ST ST Criticism Discussion Thread

Nowhere in the PT is there any indication that Palpatine is creating the coincidences that occur. There’s a pretty big difference between foresight and that level of manipulation.

 

Confirmed. Palpatine, in a silly mood, directed Jar Jar to that pile of poo in the desert, and into the path of the eopie’s fart. It is written.

 

Actually, that’s precisely what is being suggested in the PT . . .

He is literally depicted as pulling strings behind the scenes. And he is literally said to be using divination to guide his decisions. And if it makes any difference, the nu EU is acknowledging this when they suggest that he was responsible for creating Anakin. You can say you don’t like it, or downplay its relevance, but you can’t say it doesn’t exist.

Is it a perfect explanation for all the PT’s “coincidences”? No, but it’s a layer of connective tissue that the PT enjoys which the ST simply does not, probably because Lucas was unusually thoughtful in deciding how he would tie the story together.

Ok, well I never suggested that, because Anakin's creating C-3PO is not a coincidence at all, it's just his origin story, but what ever. Don't worry, I get the message loud and clear, we're not being silly enough.

 

Indeed. The original story was called Adventures of Luke Starkiller as taken from the Journal of Coincidence, Saga I: The Star Wars.

 

You know what I used to have in my head canon arsenal back in 2005 about Chewie & Yoda?

That Chewie was the reason he and Han took the smuggling gig with Jabba, so that he could be close to Obi Wan as he babysat Luke.

Han, unknowingly, was along for the ride, whereas Chewie was always working in conjunction with the Jedi to be ready when it was time for Obi Wan or Yoda to rejoin the fight.

Ipso facto, presto change-o! That's why Chewie happened to be in the Cantina, whispering back and forth with Obi Wan. Obi Wan could've been like, "Keep it on the DL with your captain Chewbacca, but it's time - I'm with Anakin's son".

I mean...Obi Wan says matter of factly they'll find a pilot who can take them to Alderaan. How could he know that? Unless the rendezvous was agreed upon beforehand between a Kashykkian Clone War Vet and a Jedi General.

I had a lot of time on my hands to think these connections through back then.

That's how SW used to spark my imagination...now thanks to TLJ, it's dull as a butterknife.

 

Sadly, because of the poor story structure Palps is basically omniscient in addition to having telepathyand telepathic control a la Professor X. It was the only way to explain how he guided everything in his “plan.” This was most glaring in AOTC. He had Jango kill his subcontractor Zam with a Kyber dart bc he KNEW that Obi Wan would extract it from her neck, get some background info and head to Kamino (the ONLY place to buy Kyber darts in the universe). And that’s just one example of his godlike prescience.

And Snoke was pretty much the same way.

 

Well, that, and chest hair.

 

You consider this chain of events godlike prescience and a plan that could only come from an omniscient person?

I think that your example requires literally zero telepathic abilities. It could be one of many contingency plans, and if it had failed, Palpatine would have had another way to guide the Jedi to Kamino. In fact, if he were to convince the Jedi that an older Jedi Master had ordered the clones, it would have to seem plausible, therefore he couldn't just make it seem that someone gave them the directions to go to Kamino. They would need to figure it out on their own.

I always thought that perhaps it wasn't even the right time for the Jedi to discover the clones yet. It is nowhere seen in the movie that Palpatine orchestrated for them to show up there and then, when they did. Even Jango Fett is not yet expecting the Jedi to show up, and he is caught off guard. I think there's too much speculation about what exactly Palpatine had planned, and as someone else very well said here a few months ago, Palpatine was a master in adapting and creating new schemes and plans, when it was necessary. He wouldn't have trained two apprentices before getting Anakin to join him, and he would have done so many things in a very different way if he knew exactly what was going to happen in the future. He just read characters, he set events in motion, and then seized the opportunity whenever one appeared. Hardly omniscient, just exceedingly smart and cunning

That is correct. Also, the coincidences of the PT that have been mentioned in this topic are not that far-fetched. As you yourself said (and I have also said that in the past), the Jedi had been actively searching for Force sensitive kids across the galaxy. The fact that they discovered Anakin when he was 10 years old or so and not younger than that, negates all coincidence if anything. If Anakin had not been discovered by Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan, he might have been discovered by another Jedi. And then we would be watching a couple of other Jedi being responsible for him, and instead of these two Jedi, we would have others in the spotlight, because of Anakin. It wouldn't have changed the story. But this story needed to be how Obi-Wan and Anakin came across each other, so that's what the story shows us. I don't see what's the big deal.

The coincidences with Millenium Falcon are a whole different thing in my opinion. I am not bothered much by the fact that it happened to be the first ship they came across as they were trying to escape. I am a lot more bothered that Han Solo and Chewbacca found them shortly after, out of nowhere.

 

The idea that the Jedi live lives which are heavily influenced by the will of the Force does not account for the level cascading coincidences in the ST - TFA in particular - that occur outside of situations which any sort of Force medium is involved. Never mind the ridiculousness that is the idea of the Force "awakening". I suppose the Falcon is on Jakku b/c the Force is so adept at creating contrived scenarios to actualize its will, it can literally conjure them in its sleep. Really? Please.

Simply because an event appears to be coincidental does not make it such. Nor does the existence of the Force and its will preclude coincidences and/or fortuitous happenstances from occurring.

Qui Gon was destined to find Anakin; that is the will of the Force. The fact that Watto was Toydarian and therefore immune to mind tricks, is a simply a hurdle the Qui Gon must overcome.

The issue here is poor storytelling replacing excellent storytelling and outside influences affecting the development of in-universe events. If the primary objective - the quality upon which the status of success were predicated - were simply to tell a satisfying story as a followup to the original Star Wars trilogy, this conversation wouldn't be happening.

I am still holding out hope there is more to the first act of TFA than has yet been realized. As it stands now, however, I must concede that it all seems far too convenient to be simply written off as "well, that's Star Wars". If that is what Star Wars always had been, most of us wouldn't be here.

 

Believe Adventures is IDW, not Marvel, who have their own brand of art insanity.

For instance, the Empire now includes Klingons!

Quoting for no other reason than it's always good to see another Sisko fan.

 

At least you were creative and your head canon makes sense.......Back when I was like 9 or 10, I was convinced that Obi-Wan was secretly Luke and Leia's father. Why? Well, this was my incredibly flawed logic:

1. Padme seemed much more friendly to Obi-Wan compared to any other Jedi besides Anakin.

2. I had believed that the Outer Rim Sieges started over a year before ROTS, and that Anakin didn't come back from the Outer Rim Sieges until ROTS.

3. Obi-Wan was fighting in the Outer Rim Sieges too, but he came back to talk to the council about Maul.

4. Why wasn't Anakin confused as to how he was a father? Idk, maybe he thought Space Jesus births were normal for people or people involved with the Skywalkers, I guess

5. Obi-Wan did lie in A New Hope, but his "certain point of view" thing in Return of the Jedi was not a messed up thing; his father was dead in ROTJ, and he wanted Luke to have a realization about Obi-Wan being his father just like he did about Leia. Yoda sighed before saying "your father, he is" was because he didn't feel he was ready to tell Luke the actual truth, and reluctantly lied.

Obviously I don't believe in this theory at all anymore, and haven't since then.

 

I think it's worth remembering that the discovery of Anakin ties directly into the downfall of the Jedi. He wasn't discovered as an infant as most potential Jedi are. He's discovered when he's 9 years old, by which time he's formed emotional attachments, suffered hardships and developed a personal moral outlook on the universe. This is because he was born and raised outside the Republic at a time when the Jedi had become far too reliant on midichlorian tests. The point is, another Jedi wouldn't have found him. By relying on the Republic administering midichlorian tests to infants, the Jedi had essentially taken the quick and easy path to finding recruits, rather than going out into the galaxy themselves to search for potential Jedi.

Some people may call it coincidence that Qui-Gon found Anakin but I see it as a brilliantly subtle piece of storytelling that shows that there's something very wrong with the Jedi Order and their blind attachment to the Republic. This plays itself out in both Anakin's fall and the Jedi being manipulated into fighting a war that blinds them to the machinations of the Sith until it's too late.

In contrast, the coincidence of the Millennium Falcon being on Jakku was just idiotic. It was Abrams and Kasdan writing their script, giggling to themselves about how funny it would be if the heroes escaped on some discarded piece of junk that turned out to be the Falcon. As for Han and Chewie turning up, you know, I could buy that they had a tracker on the Falcon that only activated when the ship was powered up though why they didn't simply track the ship when it was first stolen is beyond me. What bugs me more is Han's surprise that it was on Jakku given that when he learns that, he's in or close to the Jakku system and that the First Order doesn't blast them out of the sky.

Seriously, from the time the Falcon leaves Jakku, the ship remains at sublight until it's caught by Han and his big ship. The Falcon doesn't actually enter hyperspace until it jumps directly from the hangar. Only minutes earlier, that ship was being chased by TIE Fighters which would have needed Star Destroyers to launch from and return to. So where were those Star Destroyers when Han showed up and when Han's business partners arrived to cause trouble? Are we meant to believe that the FO, following the destruction of their TIEs basically just shrugged their shoulders and jumped away?

 

oh man I seem to remember the Obi-Wan/Anakin/Padme love triangle speculation,

thank goodness Lucas didn't go that route.

On the whole will of the force and MF discussion, I don't think that using 'the will' trope harms the narrative of the story. Whether that's the force literally blowing a droids motivator to the MF literally being on Rey's doorstep. I can accept it from a story stand-point at least. SW is still, in essence, a space fairy tale. Things of a magical (or on the flip side of that, spiritual if you're that way inclined) nature happen all the times in these movies. Therefore it's a bit unfair in my mind to say what situation the will of the force is and isn't acceptable. Either it's acceptable in all instances no matter how contrived, or not at all.

 

Ironically, Leia takes far more after Anakin in terms of fiery temperament and focus IMO than the more even-tempered and forgiving Luke did. Which is one more reason that "see, TLJ shows Luke`s own Anakin story, ain`t that grand" falls so flat for me. That`s the cliché, shallow, simplistic reading of the material of "boy, Jedi takes after father while girl, politician takes after mother, and look, one is blond and blue-eyed and the other brown-haired and brown-eyed, aren`t we clever?"

Lucas didn`t really build his story on ultra-complex twists and turns but I think he inherently made it less THAT much on the nose. The OT story is enrichened with the PT by Anakin responding to Luke not solely because he is his child but even more so because he is Padme`s child. At least for me.

Heck, even Legends took some pains to portray the offspring as more than mini-me of the gender-appropriate parent.

Leia`s goals always being so firmly "fight for what`s right" show that Anakin`s temperament in and of itself wasn`t the problem. It was various aspects twisting it to a far more negative outcome. She is also the path not taken, even when Luke seems to have that story in a more overt sense.

But leave it to the ST to do a paint-by-the-numbers story of simplicitiy. They even try to frame it as Kylo having "his father`s heart" at some point. Ahahaha. Like when? He is neither like his father NOR like mother. Nor like his grandfather really.

 

Does anyone have a favorite movie critic for the ST?

Mine is Roz Weston of ET Canada. He's one of the few mainstream media critics (by that I mean a major network, not some youtuber who gained red carpet access) who was very critical of TLJ.

He thought he was gonna get roasted by SW fans but he ended up getting thanked so much in the comments section. He thought he was in the "vast minority" because he attended an advanced screening with many other journalists and critics who loved it and proclaimed it the "best SW movie". It took him a whole day to process the movie...he seemed to love it immediately after watching it and then after a couple days realized he didn't.

For episode IX I eagerly await his review. So far he has liked or loved every Disney SW except TLJ, so he isn't just some "Disney hater" guy hating on everything they do for SW.

 

well I don't have favourite reviewer just for the ST, but I like to watch the usual favourites on YT. Jeremy Jahns, Chris Stuckmann, Doug and Rob Walker can be interesting when they get together to discuss things.

Can't really remember what they all think of the ST so far though, I think the general consensus from them is 'Average'.

 

I don't think there is much sense in Anakin building C3PO.
C3PO is a protocol droid and knows tons of languages.
Even if we have Anakin the tech wizard, that does not explain how he knows all these languages or all these customs and traditions that a protocol droid needs.

Plus the reason he gives why he is building C3PO is to help his mom. Does his mom normally host dinners with visiting dignitaries that would require a protocol droid?
A droid that can wash, clean and do house-hold chores would make better sense.

With Watto is also that he is the only one that has the part in question, no explanation on how he knows this, and that there are no way to exchange republic money to local currency.
All these things are so that we can have a pod-race.

And how much sense is there for Qui-Gon to bring a small boy to a war zone?
Nor does Lucas even try to give a reason for this.
It just happens because the plot needs it.
Same with the TF removing their blockade, which Padme did not know before she went back.

I don't think making a character all-knowing and all-seeing is that much of good writing.
Because then you can excuse everything with "He foresaw it".

In fiction that deals with magic, an overused crutch is for the writer to just make up a new spell to get the characters out of trouble.
Same with superheroes, invent a new power, or with Sci-fi, invent some tech.
This can be lazy writing as the writer does not have to be creative, they can just make up stuff that solves problems instantly.

Star Trek is notorious with their techno babble.
It gets worse when it is not consistent, that this new spell, power or tech is forgotten and is not used in similar situations mater on.
Again Star Trek comes to mind as sometimes they can beam through the shields and sometimes they can't.

About Palpatine, consistency becomes an issue. Did he foresee that Padme would come to Coruscant in TPM?
If yes, was his orders to Nute and Maul just him doing things he knew would not work?
If he isn't totally omniscient then his "plan" at the start of RotS becomes rather questionable.

If Palpatine's plan was for Zam to fail twice, Jango to shoot her when captured by the Jedi, that Obi-Wan knew Dex, who could ID the dart, that Jango would fail to kill Obi-Wan but still be tracked and so on.
Yes that pretty much requires omniscience or he read the script.

I have often argued that Palpatine isn't totally omniscient and instead he has plans but can adapt to a changing situation and he can think on his feet.
Ex, I don't think he planned for Padme to come to Coruscant in TPM but when she did, he adapted and used her presence.
I also don't think he planned for much of what we see in AotC.
So far I agree with you.

I disagree with him wanting the Jedi to find the clone army at all as a) he does not need them to and b) it serves his overall plan better if they do not.
Consider, the jedi find out that Sifo-Dyas ordered the army but this was apparently after his death.
Further they learn that the template for said army has never heard of Sifo-Dyas and also happens to work for Dooku.
In all, the Jedi have lots of reasons to smell a rat and Palpatine does not want that.

The Kamino people are building an army for the republic and they will contact the senate eventually.
Once they do, he can simply tell the senate that a clone army is ready, apparently ordered by a jedi master.
If the army bill had been passed, which I think was his plan, then the clones could be deployed with little fuss and this way, the Jedi know far less. They don't know about Jango or the date mismatch.
Plus it makes the jedi seem a bit fishy to the regular people, that they ordered an army in secret without senate approval.

Are the Jedi actively searching the galaxy for Force-sensitives?
I don't recall that being said in the films.
Given that it is, well a Galaxy, that would be a full-time job for thousands of Jedi.

Instead I think it makes more sense that in the republic, a blood test is done after birth and if the midi-count is high enough then a call goes to the jedi who comes and ask if they can take the child.
That also explains why Anakin was not detected, he was born outside the republic.
Had Qui-Gon not come by then it is very likely that Anakin would have remained off the Jedi's radar and he would have grown up. Possibly he might have made money as a racer that he could have bought his and his mother's freedom.

[/QUOTE]

Again I disagree, I think the PT has far worse instances with plot contrivances.
The third act of TPM is totally dependent on contrivances, like the TF removing the blockade, leaving the fueled, armed and pre-programmed Naboo fighters alone in the place they control. Qui-Gon bringing a kid to a war zone, said kid deciding to hide in a fighter and starting to push buttons randomly.
The Jedi not sending any more Jedi than one master and one apprentice despite them saying they would use all their resources on this.

That Han found the MF could be explained that a signal is activated when the ship is in use. The MF had not flown for several years in TFA.

Since TPM established that the Force can make women pregnant and it did this apparently to kill Palpatine, then I don't see the problem.
The PT changed the Force into becoming more active and an interventionist deity.
And it does things, as I said, just to kill a man. Why it doesn't do it itself is never answered.
If the Force wanted Palpatine/the sith dead, just tell the midis in their bodies to stop reproducing.
The midi count would go down and they would get weaker and eventually die.

Did the TF remove the blockade out of coincidence?
Padme had no idea that it was gone when she decided to go back.
Did the TF leave the Naboo fighters alone out of coincidence?
Again she had no idea they would be there when she went back.

Plus the whole republic credits being of no use, no way to exchange them or Qui-Gon not doing the simple thing of going to another trader, one not Force immune, and buying stuff with his credits and use them to barter with Watto. But no, we have to have a pod race.

To me, the storytelling in the PT was far from excellent.
The ST's main flaw to me is that the two films don't work together, that things are set up in TFA and then ignored or contradicted by TLJ.
And TLJ establishes new stuff that causes TFA to make far less sense.

The PT has a better overall plan and story consistency.
But far too often the writing is contrived and things happen because the plot needs it.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

haha, true enough. @A Chorus of Disapproval

 

I find the excuses made for the coincidences in the other films funny.

The planet on which the Chosen One resides just happens to be within non-hyperdrive flying distance from Naboo, it just happens to be the one Obi-Wan decides to pick out and suggest and Qui-Gon just happens to be the ideal Jedi to take Anakin on? The coincidence about Zam, Dex, Obi-Wan and the clone army is outlined above by @Samuel Vimes. Obi-Wan finds Chebacca on Tatooine, who just so happens to have been with Yoda when Order 66 goes down. 3PO and R2 just happen to crash land close to Luke. Luke crash lands right next to Yoda's hut. There are so many instances like this in these films, and it's something I pay no real mind to. Contrivances like these are to be expected in storytelling and I generally give them a pass in films of this scale.