ST ST Criticism Discussion Thread

That's why there's a new story. Because a new character gets swept up into a larger tale. And the Millennium Falcon (and a fleeing storm-trooper) are the means by which she gets involved. I really don't understand what's so objectionable about this.

 

"The Phantom Menace" was Palpatine.

And BB-8 was the connecting tissue that brought Rey into the action. Not the Falcon.

 

Qui Gon finding Anakin is clearly the will of the force, as it involves a highly force sensitive Jedi being drawn towards the Chosen One.

How is that the same thing as the Millenium Falcon winding up five minutes from Rey's house?

 

And that's why it's a story worth telling. Prior to QuiGon and Padme showing up, it's quite possible that hundreds of other Jedi (or notable persons) had visited Tatooine and never happened upon the Chosen One. And so...the storyteller didn't tell the story of those Jedi that didn't find anyone special on Tatooine (because Jedi wandering around in the desert drinking blue smoothies isn't everyone's idea of an exciting tale...). But then QuiGon and Padme stumble upon the Chosen One, and the storyteller, oddly enough, decides to tell that story...

But for some reason, a certain segment of the fandom wishes this upon those storytellers who present us with these "coincidences":

But if Rey is not related to anyone famous, why is it a coincidence? She's just a random person. Who happens to be force sensitive. There may be millions of others like her across the galaxy. She was just lucky (or unlucky) enough to get swept up into the fight with the FO, and via the Falcon.

It would be far more of a coincidence if she was, say, related to Kylo or something. And that's why it's far more of a coincidence that R2 happens to stumble upon...Darth Vader's son.

 

"...and then he left me, who he barely even knows, to watch his ship! What did he think was going to happen?"
This sounds like someone making fun of the concept, but no, it's actually in the comic. ****
Democracy smothers itself in the crib to await fascism rolling back in, and characters who grew into good people are taken advantage of and left with nothing, ha ha, because being good is for losers, apparently.
The world is sad enough without this rubbish.

 

What else would I think you'd have meant? Zoroastrianism and Judaism are hardly obscure either.

This is completely depends if the Jedi chose to reveal this information to the public. You're also talking bout a length of time that is completely beyond our own species memory. There are so much information about the past of humanity that we simply don't have good information about.

Those storages could be fried by any number of disasters, not to mention if they aren't maintained they could be physically destroyed.

 

The Falcon coincidence does sort of seem weak at first glance because it just seems like a cheap way of getting the old ship back into the plot. It may not seem like the Force really needed the Falcon back in action, but that the writers did.

However, once we consider that Han picks up Rey because she's in the Falcon and also how the Falcon affects Luke and Kylo, there seems to be some possible Force motivation in play, and it doesn't just seem like a writer's lazy move.

 

She's a random person who happens to meet BB-8. That is the moment she is pulled into the story. It's no coincidence that Finn and Rey meet, because Finn was connected to Poe who told him about BB-8. None of that is coincidence. It's a logical through line.

The Falcon being there is a completely different thing. Now you have two seperate things, both related to the Resistance, that both happen to Rey in the same day.

You have no clue what your are talking about. I liked TFA. I've praised it a thousand times. In fact this Falcon coincidence is one of my only complaints. My dislike is for TLJ. Not sure why you would say I hate every single pixel of the sequels, but say whatever you need to say to argue your side.

 

If if I recall correctly, didn't you already say you gave up a while ago? False surrender is a crime under the laws of war, you know.

 

In TPM, Qui-Gon deciding against common sense and for no reason to bring a small kid to a warzone.
That Watto happens to be the only person with the parts for this ship and he happens to be immune to the mind trick and just happens to own the chosen one.

In ANH, had those Tuskens not been there, Luke would have grabbed R2, gone back home, been killed and the empire gets the droids. Bad guys win.
In ESB, Luke just happens to crash right by Yoda's house, the probe droid just happens to land near the rebel base.

Narrative convenience or coincidence/contrivance have been a staple of SW since the start and this is to me nowhere near the top of most egregious.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

Seriously, Gaston fits great. TLJ is like BATB if written from LeFou's perspective.

 

I don't think it's the same though.

I mean, I can see the Jedi themselves being needed to find the Chosen One and the Force making it that happen. It’s hard to imagine how Anakin, as a slave without freedom of movement and will, could place himself in a position to fulfill the prophecy without the Jedi’s direct involvement.

But in the ST? Why is the Falcon even required to be there? Without the Falcon, they could have just taken another ship – and one that was not being tracked by gangs – and just fly straight to the Resistance base because 1) they had the coordinates (BB-8) and b) Rey made it her mission to deliver the droid to its owners and she was not restricted in her freedom.

The Falcon is an unnecessary complication that diverted away from their original straightforward path just so they can meet Han Solo (and get him unnecessarily killed), and force some conflict in Takodana, that only happened because of Han Solo’s stupid decision making. Not to mention the reason why the Resistance base was discovered by the FO is because they boarded the Falcon. BB-8 was identified by the gangsters after the Falcon, and again identitied by FO spies in Takodona, ultimately resulting in the FO following a Resistence ship to the Resistance base. Remove the Falcon entirely from this mess and you would have a much cleaner path from Rey in Jakku to her place of belonging in the Resistance, and free of casualties.

So no, “because the Force” argument doesn’t really cut it in this case, as it looks like the Force is just adding unnecessary complications for what should have been a much simpler travel between Jakku and Resistance Base/Luke. The Falcon is a convoluted scheme to complicate things for drama and entertaining purposes (and nostalgic call backs), but its utterly superfluous addition is too illogical and derivative to excuse the faulty writing as “because the Force”.

 

Independent of when Lucas decided to make it happen, and because it does now happen chronologically, it’s closer to how the droid that childhood Anakin built (C3PO) finds itself repeatedly drawn into the adventures of the Skywalker family ever since. The Falcon is the ship version of that. However one wants to perceive these types of things... they’re not new to Star Wars is I think more the general point others were making.

 

Agreed.

This, and the arrogance of antagonists leading to convenient missteps and consistent underestimation of our heroes ability to find the openings that are available and escape or destroy them from a situation they themselves helped contribute toward.

With the exception of some EU content (in particular Thrawn), it’s almost never a battle of wits between our heroes and our villains but rather extreme overconfidence from the villains that the heroes won’t possibly be able to take advantage of the limited opening that is available... only for our heroes to do so.

Part of the Saturday morning serial roots I’d reckon.

 

The real mess is Han being right there where the Falcon is. Maz screaming “Han Solo” is responsible for her bar being destroyed. We won’t go into the character destruction of him not wanting to take the map but... you’re right. BB8 knows where the Resistance is, so why stop?

I always thought the Force/Yoda brought Luke down in the right place.

 

I don't mind the coincidental manner of the Falcon showing up. My bigger gripe is that the ship is "characterized" more like an amusement park attraction after Rey and Finn jump aboard and immediately recreate an OT greatest hits chase scene. Given that the overall world of the ST rarely feels like decades have passed since ROTJ, I think this might've been a perfect time for some subversion that could be inserted in a natural manner, with the Falcon being more like an actual piece of junk these days than a super ship. Instead we got those Frisbee-physics scenes on the Starkiller planet where the Falcon now seems even more indestructible.

 

I guess I can understand how people see no difference between the "coincidences" around the Anakin situation and the Falcon situation, but imo they are subtly but critically different.

With Anakin, and really throughout the PT, Qui-gon and other Jedi/Sith use the force to make correct decisions, and that is demonstrated on-screen. When they navigate the planet core, seemingly without a map, they aren't just closing their eyes, setting the transmission to nuetral and cranking up their favorite The Doors album to eleven. They are actively making decisions, and using the force to make correct ones. The same with Qui-gon when he goes to Watto's shop. He doesn't need to ask for directions because he just knows where to go. And to the point that about Anakin, we still don't know exactly what the implications are for him being The Chosen One. It's quite possible that anybody could be the chosen one, and it's just a matter of circumstances that line up which Qui-gon was observing.

But as to the Millennium Falcon, we know there is literally only one of them in existence, obviously. And we know, (or at least we thought we did) that The Force doesn't just grab inanimate objects and move them around like the hand Zues. Was Han Solo, and then every other bandit who had the Falcon, actively using The Force to make the correct decisions to drop it off conveniently nearby Rey, a person they presumably didn't even know to look for? And was Han just using The Force too when he found Rey and Finn outside Jakku? I can understand if fans don't see these critical details and think they're import, and that's fine, everybody gets to enjoy SW on their own terms. The problem is that JJ didn't understand them, or to paraphrase his own script, he didn't understand how The Force works. That's not a problem with a random fan, buts it's a huge problem if it's the director of the friggin movie.

Just as an addendum, in fairness to JJ, it's quite possible that Ep IX will come up with a load of explanations for all the coincidences around Jakku, so I'll withhold final judgment until then. Right now however, it doesn't make sense.

Lol, you're joking here, right?

 

I disagree with this, respectfully.

When Lucas puts something in the PT, he is establishing its origin, and actually making sense of things. The reason Threepio is in the fold is because he was originally built by Anakin. While we may view it as "coincidence" or convenient, in the story itself, it is his origin story, and it works to explain how he got into the story. There is a huge difference between coincidence vs being creative and establishing connections and origins. Watto owning Anakin, and also having the part, and also being force proof was perhaps convenient writing, but it's not a coincidence. I don't think it works backwards. It wasn't a coincidence that Luke met Han at the Cantina. That's simply a story beat. Based on the arguments above, you could say its a coincidence the son of Skywalker met the guy with the fastest ship. Everything would be coincidence in the end. There is no comparison between establishing back story, aka illustrating how things came to be, vs things that inexplicably occur after other events have been established.

I totally disagree. R2 was sent to find Obi Wan, who was watching over Luke from afar. The fact that he ran into Luke before finding Obi Wan was not that unlikely considering the location. It's not a cosmic coincidence. If two people who know each other are visiting the same city, it's no epic coincidence if they bump into each other.

On the other hand, one example of a bad coincidence in my mind would be Chewbacca being friends with Yoda. That struck me as not only convenient but also an unwelcome coincidence. That was not explaining anything. It was simply a way to put two characters together. But even that was still somewhat logical because there was a logical reason as to why they were in the same location.

 

Thank you for pointing this out, as it's hugely important. The various "coincidences" in the PT are all being influenced by a masterminded evil sorcerer who can SEE THE FUTURE. The ST is being influenced by commercial requirements that insist every single character and toy from the OT must be included on screen, rationality be damned. Not sure why it's so hard to see the difference.

 

The difference between Gaston and Kylo is that Gaston pretended (or maybe tried) to be decent; Kylo didn't even make the effort.