeping the OT3 apart spun out from that when Abrams determined that he felt his characters would be overwhelmed with Luke present. If he didn’t think that, there’s probably a good chance we would have seen the reunion; he didn’t shy away from a brief Leia and Han reunion, after all.

    It’s a coldly calculated business-decisions more than a creative decision, at its core: labeling a combination of older assets as a liability to the marketability of newer assets.

    I’d still say it makes more sense than the manner and goal of pursuing romance for Kylo and Rey in such a short timeframe, though yeah, it’s not an impressive decisions in either case.

    To be fair, probably 99% of all current media content are inferior to ATLA, and 95% are probably inferior to LoK.

    I mean, I’m a Game of Thrones fan. I’d say Seasons 1-5 probably are better than ATLA, but there’s enough sloppiness in the last few seasons released of that show to maybe give ATLA an edge over it, once you account for the radically different demographics.
     
  18. TheDutchman

    TheDutchman Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 10, 2015
    Which is why the ST fails for me.......marketability over the story. It's the wrong priorities for my taste.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2019
  19. starfish

    starfish Chosen One star 5

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    Oct 9, 2003
    Ha, that’s probably true.

    As far as GoT, I’ve only ever seen a few episodes so I’m probably not being fair but honestly it was a bit violent for my taste. I’ll take Star Wars and the Airbender universe over that any day.
     
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  20. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    It also kind of plays a bit like a gamble that TLJ made more difficult for LFL: the “bet” was that by sacrificing the guaranteed but potentially finite appeal of an OT3 reunion, the eventual payoff on the ST3 would end up allowing a maximization of all 6 characters, in terms of creative appeal, marketability, and as a massive consumer product.

    It worked *for me* in TFA, because, I could focus on Finn and Rey and see how Han’s death was used to set up Kylo as the new main villain.

    It’s now been handicapped even further by TLJ draining then potential from the new characters while simulataneously aggravating the OT3 issue with its misuse of Luke.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2019
  21. PendragonM

    PendragonM Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Cold is definitely the right word. And frankly, based on the Leia and Han reunion we got, I'd rather he had left them all to die alone (they did in the end anyway). What a kick in the face to Han and Leia fans - sorry, they broke up AND had a dark lord for a son. No, we won't tell you when or why on screen, here's a selection of books and comics! Wait, why are you leaving?

    I really would love to know what in the Maker's name they were thinking. Where did they round up the focus groups, why did they do this idiocy? I mean, there's frankly not another word for having the main family that you've followed for 6 films end up with one moody villain who murders one of the most popular characters in the saga, his own father, and then leads to the death of the main hero. Then, for a lovely sideline, "romances" the female protagonist you're working so hard to sell as a new, progressive lead - but who instead becomes the maniac pixie girl with a lightsaber. For an encore, take the two other new characters people liked and treat them like crap too. Did anyone actually read this and think "yay, this is a great idea!" I just cannot fathom how anyone sat down, from a business perspective or a dramatic one, and decided all this. They've poisoned the money making OT with this followup, driven away older fans and younger ones who were excited by the new characters, when it would have cost them nothing to tell a story that honored the old and gave the main family in the saga a happy ending. Solo's box office woes are just the beginning.
     
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  22. powerfulforce

    powerfulforce Jedi Grand Master star 3

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    Mar 16, 2005
    I'll put A:TLA over many properties, but Legend of Korra is still hard for me to truly enjoy. I feel like it was too rushed and too many characters overall which made it difficult to connect. Don't get me started on the ending. As someone who is LGBT, I find that the ending does more damage than good. The relationship didn't come off organically, I'm supposed to buy into them being attracted to (which hadn't been alluded to) and loving each other after years apart and ONE letter sent to the other after YEARS of ignoring all letters from everyone? They were barely even friends and they gave too much agency to her ex, now if they gave many of his lines and scenes to Asami, then yeah I would've bought it more easily. But I digress.
     
  23. Solo88

    Solo88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 31, 2018
    and merchandise sales. Which, are currently in the toilet after TLJ and Solo.
     
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  24. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 10, 2011
    That's really cool. I never noticed that.

    Another cool thing is that you can see hints of Vader's later, more rigid fighting style within Anakin's:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  25. MagnarTheGreat

    MagnarTheGreat Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 21, 2016
    What Screenrant cares about is clicks.

    Right after the movie came out they put out this:

     
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